Feedback talk:Skill update previews/20100121

Preliminary Skill update note 21 Jan/10

→ moved from Feedback_talk:Regina_Buenaobra/Journal

Wow big changes, all i got to say is "ouch" to Mirror of ice and stuff like recuperation and "stand your ground" can't wait to see the pve changes--BobbyT 22:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

2sec cast time for mirror is enough imo, maybe 10energy but not 25 oO 91.65.110.65 23:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

They're talking about either 15 or 25. 25 will effectively Smiter's Boon it, but hopefully they'll stick with 15 and a 2 second cast. Karate Jesus 23:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) No need to nerf Glass arrows either. I can't really think of anything that would work by changing it. Dual ranger/para is part of the meta right now, and there's no real way to counter them....however, breaking a few skills won't necessarily fix it. They'll just exploit something else. Perhaps a Go For The Eyes! change, even though that's basically a paragons energy management. Or maybe something that makes the bonus glass arrows damage conditional. -- Dee Strongfist 23:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Why not just add the damage on top of normal damage like what was done to Conjures since it's aggravating to prot against and then add in effectiveness vs armor. Still a usable damage addition but not "That hit under 60 and triggered RoF with the MoI." Deni Wins 23:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Good idea, actually. Separate packets make it harder to prot against. The bonus damage can be armor ignoring, but if it's added with the damage of the spell, things like SB, and RoF would be more effective versus it. -- Dee Strongfist 23:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Mirror of Ice - 25e 5s duration 90s recharge, change description to "lol" 68.161.152.47 23:25, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to see Mirror of Ice in PvE, someway, because it's an amazingly fun to use skill, inside PvE, with a couple of changes, but same general function it'd still be seen in PvE, thus the game. 124.187.92.66 23:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Just revert it to the original function rather than smiters boon it--Underwood 00:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

i think the duration should be effected along with a 2s cast, +2 sec for every point in Energy storage instead of 3, giving it only a 29s, need to cast more often which would also make it more vulnerable to disruption, and maybe 10/15 energy to boot--BobbyT 00:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

every 2 ranks 5sec would be fine ..that way you could still use some utility (dont kill it) 91.65.110.65 00:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Why not kill it ? What exactly is the reasoning behind giving water magic a attribute that has had little to no spike damage before Mirror of ice 100 damage spike skills ? Why should defensive characters be able to snare AND spike aswell ? Lilondra 11:43, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I know it's tough to grasp, but you don't need to kill skills to stop that from happening. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Water Magic isn't the place to add more damage on top of it's utility. InfestedHydralisk 22:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Whose saids that this line shouldn't alot of damage, it just should be harder to do thats all, personally it should be either maintainable but hard to cast, or have of at least 50-60% downtime saving and only be able to spike when it's up--BobbyT 03:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

120 damage shard storm, we dont want that InfestedHydralisk 04:50, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Ranged Spike/Damage in GvG

"Part of what makes these ranged teams overpowered is their survivability, typically enabled by Paragons. So in addition, we're revising "Stand Your Ground!" (PvP) so that the effect ends when a character attacks."
"Stand Your Ground!" (PvP) - 15 30 - Shout. For 5...17...20 seconds, all party members within earshot receive +24 armor when not moving. Ends on a party member if that party member attacks.
I am curious as to how removing the extra defense on hard targets while leaving it on soft targets will work well. We are talking about, more or less, the same change that was made to Weapon of Warding - you've narrowed down its area of application from "everywhere" to "everywhere that it needs to be". Is that really an effective nerf? is for Raine, etc. 03:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This, togheter with the r-spike skills nerf and also mirror of ice nerf is enough. It all affects the same build. Just this skill might not be enough, but all the cumulative changes considered it'll be fine imo. 88.159.236.245 09:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

In before wyn tells us to stop suggesting stuff

Glass Arrows : Elite Preparation. For 5...15...18 seconds, your arrows strike for +3...9...11 damage if they hit and cause Bleeding for 10...22...25 seconds to target and all nearby foes if they are Blocked. 5 2 12
Anthem of Envy : Chant. For 10 seconds, the next time each ally hits a foe with more then 50% health in melee that ally deals +7...15...17 damage. 5 1 5

Mirror of Ice: Elite Enchantment Spell.For 3 seconds target other ally is enchanted with Mirror of Ice.When this Enchantment ends all foes nearby target other ally take 5...45...55 damage and move 66% slower for 1...5...6 seconds. 10 1 12
imo Lilondra 11:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

