ArenaNet talk:Guild Wars 2 suggestions/Death penalty

Death Penalty

(This is something to change in regular guild wars as well)

In guild wars 2, please to not have death penalty that both weakens characters and makes them a target of monsters. In regular guild wars, this is often an extremely frustrating "feature", as often parties will have one person get a small bit of death penalty, than get ganged up on by monsters and killed over and over. The party as a whole may not be weak, but the individual character may often get killed over and over unless they stay far back, and they have a very hard time removing death penalty unless carefully controlled.Tambora 02:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Ignore this suggestion, this player's baed. 80.193.1.106 23:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Death penalty is what keeps people from abusing game system where dieing does not make you lose items or experience. There are plenty of items that remove DP, if you didn't pay attention at events you can always go farm Iceman dungeon for candy cans or buy consumables from npcs. Having items like this removes need to worry about DP for a casual player, but removes the possibility of heavy abuse. Biz 09:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

For people who missed out on events, or who just were playing through without wanting to go farm something to et something else, the type of death penalty I'm talking about is very frustrating. However, I'm not talking about death penalty in general, but the way that a character with death penalty often ends up in a vicious cycle of being targeted over and over, and having quite a hard time removing it (This also refers to henchmen and heroes.). The suggestion is just to have death penalty not be a monster aggro magnet in some way, not to change the actual penalty in current guild wars, and not what it should be in future guild wars.Tambora 13:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That's the point of DP, to make you not want to die -_- And that AI method is the best and most realistic option, in PvP people will try to DP you out, just like monsters do. So you're suggesting to worsen the AI(I don't care what people say about AI in games like WoW, easily controlled enemy aggro is just stupid), or make people not want to play carefully. That's a good plan. Seriously, think these things through a bit more, please :\ 71.31.149.63 19:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of mechanics that are different between PvP and PvE. In PvP, the other team will try to DP players out, but the other team will (assuming approximately evenly matched teams) also be getting DP on a player. In PvE, the players will be getting DP, but going from monster group to monster group the monsters always start at full health.

In addition, the DP=aggro magnet causes large changes in playstyle that are quite unfun and often frustrating ot deal with. If you have a team with, say, 45% total DP divided among 3 members (for whatever reason), the team will still play pretty much in the same way as a team with no DP at all. A team where one member has 30-45% DP requires that player to stay back more, avoid aggro chaining, use lots of protection abilities on themselves, etc., against enemies that in places like realm of torment, destroyer missions, etc. can 1-3 shot them, or at least take off huge fractions of health making it much harder to shed the DP. In PvP, characters running in like that makes them easier targets, but in PvE this doesn't matter all that much since the enemies have more stats and defenses, and will likely be killed anyway. It does change the playing style around significantly, and effects like aggro chaining, or spell range being about at aggro range, make it much hardero t avoid being targetted while participating in the fight.Tambora 21:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Notice the 'I' in AI. I'll assume you know what it stands for. You want AI to be smart, and having them act like a real person would is good. And if one person gets 30-45 DP and noone else has DP, that's due to them playing wrong somehow, and there should be a penalty. If you want to play more riskily, just accept that lack of tactics is going to screw you over. 71.31.149.63 20:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

DP ıs one of the things GW got right in both theory and practice. -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you guys responding actually read through the suggestions, or are you just being snooty. I've described pretty well why this is a problem, if you have nothing to actually say about why death penalty reducing defense and being an aggro magnet is fun, than please do not post.

