ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/Shadow Form

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Ryudo's Discussion

I dont think too many people can argue against this one, but Im sure they will come...--Ryudo 07:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I would normally defend sin skills but........., Ya this needs to be nerfed this skill is ftl seriously.-- Ninja Dragon 07:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, all sorts of crazy suggestions and then the obvious one. Reducing the duration by one second makes it not maintainable. -- Armond Warblade 07:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

oh, so the sin just steps away for one second to reapply....being vurnable to attack for 1 second every mintue is hardly what I call balanced.--Ryudo 07:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

If they're bad enough to be running perma-shadow form, they'll be bad enough to not realize they should back off for that second, and will therefore be vulnerable to dshot. But yeah, that's not a good enough fix. :P -- Armond Warblade 07:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Could make it a pve only skill too......... -- Ninja Dragon 08:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Best way to fix it would be to make it into a stance.

Its called Shadow Form, so why not make it a Form, you can't echo those Ajax Baby Eater 17:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Which Sin has enough energy for this combination? ^^ I like the idea of changing it into a Form and maybe buff a bit the health loss at the end. Otherwise it could be too bad, but I'm not sure. A. von Rin 01:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Protip: Radiant insignias plus a staff gives you lots of energy. --71.229.204.25 01:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't really serious about that, but ty Mr. Pro... o.O A. von Rin

After Deadly Paradox was nerfed this skill hasn't been much of a problem. I suggest leaving the skill alone. --Shadetz X 09:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of builds that renders someone virtually immortal, and all these builds require soooooooooo much into thier defense that thier offense is often crap. PERMA SF sins arent overpowered, they are just ANNOYING! 76.26.189.65 20:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is this still is viable for griefing. It would be better if it stopped direct spell damage (Eles), had 75-90% block and didn't make spells fail. --Life Infusion «T» 04:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

lern2shock imo --71.229.204.25 04:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

making it a skill instead of spell would counter the combination with arcane echo , wich is , imo , already enough for this skill 189.70.149.39 20:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

agreeing on user:71.229.204.25 ("learn to shock arc. echo on reflex"), there are enough counters...can't see any situation where it'd be really broken despite parties who throw out utility and counter-skills for more offense/defense/heal. If this is about RAing, that Shadowformer loses after the timer anyway (plus there's always possibility to ragequit and re-enter, dishonored is like only 10mins idling anyway).

If nerfing this, at least do not break any current skills "just to delete an annoying skillbar". Maybe annoying, but not overpowered. 91.152.187.29 20:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Or you can make it an acutal Form...like the dervish have...since they cant echo something that's not a spell. Just a suggetion. This typically isn't removed anyway. 74.229.66.241 20:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm they could but they could make it a skill just as well. Dark Morphon(contribs) 17:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The skill type should not be changed, that would ruin farming builds that use the 20% enchanting mod... :/ Ironboot 13:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Right now as its good as it is. Perma-shadow requires skill and to achieve it you pretty much have no room for offensive. I see this in RA from time to time and they either fail it or hardly are a threat. 201.174.198.152 21:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see this as much of a threat, since you can Leech Sig it, shock it, Ancestors Rage through it, Frozen Burst through it, etc... Usually they eventually die. An interesting mechanism would be to change so that attacks don't "miss", but are "blocked". This doesn't nerf perma-shadow farm unless the boss/mobs use unblockable attacks, and allows more options for interupt in PvP (I.E. Magebane, Dhsot + Guidance, Guided Weapon, etc). --Angelic Loki 01:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Problem with the previous statement is that Shadow Form is used in places where even if you can block (aka Critical Defenses) you are still going to die. One example is the Ravenheart Gloom, where the degen and hexes will kill you. Outside of projectiles like Lightning Orb, you can't exactly "block" spells either. 200.94.163.166 03:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Youre forgetting that thats a 75 % block chance not a 100 % also you can still be the target if a spell with only that.Lilondra 11:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You guys misread my statement, its probably my fault for not clarifying. The mechanic of the spell wouldn't change. It would still give you spell immunity, so Degen and Hex's wouldn't be a problem. The only thing that would change would be that "Unblockable" attacks would hit. --Angelic Loki 10:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thats precisely what I meant, the fact that all sorts of spells will still hurt and kill you. 201.174.197.213 19:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it should make you invincible. owait. 72.199.26.35 18:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Just make it a skill. Moush 22:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This skill could changed to something like

"Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5..7..10 seconds you have 100% to block attacks and have +8 health regeneration." 10e 1/2c 20r This way, skills that are unblockable hit and the assassin can survive Prokiller88 05:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The immunity to spells isn't OP, and the fact that you can echo it is annoying at best. If you guys insist on nerfing this skill, the only thing that needs to be changed about it is changing the fact that attacks "miss" to attacks being "blocked" for the reasons the posted above me specified. Unblockable attacks would still hit. Then you have tons more options to work with on how to interupt/disable the skill. Keep the spell immunity, as thats what makes the skill worth using.--Angelic Loki 20:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

you guys are over nerfing a bad skill, to keep shadow form on 100% of the time you need like 4~5 skills, which then doesnt leave much for attacking. ive already said it before SF isnt OP its just annoying 76.26.189.65 15:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm leaning more on making this a form skill. Fixes every problem, and keeps it good for pve. -- nuke7 File:Nuclear7 sig image2.jpg 00:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreement, had the same idea for making this a form skill without looking at this page. No arcane mimicry, no enchantment lengthening, and ideally a forced disable effect when cast successfully (so no paradox). Makes it totally unremovable, granted, but it pretty much was anyway. --Ckal Ktak 21:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It also doesn't fuck up the skill for pve, mind. That's one of the things devs were trying to do. NUKLEAR IIV 14:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

To not screw this up for pve, you need to be able to echo it for shadow form tanking... which is a problem. Basically, shadow form tanks, as far as I know, are the only sin build with even a remote chance of getting into elite areas. Nerf it, and then we'll really need a pve rework to give them a chance of getting in again. That said, I can't stand this skill in pvp. Make it pve only, and give us a new, useful pressuring elite to change the playstyle a bit. --Kalas Silvern 23:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

echo shadow form should not be viable anywhere, period. It makes a joke of pve. We try to keep pve from becoming less of a joke. You want to have sins in your DoA group? /sarcasm QQ moar, izzy intended sins to be worthless glass canons in pve and horribly broken gankers in pvp. Play ursan with ur sin. /sarcasm -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for what I'm taking to be support of making sins better in PvE. On the other hand, they can annihilate this skill in pvp now- it won't affect PvE. Nerf away. --Kalas Silvern 04:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't support. Sins suck in PvE, tanks suck in PvE, and until sins get their one-hit-kill skill for PvE, they're not going to be worth bringing pretty much anywhere serious. -- Armond Warblade 06:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Who cares though, right, armond? Sins are for pve scrubs to use for looking cool and retarded while being worthless in pve. They weren't meant for pve. They were meant for PvP. Again, the problem of bad planing emerges to the surface. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree and say a good sin is great- for normal mode. And for normal areas, thanks to moebius and critical agility. And that's also my problem, and why I took it as support- sins suck in high end pve, so make them better there. I'm also going to disagree that tanks suck- once again, low end pvp (normal mode missions, etc) they do. Elite areas, most groups need them. If I haven't said it yet, I hate the idea of tank and spank. I wish they'd rebalance them so it wasn't necessary, but I doubt that'll happen, so I make do with the idea of buffing sins for pve. And with the new separation between pve and pvp, I was expressing hope (I know, hope is overrated when it comes to balances) that there would be change. Then again, change seems to be anathema to this community, so it's highly likely nothing will be done. If you're too lazy to read that, here's the short version- with the recent split, maybe they can finally fix sins in pve without breaking pvp. --Kalas Silvern 03:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

*shrug* Yeah, except pretty much anything works in normal mode. I've won Hell's using four fire eles, a warrior spamming flare, and an eliteless ranger that didn't bring winter like we asked. I agree, though; any time it looks like change may be made, it just doesn't happen. These talk pages are a perfect example. -- Armond Warblade 15:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

hopefully they deal with this skill in pvp now, now that theyre basically beta testing the split skills thing on us. i hope they murder this skill.24.47.18.113 04:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Change it into a form. Like the dervish avatar forms, with similar recharge. --Lann 00:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing is wrong with this skill, an assassin have it really hard in PvE to be chosen on a team, but they can do a little solo with that skill, the skill can mostly be used as a farming skill and not as a general PvE skill, because the monsters there can be found in PvE can easily kill in case of monster skills or touching skill, if this skill will get removed from Guild Wars will the assassin profession die, Shadowform is the only skill there can let an assassin farm.. ~~Pup Pup talk 09:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

And noone mentioned the skill's deletion. Take SF UW farm build again (A/E) that needed 15-20 seconds of SF. 86.101.55.163 19:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Once again Anet protects their precious game, Oh wait , I paid for it. I agree with Rezzdog. I was really hoping to make up for lost time on GW and fill my hall for GW2. This nerf was all about the oldskool snobs hating on newer players. Waaaaaaaaaaaa Ectos dropped. My armor isn't as leet. Same garbage from the same crowd. Lets have some real fun. Lets push for Anet to nerf protective spirit. Say, 50% health loss vs. 10%? Lets watch the 600 smite teams cry a little too. PVE economy should not be an issue to the developers. DEMAND should be the only pricing factor. After all, when ectos dropped shards went way up. Once again Anet failed to see the entire equation because of whiners.