No. Pika Fan 12:17, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

agreeing with user pika fan your suggestion of glass arrows is inferior to Expert Focus 127.0.0.1 12:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Its supposed to be a kill Lilondra 15:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Honestly i think that the nerf on "Stand Your Ground!" (PvP) is kinda dumb. I aggree that Rspike is a bit overpowered and needs to be toned down, but making it end on attack will make it completely useless to paragons. I think you should try a different approach here honestly. Just my 2 cents. 71.193.48.146 16:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Its more the fact that it promotes not kiting and can't be removed.+24AL is alot of reduction (can't be bothered to calculate but I'm guessing its around 30%)Lilondra 19:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

well if not kiting is the smarter thing to do then thats fine, i honestly dont know how why the promotion of not kiting would be bad if you dont actually need to do it, I just think that making a skill completely useless for its own proffession is a bad idea 71.193.48.146 19:59, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Every 40 additional armor decreases the damage received by half (it's a lot more complicated than that but essentially that's the effect), so a 30% estimate would be pretty accurate. Possibly a little low--TahiriVeila 20:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

"kill"

nty, it's an elite skill not a pinata for GvGers to break because they got beat by it. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, haven't you guys heard elites can ignore basic concepts of game balance (namely, "balance") just because they're elite? -Auron 04:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Exactly you guys. Cuz thers no way at all to deal with that super leet uber haxx overpowered 35 damage. O.O 71.193.48.146 06:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Glass Arrows : Elite Bow Attack.

10 0 15 Deals 1...6...7+ piercing damage. Causes bleeding for 5...17...20 seconds. If Target foe is already bleeding causes Deep Wound for 5...9...10 seconds. Changing GA from a prep to an attack with an activation time of Pin Down will lower the spike power, along with the reduced activation of the other rspike attacks. This also gives rangers an option for deepwound, which unless using pets, was unobtainable. Aslong as the activation times were kept in check, making this an attack skill vs. a prep skill wont buff rspike, and brings the skills function to what rangers are used for the most, condition spreading. Changing it to this also keeps it a viable option for smaller PvP like Random Arena and Codex Arena.HawtMonkie

You can change the skill functionality. The answer to balancing is figuring out how to keep the skill actually elite while keeping it not overly powerful wherever it's causing a problem. Instead of smiter's booning everything because enough people said it was OP. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather compare MoI,GA or any OP skill to a frenchie that has been abused far to much now and just wants to get back to his old life.Lilondra 06:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

But Alice WAIT!! havent you heard?!? Smiter's boon'ing is now an acceptable practice. 71.193.48.146 10:52, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The miserable part is that whatever skills they boon will never be seen as an actually functioning skill again. I know this because psychology. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Rangers don't need deep wound. Paras don't need deep wound. Casters don't need deep wound. Melee needs deep wound. Period. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 08:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Blood Spike

"First, and most dramatically, we're changing several defensive skills to work against life stealing. (They will continue to work against normal damage as well.) The skills we're looking at are: Reversal of Fortune, Life Sheath, Shielding Hands, Vengeful Weapon, Weapon of Remedy, and Union."
I'm going to say now that I don't expect the protection prayers changes to be exceptionally great. They will be better (than the current nothing), yes, but certainly not effective. For starters, let's look at RoF and Life Sheath. They have a 10-second duration and a 2-second recharge. A spike occurs over 1-2 seconds (FC bloodspike, after these changes, would occur over 1.25 seconds). In order to have it recharged fast enough to be used more than once on a spike, you'd have to RoF/LS a target a second before the spike hits, which is more or less the instant that the mesmers begin casting whatever spell they lead with. Short of that, we're talking about negating one packet of lifesteal on each spike - that's enough to stop a spike from being lethal, but it will still need to be infused, so it's really doing very little to take any pressure off of the heal monk.
Shielding Hands is a better-intended change, but I think it is poorly thought-out. Before we look at Shielding Hands, let's look at Guardian, which is the most common prot in Guild Wars, and for a good reason. Guardian can be applied every 5 seconds, and it stops damage that, in balanced scenarios, can only really be inflicted on targets that are adjacent to that damage source. An attacker has five seconds to move to and deal damage to a new target before a new Guardian can be applied. Now let's look at Shielding Hands. It's reapplication period is fifteen seconds. A bspike caller has fifteen seconds not to move to and begin attacking another target, but to press tab. Shielding Hands just won't keep up.
While these changes are better than nothing, effectively protting bspike will, imo, continue to be something said as a joke. :\ is for Raine, etc. 02:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, the changes to counter bloodspike are not needed. Weapon spells do too much already. So does life sheath. Why not fix bloodspike instead of buffing counters? This is just going to create more power creep, and decrease the number of viable skills. You're removing more skills from the game by countering bloodspike instead of balancing life stealing. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 02:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Removing more skills from the game? Like what? The same few skills that will still be used before and after the buffs? Don't give poor reasoning for supporting a fact. It's like saying hexes are overpowered because there are many of them in the game.Pika Fan 03:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Also I don't see why you can't give SoA the same treatment as SH to at least give another option to reduce BSpike damage? 209.89.252.164 06:06, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