As for the people having a lot of DP while others do not, it happens all the time with heroes and henchmen, and it also happens plenty of times that a group will start an area and, for whatever reason, not fully figure out their playing style until some time into the area, but this time leases a few players with a lot more DP than others. Tambora 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, your points have been addressed in many different ways, so the irony of you accusing others of not reading is staggering at best. Now, since you don't seem to be getting this, let me try to explain this as plainly as possible. GW has, with DP, one of the MOST lenient systems for deaths. You don't lose experience, you don't lose money, you don't lose items. Instead, you become slightly weaker until you can get a few kills to work it off. And then there are consumables, further easing recovery. If you accumulate alot more DP than your party, you need to play more carefully. If this happens with heroes, that's either you setting bad hero builds, you playing and commanding them poorly, or a problem with the hero AI. Without DP, you could play as recklessly as you wanted, as long as someone can rez you, as there would be NO PENALTY AT ALL FOR DEATH. That would be BAD, as there would be no reward for good play over bad. If GW and DP are too hard for you personally, you need to work on tactics and builds, NOT blame one of the BEST mechanics in GW. As to becoming an aggro magnet, let me explain AI for you. The ultimate goal of AI in a game like GW is to have the AI act as much like a real person as possible. Real people would go for weakened players, so monsters should also. Would it make sense for the monsters to suddenly decide that they should be merciful to a certain player because his playstyle has gotten him killed one too many times? No, of course not. It makes more sense to punish bad play(DP), and reward good play and survival(morale boosts). That is IT. The reason why DP exists, the reason why it works excellently, and the reason why noone will really care that you personally happen to become an aggro magnet far too often, because they also understand it. Next time, before you accuse me of basing my statements on elitism alone, at least try to understand why everyone disagrees with you. That may be an indication that there is some logic behind their statements, even if the statements themselves were beyond you. 71.31.149.63 19:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Since there seems to be difficulty understanding the argument from some people, I am saying, for a number of reasons mentioned above, that in PvE having death penalty both weaken a player and be an aggro magnet is a bad idea. Aggro increasing DP that does something else is o.k., DP that weakens a player is o.k., but the combination is not fun (the whiole point of the game.) The issue is not that death penalty isn't the smart thing for enemies to do, but that it is not a fun way to play (Thanks to the way it interferes with play, how the enemies remain as powerful from encounter to encounter, how some missions/areas take a long time, and sometimes players goof up at first but than work it out, etc.), and that these differences, plus some others, make this another game mechanic that should be different between PvE and PvP. Getting constantly repeated arguments of "it's realistic" don't really help that much (Which is not necessarily true, plus this is a game which is by nature unrealistic in a lot of areas.)Tambora 20:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Since you seem to still not get this, I am saying exactly why it is good. You say that DP that weakens a player is fine, but that aggro based on weakness is not fine? Are you saying that monsters should just randomly choose targets, or only attack the closest target? Any arguement you put forth comes down to playstyle, and you want poor play to not be punished, which, surely even you can agree, is a bad idea. Yes, monsters are just as powerful from one fight to the next. That would be a problem only if you use exactly the same tactics against each group. If your monk died fighting this group, maybe have them hang back a bit and throw prots up instead of wanding the boss. If they figure these(very basic) tactics out, you should not accumulate DP faster than you can work it off. So you're right, this isn't about the intelligence of monsters at all. It is about the intelligence of the players. So tell me this: would you rather your teammates be forced by the game mechanics to improve, for their own survival, or have them keep playing badly because there is no consequence for their actions? If you answer the later, I don't even know what to say, but it would involve a mixture of shock, frustration, and despair for Humanity. 71.31.149.63 20:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You must not understand the game mechanics and how aggro is handled. Having a death penalty does not grant you an additional amount of aggro. Aggro is determined by your location, HP, and damage done to the target. Usually it will attack the closest person first, then the weakest. If the weakest is not too far from the closest then the AI will pick the weakest target. DP does not draw aggro the weakest person does and if you happen to be a back line char and die now you are going to be a favored target because you have gone from "squishy" to "extra squishy." Especially for Ele and Msmr. The key is to have a good Tank that knows how to hold aggro and when you do draw aggro you kite or run to the monk until aggro drops off you. This is exactly the way was intended. If you are dying too much and are getting too much death penalty then you or your party is either not high enough level, doesn't not have good builds for what you are doing, is a bad party configuration, or you just are not very good at guild wars. Millions of people have played and beaten this game with the current system and have no issues. If you are the one having the problem and millions of other people have not then tell me what that should trigger in your mind. "Maybe it is me not doi9gn something right? Maybe I should think about how I can improve this situation?" Rather then blaming on a system which you do not like because you are not good at it. Suggestion is that the current death penalty system should stay in effect for GW2. If it isn't broken then don't fix it.

You're forgetting that DP reduces your maximum hitpoints: Aggro is determined by your location, HP, and damage done to the target.

I don't get why people have a need to comment on my playing ability, and insulting my knowledge of the game, when the description is mostly about the qualitative changes in playstyle and the annoyance/lack of fun it causes, rather than a complaint about how hard it is. If you have no point ot other other than "You must be a bad player", "it's smart A.I.", etc., you have nothing to say and should just stay out of this suggestions page. Having a mechanic that both makes a player (henchman, hero), weaker, and makes them much more targeted, is not fun in this game, and no one seems to be able to actually argue against it.Tambora 03:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether monsters can detect death penalty or merely current health, but they shouldn't be able to detect either. Players can only see their enemies' health percentages, they can't detect that a 60 DP character with a full health bar has less health than a 0 DP character with a 90% full health bar, why should monsters be able to? -- Gordon Ecker 04:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Monsters detect DP due to being able to see the human struggling more than the other players, simple. The DP will stay and they are not going to change it since in the news releases they have stated many times that DP is somthing they have got right - IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE, end discussion.