Gelei's Disscusion

Wow...this is the first good suggestion on this skill ive seen. (the elite stance thing that is) it would solve the problem for pvp and pve at the same time. in pvp, it would be unable to be perma-d, but in pve, it can, granted you get rank 9 in dwarven stability (with the 16 shadow) you could perma it. this would actually make farming easier for those who have it (1 less skill needed ftw) but it owuld take a while to get the rank. File:Joshthorsig.jpgJoshThor Talk 17:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

oh, but your skill change on the dying nightmares is retarded. switching a skill for a skill that is specifically made to counter two skills? thats really really retarded.

Corrected it just for fun, but now it's unnecessary anyway Gelei 12:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

July 02 changes

Pretty good comprises i think, you think this will cause Superior shadow rune to be buyable from the trader again?--Metal Sazz 02:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah Gelei 12:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Yo ich halt's issue

→ moved from ArenaNet:Skill feedback/Assassin/Shadow Form

Personal Responce from just some player:I disapprove. For one thing: Dark Escape would Outclass it greatly. Haveing it end when you deal dmg is the same as Dark escape.the only thing that would make this better is the attacks miss. Two:Your making this up. For one thing, your saying its abused for tanking but yet I've never seen it ussed that way in either PvP or PvE.I've even asked my entire alliance and they say they've never seen it being used that way. Third: You're also saying thats its abused for Farming. Not true. There are only around 6 Farms for this that are oftenly farmed. the major one is UW. You have my Feedback, now wait for Izzys on your suggestion.*Sharingaun Dervish* 70.121.168.43 00:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe they should change it to:

• 50, 10, 90 "Elite Enchantment Spell. For 0...0...1 seconds, you cannot be targeted by hostile spells and all attacks towards you miss. This spell is easily interruptible. If interrupted, you take 999 damage and all allies resurrection attempts at you fail.

Sounds alot more reasonable, don'cha think? Smiter's Boon style assassination! --Ulterion 17:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

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1. "...Personal Responce from just some player:I disapprove" - not sure "disapprove" is the right word - It's not like that anyone will follow your order.

2. "... but yet I've never seen it ussed that way in either PvP or PvE.I've even asked my entire alliance and they say they've never seen it being used that way ..." I think you should play a bit more, and maybe you should ask your alliance again.

3. It's not my business but you might have misspelled "Sharringan" =@) Mushin 22:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Mushin

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yes, it was logically made up, because all sf was good for after the first nerf was tanking and running, which is exactly what i did until i was bored of pve again. i didn't notice i accidentally made it an elite dark escape. well, the main point was making it not invinci, mainly by not letting all spells simply fail to make it viable in pvp also (on the other hand, it will always be a tank skill ike this, so no pvp). then i made it a stance so it wouldn't be as easy to strip as before. - Y0_ich_halt 12:25, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

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Shadow form (pve) is clearly an overpowered skill - just look at how ppl are using it as a running/tanking in UW speed run or VS farming Mushin 22:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Mushin

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Vigilant Recondite. "I wish they they would give us at least 5 seconds longer on shadow form. Taking 10 seconds away made it near impossible to do some of what we Perma sin used it for. They made skills for bosses to get through and other creatures so it is not invincible in PvE. While some people say that Perm Sin farming lower the price on some things, it also raises the price on other things. The perm sin usually ends up spending that money on things for other characters the person has. Personally I wish they would just put Shadow Form back to how it was and leave it be. Changes to make skills less useful while there are worthless unusable skills out there makes me really not want to buy GW2. 76.88.231.7 02:59, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Chaos Messenger's issue

In addition to being abused in solo farming builds, Shadow Form is also used by assassins in parties. If you want to kill it for solo farming, IMO a better option would be to increase the damage reduction and, if necessary, add additional drawbacks, such as preventing hexes from being cast. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 05:59, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, being a Shadow causes you not to be physical so stuff like "you can't deal damage" would be just suitable for the name.