SH is way more common in GvG than SoA; anet doesn't really look at HA, unfortunately. :\ is for Raine, etc. 07:47, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Think of the poor monsters who'd be trying to vamp some farmer with SoA... =[ 24.197.253.243 08:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Hello? We are talking about PvP, not PvE so go away and die farming yourself silly full of ectos somewhere else. Pika Fan 08:24, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Well RC is going to be once again the tortoise to LS's hare. Also add in (if there are any being used) rit elites other than WoR/XW. They both have like 50 different functions, and now we're adding even more to WoR. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 08:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

ur hilarys, you DO realize that condition removal isn't a problem going up against bloodspike, which means LS and RoF are on the same level as each other against bloodspike? Why would LS be suddenly much better than RC after the buff since RoF has always been found on RC monk bars? Also, I am not interested in the part where you talk about WoR/XW, it has nothing to do with what I am sounding you out for, so stop bringing in unrelated arguments. Pika Fan 08:43, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

From the bottom then. First of all, I really don't care what you're sounding me out for, let's get that straight early on. Second, WoR is part of this discussion, because after this it will have more functions than almost any other skill in the game, making other rit elites even more obsolete. I mentioned XW because it's similar. Also, you're missing my point. My point is that nobody will run RC, because LS does more. Your silly argument about "RoF has always been found on RC monk bars" just proves my point. Nobody is going to take RC and RoF, because LS rolls it all into one, and saves you a skill slot. This isn't what ruined RC, but this is the icing on the cake. Also, where did I say that condition removal is important against bloodspike? You can point me to that, if you find it. You can feel free to go into GvG without a prot if you like, because the way you're talking means you seem to think that this will only affect bspike. LS is now going to be more effective against any type of life stealing. That means vamp weapons, nightmare spike, everything. Who needs RC? And WoR is going to make it's way into every split, not that many other rit elites are seeing play. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 08:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

1. The whole of GvG isn't made up of JUST bloodspike. You still have to run RC against pressure builds, where LS starts to wane in comparison to RC, especially since spikes are taking a hit in this coming update. Nobody is going to take RC and RoF, because LS rolls it all into one, and saves you a skill slot. -> obs mode is your friend, kthx.
2. At this point now, the only viable Rit elites are XW and WoR. Making them better does not turn other rit elites obsolete because, because you know what, they are already obsolete. You can't "remove skills out of the game" when they are already "out of the game".

You think you interpret the GvG community correctly. You are sorely mistaken. Come back when you are in touch with reality, not terrible theorycrafting.Pika Fan 10:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I love how you claim to know what I'm thinking, that must be an awesome super power. Anyway, you're the one who was talking like you we're only facing bspike ever. So, since some skills are already out of the game, it's okay to imbalance it further, and make them even less playable? I think I'd rather have Anet balance my game than you, and that's saying something. If you want to niche around hopefully facing pressure builds in a spike meta, that's your choice, but don't expect it to go well. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 19:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

And how am I claiming that people are only facing bspike by stating that your reasoning is terrible? It's a fact when I say that RC + RoF is so heavily entrenched in the game that LS has never really taken over the use of RC, and it's also a fact that buffing XW/WoR doesn't remove skills out of the game because they are already out of the game. FYI, I was pointing out that top guilds still use RC extremely often, if you have a problem with me stating what goes on in observer mode, kindly pm them and tell them why they are wrong in using RC.

I have talked to some of your friends over msn, and frankly, they all think you don't even know what is meta in GvG. Go over some of my arguments again, refer back to yours and see how out of point you are. Protip: RC + RoF handle spike builds pretty well, too. Pika Fan 03:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Once again, you're reading too much into pretty much everything you say. I'm going to let you know why you're wrong. 1. You don't know who my friends are. You don't really know anything about me, or the people I consider friends. 2. You've once again demonstrated your inability to read English. Reread some of your original "arguments" if they could be called that. They were based only on facing bspike. One of your arguments is that it's okay to further imbalance a game, because it's already imbalanced. This is wrong. If you want GW to be balanced, you have to start balancing it. Common sense is your friend. For example, buffing counters to a build is wrong. The build needs balancing, the counters don't need buffing. I watch observer mode daily, and while it is true that some of the better guilds can pull off wins using RC, the majority of the player base cannot, and thus swap to LS. Do your homework, and drain that imaginary epeen down, all you demostrate is massive ego. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 03:32, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

ps and sb need to mitigate life steal, end of story. -Auron 09:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Prot spirit. Current prot spirit effect + If target ally is affected by lifesteal all nearby foes lose 1 champ point. Lilondra 11:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think any lifesteal skills would trigger SB other than Unholy Feast (and then only at like 15 blood). PS would be pretty cool beans, though. is for Raine, etc. 16:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Strip Enchantment Pika Fan 16:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so the PBAoE and one ranged skill in the party trigger SB. If SB were changed, I'd like to see the damage on some lifesteal skills raised so that they triggered it. I know "pls raise lifesteal" on bspike sounds silly, but triggering SB is a huge balancing factor - it's why Mind Shock eles would run 13 air and why "nerfing" VoR actually buffed it. is for Raine, etc. 16:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not for or against any changes. I just want to make sure everything is considered. With that said, wouldnt being able to prot against life steal basically take away the primary bonus of selecting that dmg type in the first place? I mean, thats what life stealing dmg is, armor/prot ignoring dmg. If u make it easily countered then that form of dmg loses its purpose. It sounds to me like life stealing dmg itself and the game mechanics for it need to be adjusted. If is so innately imbalanced. One more thing I would like everyone to consider. It seems every spike is going to get the nerf bat eventually. So why not just make a game mechanic making spikes impossible if Anet does not want them to exist? Just make is so no one can lose more that 250 life in a 1 second time period all the time in all areas. Never again would anyone ever complain about spike dmg in any form, in any setting. Then maybe the entire world of GW can move on fixing everything else. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.31.26.100 (talk).