The Death Penalty system is good. The Agro System is good; annoying if you’re a backline character that is soloing with heroes and henchman, but still good and certainly not an annoyance that will bother us the same way in Guild Wars 2. I do agree that it would be a nice idea if we could disassociate them a little bit. Becoming weaker is its own punishment: it decreases your damage output (by way of attributes), energy pool, and increases how fast you’ll go down. Increasing the likely hood of you becoming the enemies favorite chew toy on top of all this is not a fair punishment since all it is doing is creating a vicious cycles. Since individually they are good systems, I’m not sure how you would go about separating them without changing them, but an attempt can be made.--Ryan Galen 15:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe if you could remove death penalty faster, it is OK in dungeons because you can get +7% off every 25 kills, in regular areas it can take hundreds if not thousands of kills to work off 60% death penalty. Hopefully if they have DP in GW2, it will be easier to remove like in GWEN dungeons. - Elder Angelus 18:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

hi, i think the dp was to harsh in gw1, and i think it should be far less, cos if my dp got to 30% i left any mission, or quest i was doing with a team, because, i think at that dp it was not worth playing anymore, i think the dp system should be totally remoddelled, like for example, like points against you, more points you have the more chance you will have a reduction in health or armour rating, but you need to die about 5 times before you get 5% reduction on your health, then another 4 times died, then 10% reduction on your health, and then this will go down to 50%, once it hits 50% and you die, then you have to take a back seat cos you cannot attack or do anything, unless you have some gold then you can pay an NPC at entry point some money to reduce your dp, or this NPC can be found at certain points on the map, instead of res shrines, now the money you pay in gw1 terms can be like 500g to 4k per 5% dp removal, this is just an example. but like i said when you get to 50% dp you cannot fight cos you have lost your ability to do that, similiar to real life if you punch someone up, then there in to much pain to move. The thing i most hated in gw1 was the fact you only had to die about 4 or 5 times before you had 60% dp, then everyone in your team would start calling you a noob, thats why i left the team when i got to 30% dp.

Having a mechanic that both makes a player (henchman, hero), weaker, and makes them much more targeted, is not fun in this game, and no one seems to be able to actually argue against it.

Those who argued against your suggestion (seem to) enjoy the way AI currently behaves. The reason they comment on your play style is because aggro is not just a product of DP, but also a result of playstyle. If you shoot yourself in the foot with your own gun, it's easier to blame the gun (and think of ways to make it better) than blame yourself (and learn to handle it more carefully). → BROWNSPANK 09:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

WHAT A DUMB SUGGESTION!!! The whole POINT of DP is to give a -PENALTY- for -DYING-. This is a very small price to pay, considering you did something wrong, causing you to die. Compared to other games, like Runescape (no, I don't play Runescape, I hate it with a vengeance) you lose everything you were carrying besides the 3 most "valuable" items. Please think before you make another stupid comment like this.

Wow...to the noob that would leave groups after only 30% DP, just quit GW man, it's not worth having a worthless player like you in the group screwing things over. Now, as for the guy who started this post, what you don't seem to understand is this: the people who are arguing AGAINST you? They have more of a valid point than you do. You seem to be basing you're argument on personal experience, and not at all considering the challenge presented IN the DP system. As stated before by my predecessors, the DP system is created solely to penalize a player, for whatever reason that it was caused in the first place. The whole idea behind DP is that if you die, you or someone in your party did something wrong, and you better learn from it, otherwise it's only going to occur AGAIN. If you're too busy whining about how you aren't having fun because of the DP system, then you won't learn anything from your initial experience, and you will have to face the same problem over and over. Be glad that said system doesn't penalize you in any other way, other than adding fatigue to your character. It may be a game, but the people who play the game strive for a reality away from reality. They play it for the sheer fact that it creates a realistic, yet virtual world. So the best way to create that realism is by making a smart system, one that runs in a similar, but artificial, path to a human reasoning and intelligence, hence the name AI. It's only right for that system to punish a person for their lack of survival, and to reward them for constant survival. If you can't deal with it, go play Pac-Man or Tetris until you understand AI.