Couldn't a Defy Pain tank and a Bonder just take all the damage together? --Chaos Messenger 10:19, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Ninjas In The Sky's Issue

→ moved from ArenaNet:Skill feedback/Assassin/Shadow Form

Just a players Feedback:

First Suggestion:Your suggesting to make a Normal Skill and ban it from High end PvE whilst Ursan is'nt. Very unreasonbable and I see no need to do that. Forms are unquie to Dervishs only(With the exception of Blessings) and thus should'nt be a form.

Second Suggestion:Dude...that just means your gonna make it permanyly Maintainable with out extention spells and Stances. That would make it Extremly Abbused by PvE Farmers and allow for Easier Farms.one word to that. NO.

Third Sugestion. I see some use in this. however that would make it usless within PvE mainly because then Flashing Blades would be better cuase it deals damage whilst Blocking.And because Flashing blades can't be interuppted cause its a stance mkaes it better in two ways.

Sincerly: Sharingaun Dervish. 70.121.168.43 00:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

What gets me the most is the developer's notes specifically say why this skill was changed AGAIN. Because the Permasins that farm in the Underworld were too good and making money too fast. My suggestion would be put the skill back the way it was, and do something like they did with the Crystal Desert. Totally rework the area that is the problem. The monsters in that one zone in the desert got completely rewritten in a lore-friendly, interesting way. Face it. UW is a core area, but was NEVER designed to cope with skills from 3 campaigns and an expansion. It needs a serious rework anyway. Guildwarsrunner 23:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Birthday

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHADOW FORM! Boro 17:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

123.200

That suggestion sucks. It would make it an useless skill. Boro 07:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

What's the difference? ~Shard 07:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Assassins have a lot of spells. Removing the possibility of using all of them for a long time is not a good choice. MithTalk 08:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, no one wants a tank that nearly dies several times a minute even when played correctly. There are better ways to nerf Shadow Form. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 05:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

How will preventing assassins from using spells hinder their 100% invincibility to everything? ~Shard 06:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Because their 100% invincibility to nearly everything is contingent upon their ability to recast a specificy spell before it expires. If a fight lasts too long, a protection monk would be needed to keep the assassin alive during Shadow Form's downtime. Shadow Form needs a nerf, but monks already have too little competition in PvE, and they don't need "keeping perma-SF tanks alive" added to the list of things they do far better than any other profession. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 07:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Most importantly, the 'original' usage of shadow form was to get into enemy lines, deal as much damage as possible as possible and leave before SF expires. Without being able to cast spells, that can only be done with recall and a couple of stances, leaving out almost all other shadow steps. MithTalk 12:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It should have a shadow step in this case when shadow form ends. Other idea is to remove the end effect. Boro 19:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The huge final downside is what makes it undesirable if it can't be maintained 100% of the time for normal gameplay. MithTalk 20:28, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Tanks are useful because they can stay in front, holding aggro and keeping the enemy damage dealers away from the [[|squishy|squishies]]. A professionn which can only serve as a part-time tank can't compete which professions which can serve as full-time tanks, such as warriors, dervishes and, in areas where enchantment removal doesn't prevent their gimmicks from working, monks. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 07:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The thing is that assassins are not tanks. If players don't know how to use an assassin, they should learn to. In the same way you don't make an elementalist to heal, but to deal damage and/or give some party support, you make an assassin to get behind enemy lines and take out bothersome enemies as soon as possible, not to tank. MithTalk 08:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Assassins are supposed to work by quickly spiking, and by denying opponents the ability to react at critical moments. This works great in PvP because the opponents are smart (at least the non-noobs are) and fragile, making both spiking and reaction denial tactically valuable. In PvE, the opponents are stupid and resilient, making spiking and reaction denial less useful. Non-SF assassins have the same problem in PvE that mesmers did before they became competitive as AoE nukers. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 09:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I guess dealing 250+ damages with a scythe is not competitive enough (/sarcasm) -- Boro 11:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I forgot about about that build, but it's far less reliable than the caster counterparts. Discord / Necrosis and SS / Necrosis don't work well in areas with heavy debuff removal, while cryway and Ray of Judgment work pretty much anywhere. Critical scythe lose considerable damage in areas with heavy blocking, weakness, blindness, enchantment removal or hex removal. Is it disgustingly overpowered in the many areas in which it does work? I'm pretty sure it is, but I don't think that having an overpowered build in some areas justifies being stuck with nothing but underpowered builds in other areas, which is why I think that Shadow Form should either be nerfed in a way which allows perma-SF assassins to remain competitive as tanks or reworked to give assassins damage, survivability and reliability comparable to casters, I have some specific ideas, but I'm saving them for the feedback namespace due to the suggestion freeze. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 03:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)