The point is to make bloodspike not more powerful than anything else in the game.

Ebon Dust Aura

"We're changing Ebon Dust Aura to only trigger from melee attacks. This skill will no longer be useful for ranged blind spamming."
Should we take this to mean that you consider ranged blind spamming problematic? If so, what's up with this? is for Raine, etc. 03:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

^Ups EDA is a problem in codex,no shit sherlock.Bsurge needs to fucking die Lilondra 11:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed that Bsurge should fucking die. It should cost 25e 90r with 5s duration. That or tone down its duration/increase its recharge. But honestly smiter's booning it is more fun. 209.89.252.164 00:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Next time please Izzy sign in. --Boro 17:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

This is a troll right? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Please PLEASE tell me this is meant to only affect PvP??? Why kill one of the few really SOLID ranger builds that doesn't have to beg for inclusion in PvE groups? I've run an EDA/Volley ranger for over a year, and she has NEVER been overpowered to the point of allowing me to sail through challenging areas of the game without thought--not like, oh, Perma-SF or Imbagon or Discordway. It's a strong, tactical build with its own strengths and weaknesses, but it's essentially a one-trick pony. It can limit enemy melee damage, but not much else. Try it against an elementalist boss group and see how broken it's NOT. Is the point of the new skill update strategy to just make all classes and builds equally weak? --66.116.33.57 06:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You better pray and hope and spam someones talk page to get an answer.--Underwood 06:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Lol. @ IP, yes, that is the plan. That's called balance. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 08:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Lol @ Rreckoning. Balancing PvE. Lolwut? --71.193.48.146 09:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

you meen nerfing bilds darkmorphon396 17:21, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Mirror of Ice

2 second cast is really harsh, imo. Eles already get eaten alive by any kind of disruption or enchantment removal; Attunements are balanced around that, aren't they? Making a would-be-playable elite vulnerable to the same deal is painful. If you increase the casting time to two seconds, I recommend decreasing the recharge - especially if we're talking about a 15- or 25-energy cost: even if it is still allowed 100% uptime, it will be more energy-intensive than otherwise AND it will become even more intensive when interrupted.
Another thing you might want to consider is adjusting Shard Storm. Part of the reason that MoI eles are so great on spikes is that they can compress damage because of the delay between when Shard Storm is cast and when it deals damage. However, making it non-projectile or fast-moving would make it too good of a snare, assuming that the damage is left alone. is for Raine, etc. 02:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

2 second cast is fine. The problem with MoI isn't the cast time or the energy cost anyway, since you can run all the way behind your monks to cast attunements, and you probably need glyph if it's 25 energy. Pika Fan 03:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Why not just keep it the cost/cast/recharge the way it is but make the skill deal cold damage?

I would agree with the cold damage thing, if you make it 25e it won't see play due to constant rending, 15e/2s is ok, but yeah, the better option would be to make it cold damage instead of armor ignoring damage88.159.236.245 09:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally I don't see the reason why MoI should be kept alive.But enlighten me why should Shard storm be changed if MoI is the problem ? Lilondra 11:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Shard Storm is a separate problem which puts emphasis on the MoI problem. It's for the exact same reason that Vamp Swarm is being changed - the delay decreases the period over which the damage is applied, making the spike more powerful (because it has a shorter period in which it can be caught). is for Raine, etc. 16:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Everyone will play fc snare if you kill Moi...yea thats much better.... 91.65.110.65 12:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

^ actually most guilds have already prepared for the MoI nerf. Karate Jesus 15:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yh thats better actually.Ints might no longer be as powerfull wich is not what we want but afaik you don't fix that problem by giving 100+ damage on snaring defensive characters.Lilondra 15:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Shatterstone was problematic? The issue isn't just the damage; it's also (and largely) the retarded damage compression offered by throwing an extra 30-odd damage between an 85-damage Shard Storm and a 60-damage Freezing Gust. If Shatterstone were a projectile, it would be just about as insane (except it would still have a real casting time).