Hmm. Many have said and I agree, the DP system is perfect as it is. If you find you're getting too much DP resulting on a character(s) in your party, be it real players, heroes, or henchmen, then that player is doing something wrong - be it their build, their armor, their positional play, or not understanding the area that they are in. If your worry is the heroes & henchmen (H&H), then eqiup the heroes properly, choose the correct ones for the area, reconsider their builds. The H&H AI system has already been tweaked a few times and really, truly only bad play from the party leader is going to cause a lot of DP, altho having a few pints of beer can have the same result no matter how good your are ;) But seriously to Tambora, have a look at how your party is made up and see if you are running a good combination of skills, synergy between skill builds is very important. The DP system is fine as it is, and is really the last thing in GW's that needs any attention from the Developers at this stage.--Shaia 08:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh right, to answer the question of FUN! Well, avoiding major DP and succeeding in the mission with flying colours is certainly more FUN than making something too easy! If you're leaving a party when you have 30% DP and cannot relish the prospect of fighting your way back from the DP, then I don't see how you're having FUN! I'm sorry, do you want a god-mode as well? The DP/Aggro mechanism makes things more challenging, more interesting, and more FUN! If you can only have FUN when something is easy, well, pick another game if you think that GW's is too hard for you. If you have the correct builds and address aggro correctly while playing, you won't have to worry about DP at all. And then the only places you will possibly get DP is in HM anyways, NM is waaaaay too easy to play now. All I can say is, your method of playing is frustrating you if you are continuously finding yourself under the effects of DP. --Shaia 08:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

DP is fine. Bloody hell. If you are having issues with the fun:difficulty ratio, then go play morrowind, slider the bar to easy, make yourself level 800 and use console to kill everyone who looks at you funny. Otherwise, select an issue that is an actual issue. 00:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

DP is fine, but cheating AI is not fine. If monsters can read their foes' DP or current health then players should be able to do the same. -- Gordon Ecker 00:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Rofl. DP is absolutely FINE. I only play on HM beause the game is so, so easy; in fact I would prefer a more strict DP system in GW2. That way there would be less... noobs to deal with. I think the real problem here is that people(and you know which ones I'm talking about) have never learned to kite/tank/escape/ctrl+T targets. Also remember that same AI is play for you(Heros and Henchies). King Bazaah 13:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Aside from anything else, there has to be a penalty for dying. In most online RPGS it's an experience/gold penalty. Let me just say hell no to that, this is temporary and easily fixed. I like DP, and when compared to alternatives, I want it kept. - HeWhoIsPale 13:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

AI doesn't have to cheat to target a character with dp. When I play, I go after the targets that I can damage the most quickest or the targets that will use skills to stop my damage having decent effects. I also avoid the enemies that are the biggest threats to my health unless its my job to keep them busy. As far as I'm concerned a dead enemy should stay dead and I go after them before they recover. I won't pass up an enemy that I can kill in 3 hits to tackle an enemy that might get full health healing by the same 3 hits and I like the AI being smart enough not to pass up on an easy kill when it detects 1. --Don Knowall 11:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree; although the DP system is mostly good, I completely agree that penalizing a player more for having extra DP is not fun. In PvP with repeat encounters, it makes perfect sense to pick on the person who has more DP (which you only know if you've been paying close attention anyway). It makes no sense that the monsters immediately pick on whoever has the lowest health when it's impossible to see that as a player. It's also frustrating to die repeatedly, literally because you have a penalty. It's like debtor's prison; you'll never get out because you can't work it off.Miss Innocent 16:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with DP at all. Be glad that you can accually spawn an unlimited amount of lives so you can work your way around the enemies by picking them off one by one. Sure it may take all night, but there wouldn't be any fun without it. Would you really want a game that allows you to run through it continuously without taking any damage? You may say yes, but I can bet you that you'd get bored and quit the game within a few days. 76.240.199.123 05:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC) If there was no DP there would be no need for tactics other than throwing yourself at the enemy, getting rez'd, and doing that until you win which ultimately makes the game BORING......

--This conversation has been going on too long. I feel ashamed to be adding to it but let me summarize for all of those who skipped it the end, Theauthor of this chunk says that DP combined with Aggro is too harsh in GW, the many other entrants to the atricle are spazzing because they think they are the kings of the gamaing world. It is as simple as this, Do you like an easy game or a challanging game. If you enjoy the challange of staying alive and fighting hard to do so, yay keep steep agro and DP rates. ->OR<- if you prefer the story line and furthering you character as the challange, then lower both. Its a matter of preferance stop fighting about it.

Actually, I disagree with the summary as well. I like the storyline of Guild Wars yet I like our current DP system; I like to improve my character as I play (mostly thanks to learning to play, which IMO is how a character should be improved in any game), yet I like the current DP system. Besides, I disagree it's just a matter of preference: removing DP would have a bad impact on the game. It would reduce the game's difficulty to a bare minimum, and thus it would allow players to play through the entire game faster, and therefore Arena Net would have to find trick ways for players to continue playing the game, and so we would end with more grind. Making it short, no DP = easier game = shorter game = more grind. Erasculio 22:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Hm, let's see, DP one of the most lenient and casual friendly penalties for dying in a game. Please, compare it to just about 'any game's treatment of death, not just other MMOs. MMos use: XP loss, gold loss, needing to get all your carried and equipped items back from your corpse, and some kind of stat/hp/mp penalty. (Though from my brief experience playing LORTO, there's was barely a noticeable penalty at all.) The general idea for this kind of mechanic it to keep you playing more since you have to recover lost gold/exp/stats/etc. Non-MMOs have generally have a save feature of some kind. (Most FPS games I've played have little to no penalty for dying but since those kinds of games are more orientated to kill:death ratios in multiplayer, dying itself if the penalty). Here, the player is usually required to redo everything since their last save, and while some allow you to save at anytime, not many people want or choose to save every 2 seconds and can still keep a player "stuck" at parts.
DP in Guild Wars is gone the moment you step into an outpost or after you earn enough exp where you are to keep going. Too weak to complete the quest or task because of DP, go back to town and your penalty is now gone. (Mind you, it's usually still *possible* to complete everything with some DP, if not max DP) It's also a mechanic that creates a penalty that works well in PvE and PvP. Nor has anyone with dislike of the current system really presented anything other than make it penalize a player less. Which really stops it from being a penalty. 75.146.48.190 20:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well after trying to fight my way through Lornars pass instead of running it I managed to hit the -60 limit. It wasn't much fun to keep running back towards snake dance (6+ minutes) to take out half a group and be rezzed again right outside beacons perch. At least it taught me the game mechanics of running from a mob and finding the sweet spot where mobs turn tail and scarper. Result: I now have my hero's set behind that point and my lesser skilled henchies in front and every one of them deserves a meat-shield medal. Still, I have now completed factions, nightfall and EoTN and the whole death penalty thing does bug me. Usually because I forgot to pack my sandwiches (or candy-canes or whatever). I wouldn't object to losing a bit of XP when I die (does it serve a purpose after you've hit lvl 20?) or maybe a small amount of gold (roughly about the same as the monsters drop?). Removing up to 60% of your health and energy just makes things frustrating though; especially when I got into Snake Dance and a group of Dolyaks proceeded to repeatedly mug me at the rez shrine. At a rate of one critter down per 2/3 rezzes I left the henchies to it and rediscovered the TV. Your arguments that other games are more severe are pointless. We are not talking about other games, we are suggesting improvements to GW gamplay for the possibility of inclusion into GW2. I would prefer to lose some gold or maybe have a system for DP which is like exhaustion. The objective-based removal idea falls down at the first hurdle. If you're going to get some DP removed for completing an objective, what happens if you can't complete that objective because of DP? Time-based DP removal is surely the way to go. That's my $0.02 worth anyway.

moved from /scratchpad

→ moved from ArenaNet:Guild_Wars_2_suggestions

• Death penalty: I know theres a good chance the 'death penalty' will be included in GW2. I think the concept of this isn't bad- just that it accumulates WAY to fast and dosn't go down fast enough either. I found this very frustrating in GW1 when missions and quests became seemingly impossible and I was forced to start over. I beleive the death penalty should go up a little slower and down a lot faster. This idea could also be incorperated into GW1.

Objective-based DP removal and DP removal shrines

I like this idea, and I like it alot. It wouldn't be much different than normal gameplay, Morale Boosts and experience already decrease DP, and consumables remove it as well. In GW2, they could create a bundle that spawns that decreases DP when dropped, or maybe a shrine that takes some off every few seconds. Keep DP, but add in some mechanics like these to help those who need it, so it won't affect everyone. Arcdash 18:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Many players don't think consumables belong in the game due to grind. -- Gordon Ecker 00:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)