The issue isn't the damage - it's the spike power. Damage is only part of that. is for Raine, etc. 16:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

If the damage isn't changed to cold then the "test krewe" has failed. --Frosty 16:26, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It saddens me that raine actually thinks I care about the damage pressurewise.Ofcourse its the spike damage :/.Shatterstone costs 15 energy and cuts on the snares you can throw around Lilondra 16:43, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

So it cost two more energy after Attunement - I'm sure that's the difference. Oh, and you could actually snare more with Shatterstone because you didn't have to use both of your snare skills to spike, and you could take the same number of snares (guess what skill on the SS bar gets dropped for MoI! Yep, it's Shatterstone!) As far as spike damage goes, the reason why MoI is so much better is because it does the just about the same damage (we're talking 15-ish more) faster due to Shard Storm's nature - NOT MoI's. is for Raine, etc. 16:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I still believe shatterstone is harsher when it comes to energy.I still believe MoI is better in about every way.But yh valid points Lilondra 17:32, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't really need Water Attunement for MoI though :D --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.230.202.60 (talk).

Nerfing the cast time will do nothing but force every water ele out of the meta. All snares will be done by fast casting mesmers instead. Forcing water eles out of the meta, thats the only thing u will gain from this fix. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.31.26.100 (talk).

I already stated I wouldn't mind.They run FC already anyway (apparently I no longer obs).I don't think its because they are preparing but more to counter the Pblock meta.Lilondra 05:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

More like to counter the triple rend enchantments meta--Underwood 17:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The real problem Imo is that MoI improves water ele damage over other ele attributes, at the same time it allows you to use multiple snares in your skill bar, so MoI must deal cold damage, by this way it could be reduced with armor so it will not be so effective (the same is valid for winter's embrace) another interesting option could be "MoI finishes after the next (0...8) spells" but adding cast time and energy cost just will kill it from the game. It will bring back to the game fast cast mesmers with water skills, but this is another problem that has nothing to do with MoI, to avoid this water skills must cost more energy and have a higher recharge, for example: "shard storm 15e and 15r" "winter's embrace 10e 15r and must deal cold damage" and maybe "freezing gust 10e 8r". Xiaka 18:42, 25 January 2010

omfg

stop nerfing my pro builds anet just because you cant beat them lolo Dark Morphon 17:06, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Ur thuper jealous of my awethum prohaxx shitters assault ranger. >:D 71.193.48.146 17:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

shattering assault is awesome it removes dumb guardian. they should nuke that skill Dark Morphon 17:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Can we... not... troll here? :\ is for Raine, etc. 18:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Blood Spike Ideas:

→ moved from Feedback talk:Skill update previews

They suck. They don't need to buff the counter, they need to make sure, that life stealing is simply affected by regular ways of damage reduction, such as armor, and every traditional damage reducing skill (I mean convert it to damage which heals you for the amount of damage dealt) --Boro 13:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

like those skills deal dark damage (for example) and you gain the amount of health compared to the damage dealth InfestedHydralisk 13:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

You're on the wrong page. Fix'd. is for Raine, etc. 18:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, you might consider merging your comments here with the relevant section above. is for Raine, etc. 01:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Blinding Surge [regarding 4v4 PvP]:

→ moved from Feedback talk:Skill update previews

It's a spell-based version of EDA. Is B.Surge being looked at in hopes of toning down? Maybe like 1 second cast time and 7-8 seconds recharge? It's pretty lame mashing 1-1-1-1 and winning in Random Arenas. It forces players to run rangers, and OW8 rangers are getting the bulk of the nerfbat, too! Guess that's another hamper vs. B.Surgers now.. ._. --Ulterion 17:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

these changes won't affect regular rangers.. InfestedHydralisk 17:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

[1] oh you mean these? 71.193.48.146 17:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

If they're changing quick-activation attacks on the marksmanship line, how will it not affect regular rangers? Unless they're not slowing down rupt times and/or increasing recharges on savage, dshot, m.bane, etc. Please elaborate a bit on your counterarguement, Hydra. --Ulterion 17:51, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

By quick activation they mean things like Power Shot and Precision Shot. --Frosty 17:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

So savage, dshot and m.bane will be unaffected by this update? --Ulterion 17:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

ip is bad and yeah those will remain unaffected InfestedHydralisk 18:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

You're on the wrong page. is for Raine, etc. 18:06, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the 411. They still need to tone B.Surge down just a bit. Recharge=8, cast time=1 is totally reasonable. --Ulterion 21:06, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I actually agree. You can't really do shit versus a bsurge. Especially in a 4 man. I (a warrior, like usual), can never do anything to a bsurge ele, unless I'm on an axe. You must have a way of disabling bsurge in order to win versus one. Dchopping it is my only chance. Dshot, and power block as well. Hammers have 3 second knock downs, but assuming you got the KD off, the ele could get up after the chain, and use the spammable AOE blind again (assuming you didn't manage to kill the bastard). Don't even get me started on the FC Bsurgers I'm beginning to see. :\ -- Dee Strongfist 06:20, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Make that recharge 10 and I'd agree Lilondra 06:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

And who says *you*, as a Warrior, must be able to deal with everything? It is a team game, if your team is too bad to notice a BSurge is shutting down your physical damage, or can't stop him at all, sorry but your team must lose. BSurge is no near as problematic as EDA. EDA easily auto-covers the Blind with a plethora of other conditions, EDA is uninterruptable, less costly to maintain, easier to cover under sereral other enchants, etc. EDA is also a single skill, while BSurge depends on the Attunement (+Aura), which is why it is way less problematic in CA (count the times both BSurge and Attune appeared in a deck, if ever).--Sensei | talk 11:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You want me to respond to that or can I grab some popcorn and wait till somebody else does ? Lilondra

+ I agree ! When I play warrior I always take antidote signet just for that .. tbh it feels quiet good to remove my blind and then dchop the next blind, since bbots are .. bots .. spamming skills ! But as a 3/4 skill its just too annoying because blind is a melee killer, should either nerf blind or spamable-blind (same thing as u dont want spamable-daze .. and tbh with daze u can still CAST some fast unlike blind that u can do nothing but wave ur weapon hoping enemy will be terorized) 79.180.32.95 11:53, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Ranged Spiking in GVG

→ moved from Feedback talk:Skill update previews

Glass Arrows is probably over powered in a team of 8 people, but there are some people who don't GvG in this game. I can see the nerf-cannons aimed right at it ready to knock the crap out of it. Please do not just nerf it, if you have to hit it do it in a way that still allows the skill to be fun to use. Cut it back for GvG play but don't let the nerf ripple down to smaller, less serious play (since there is a problem between GvG and smaller arenas, sort of like how there used to be a problem between PvE and PvP balances). Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:06, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. GvG, HA, RA, FA, JQ, and CA are all different. While some skills are great in some arenas, they pale in other arenas (an obvious example would be ressurection skills). -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 00:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

That's why I think skills shoudl be further split into area specific ones. Suggested it on a talk page last month but thought that before. And not everything, just certain things, for instances like this. Having only 2 versions (PvE and PvP) can't cover all grounds when there are so many different types of play. Extra versions should be created if something is overpowered in one place but not so in other areas. Previously Unsigned 06:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps that could have worked earlier in the game's lifespan, but currently I think there are just too many skills to efficiently and effectively balance without having to worry about balancing each of them in each PvP area. --Kyoshi (Talk) 06:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Like I said, if they find something to be a huge problem in one area, then only tweak it there. They wouldn't need to like change something then go through every possible place after. That's not so unrealistic then IMO. Previously Unsigned 06:54, 23 January 2010 (UTC) Or what if they had areas where there are special skills crafted for it already... like costume ball/dodgeball/etc... hmmm. Previously Unsigned 06:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I think Codex Arena was an attempt at that, though poorly executed at that. I'd love to see an arena where they had the same mechanics as Codex, except that the builds were completely crafted and sealed by ANet and changed each week or so. A pick-up-and-play sort of PvP. --Kyoshi (Talk) 15:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"pick up and play" + "PvP" = lolwut? 71.193.48.146 15:44, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Like Costume Brawl. Easy to just look at the skills, decide on a strategy, get a team, go. As opposed to wading through "LF R8+ <insert meta build>" in every other PvP, though I know if it wasn't a random arena it would eventually turn into that anyway. --Kyoshi (Talk) 15:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, a random team is better (outside of GvG and HA). With limits on professions (maximum of 1 of any prof for 4v4, 2 of any for 8v8). If GW had limited professions from the start, a lot of gimmicks wouldn't have happened getting perfectly fine skills nerfed. Another gametype I wouldn't mind seeing is preset, like Kyoshi mentioned, where the builds stay the same, but there are 5...10 or so builds to choose from for each profession. -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 18:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Enough Ranger Nerfing Already

As an old school PVP Ranger fan that hasn't jumped on the caster or KD W/E bandwagon, I'm pissed about the continued nerfage of Rangers as damage dealers. Individual nerfs to Read the Wind, Melandru's Shot, Sloth Hunter's Shot, and others skills, are understandable on their own - but collectively - they've relegated rangers to the role of condition spreaders who interrupt. PVP rangers are cookie-cutter copies of each other now in that they all have Apply Poison and at least two interrupts on their bar. Don't forget a stance or two plus Mending Touch, and there's your cloned PVP Ranger.

The fact that Rangers have fallen back on Glass Arrows as a primary source of damage just goes to show that there aren't a lot of good options left. Nerfing Glass Arrows will just make an already polarized PVP class that much more isolated in their role. And the Ranger problems don't end there; unless they're throwing down QZ for an imba 600/smite team, Ranger aren't exactly being begged for to join PVE teams either. Can we stop trashing this class already? -Ninjatek 21:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed my a/r wants her epic sauce Melly Shot back... Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Also I'm tired of trying to Obs mode and seeing the same team constructions in every single match... Every GvG team is one of three or four variations that are essentially identical. I went to HA obs mode and I saw a team of 8 w/p trying to body block their stairwell. I might not watch gvg matches again until the meta changes. And yeah, standing in one spot and spamming Tab + space bar is not fun (unless you like watching your poison pressure get nulled by Recovery or w/e the hell it's called) Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I dont even play a ranger and I agree with you. +1 --Briar 21:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

wat Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

yeah i aggree rangers need dmg bufs not nerfs they need to outdo warriors cuz deyr brave atrches n stuff darkmorphon396 16:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Who would've thought shooting someone with an arrow would hurt them? How dumb Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I think, ultimately, what needs to happen is not nerfing the ranger, but buffing skills (stances and enchants) that nullify spikes and encourage pressure. The fact of the matter is, an 8 ranger on 1 player spike IS GOING TO KILL if they don't have an anti-spike enchant or stance active. Further, it is very sad that ranger damage now PALES in comparison to all other damage dealing classes. let's keep in mind the average bow attack is 2.5 seconds. TWO POINT FIVE. That's nearly twice as slow as the standard 1.33 for most other weapons (and Mr. Spear). The whole idea of glass arrows/read the wind was that you were trading conditional damage (poison arrows) for physical damage.71.162.79.88 15:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC)MedicDude

An afterthought, Enchantments and/or stances that refresh if you block X or more attacks while enchant or stance is active?71.162.79.88 15:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)MedicDude

I feel like the entire Ranger class is going to go the way of Smiter's Boon (PvP) - nerfed to the point of uselessness with no intent or plan to resolve it. Why not just grey-out the Ranger pane on the PVP character creation screen? If Apply Poison and D-shot disappeared from PVP, how much would that really swing the Meta?? I can't even play with my own guild as a Ranger in PVP, FFS. -Ninjatek 21:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

rangers arent supposed to be a spike damage class, rangers are a condition based pressure class with interupts InfestedHydralisk 21:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

No one is supposed to be anything, that's kind of the gist of the entire game. Why were they given glass arrows in the first place if they're not supposed to be spikers/DPSers? C'mon people Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 14:18, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

As a mistake. It's been corrected now. is for Raine, etc. 03:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know much about what goes into balancing skills, but I think an easy way to solve the R-Spike problem is remove all fast activating (i.e. less than 1 second activation) bow attacks and give them back there damage. No speed=no spike but saves the ranger from resorting to easily counterable degen for damage. I might be alone in this, but I like the new version of Power Shot for this reason. AceKevin 01:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ackevin8412 (talk).

So you're suggesting to remove the rangers' ability to interrupt with bow attacks such as Distracting Shot and Savage Shot? --Silver Edge 22:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Right, interrupts, just an oversight, but the damage should be like Distracting Shot preset and fairly low, as opposed to Savage Shot,Punishing Shot, or Disrupting Shot AceKevin 01:05, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Vampiric Weapons and Prots...

I just hope A-Net realise they will need to alter the damage packets on vamp weps so the lifesteal comes AFTER the hit. Otherwise with the preview changes RoF or LS is gonna heal for 3-5 damage... Which would obviously be bad for the game. --Tyris 16:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I totally /agree! --Ulterion 23:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

It's going to be really funny if a-net doesn't change the order in which vamp mods affect the target. lolRoF. lolLS.--TahiriVeila 16:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Blind

Change functionality so that instead of missing 100% of the time you only miss 50-75% of the time. Being able to completely shut down all melee and projectile attacks with 1 condition is silly. Besides, even if you are blind you should still logically be able to hit someone 1/4 times using your other senses and luck(Timcago 23:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)).

It's 90%, not 100%. And the rest of your argument seems invalid to me. ~~000.00.00.00~~ 03:31, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Blind is so powerful because physical classes are so powerful. Ever seen a warrior hitting an unprotted target? Yeah, it dies in about 3 seconds. -Auron 03:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Besides, there is a condition shutting down casters as well. Lou Wolfskin 04:39, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Dazed is much harder to apply (it's available on fewer skills, and less than half of those skills are viable) and lasts a much shorter amount of time. Pure damage casters are imbalanced because of it. The existence of Dazed doesn't really have anything to do with how strong Blind is; Blind is balanced around the power of physical damage, and Dazed is (theoretically, anyway) balanced around the power of spells. The two mechanics are completely different, so it's really hard to compare their counters. -Auron 05:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

condition vs damage may be balance, but the ways to apply it is not, at least with blind anyways--BobbyT 21:27, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

If they lowered blind to say 50%, it'd mean that players would have to block the rest of the way in order to sur...vive...? OW8 THEY ALREADY ARE! PvX /signed for blind=50%_miss_rate --Ulterion 23:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

If Blind and Daze are suppose to be similar in that one shuts down melees while the other shuts down casters why is the latter so hard to apply? Why not have a Dazing Surge ele elite with a 4 second recharge and 3/4 second cast that dazes for 10 seconds? Why? Becuase that would be massively overpowered, as Blinding Surge is.

Because there are far more hex/spell based counters for casters (most mesmer/necromancer spells with the exception of about 4-5 antimelee hexes) than there are for melee. While melee might be easily shutdown with easily appliable conditions (blind/weakness), it's just as easy to shut down a caster with dom hexes, interrupts, necro debuffs & degen, and enchantment removal.--TahiriVeila 00:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

TBH the way in wich they shutdown is so different I wouldn't compare them.1st of all both antimelee hexes and conditions are much easier to apply (faint,Empathy vs Backfire,VoR).Secondly its rly not that easy to shut a caster completely unless you are using Pblock or something similar.Or Did I miss something Tahiri ? Lilondra 07:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The point is there's just as many ways to shutdown a caster as there are to shut down melee. And it's just about as easy to shutdown melee/casters and to remove shutdown from casters/melee. So there really isn't any problem. EDA has never been a problem before, it's only a problem now b/c there's only like 7-8 dervish elites so it almost ALWAYS shows up in codex decks where it is overpowered because enchantment removal isn't always available.--TahiriVeila 22:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

And yet we forget that the very same caster counters also counter physical users. Well, many to most of them anyway. Pika Fan 01:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem with shutting down casters compared to melee is that while melee can be shut down extremely easily by using only 1 skill (usually), shutting down casters takes more time (dom hexes), skill (interrupts), and/or are limited in its viability (daze). So while melee can do lots of damage, the fact that they also have to risk the front lines for it only to be shut down so effortlessly is really not worth it unless you have an awesome backline. 209.89.252.164 02:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Simple fix for all gimmicks in any PvP format

No idea how to create a feedback or suggestion page, So im putting this here. 2 words. Profession cap. No more than 2 (of the same) professions in a single PvP group. There. Now its balanced again. That was hard. 71.193.48.146 07:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

It's also not hard to make a feedback page. Feedback:Main

That means no brave triple warrior GvG/HA, sad. --Frosty 10:53, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

^ Lilondra 11:18, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, a 2 profession cap would stomp all over the 2ranger 2para cspace and rollface gvg build. -Auron 11:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

See Even Auron agrees ! Great Idea ! Lilondra 16:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Or we could just make primary attributes only affect the skills of that profession. For example, Expertise only affecting bow attacks, Fast Casting only affecting Mesmer skills, etc., etc. Of course, that would hopefully be for PvP only. Karate Jesus 16:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Some primary attributes need a complete rework tbh Lilondra 16:22, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

By "some" you mean "everything but DF" right? -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 20:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

GvG teams have no more than 2 of whatever they're using... 1-2 war 1-2 ranger 1-2 mesmer, snare, monks, ritualist Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:11, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Split builds often run 3-4 eles, and a monk flagger.--TahiriVeila 05:09, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Will Rangers see the light of day anymore...

...after the nerf bomb lands? Discuss! --Ulterion 03:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

obviously, the general ranger didnt got hurt InfestedHydralisk 03:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I guess they'll still be a bit utile conditions-wise; they'll just be very impotent damage-wise. --Ulterion 03:43, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not "a bit", it is "a lot". Pika Fan 03:53, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not like you can't hit hard anymore in PvE, I mean, barrage remains untouched. PvP-wise, it's imbalanced to have a ranged attacker spike as hard (or harder) than a melee attacker, because of the fact you can't really pre-prot against ranged attacks. This is also why RtL was so strong. 88.159.236.245 09:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they will remain viable. SA shitter rangers are not being touched. 128.208.115.71 22:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

^Tbh --Briar 22:50, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

But Lightning Reflexes will take a hit. 209.89.252.164 02:35, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

PVP Rangers are trashed. Read what I wrote further up about Ranger nerfing. Most of the Marksmanship-attribute skills are useless in PVP due to the rolling nerfs, and all the PVP Rangers look alike. If you carry mending touch or have an RC monk on your side, and your skillset can function after a couple pesky interrupts, there's really nothing to fear from a Ranger anymore. You don't even have to worry about getting zapped from downtown by a flatbow or longbow because, seriously, who brings Read the Wind (PvP) now that it no longer empowers all the other nerfed marksmanship skills? -Ninjatek 04:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Right because a player that can dump -7 degen onto you, maintainable, covered cripple, half time block/ims stance and 2 of the fastest recharge interrupts in the game is just way too weak. Rangers are incredibly powerful utility players, it's just too bad that the pve and low-end pvp community doesn't understand how powerful utility is anymore and would rather have big damage pewpew skills. zzzz gild wors--TahiriVeila 05:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

@ InfestedHydralisk, what do You mean it didnt get hurt, glass arrows is bs now, theres more in pvp then R spike, rangers never ment to make massive dmg, but now its quite a joke. Do they have to fucking nerf everyhting thats beeing used? screw that politics. Lets nerf all th the possible farming builds now plix, so I can leave with a clear conscience. --217.153.126.66 06:25, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Amazing how long it took to come up with such a pathetic update, cant fix anything or balance it, no no thats to hard, just nerf the crap out of it. Guess it back to using another classes weapon on your rangers now, bows are useless -.- If you want to try do something useful, make b surge cause exhaustion. Good job Anet keep up the mind blowing updates.

lol ye poison is weak only 8 dps lolo they make ranged dps too weak nab anet darkmorphon396 17:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

if poisen is 8dps times 8 targets seems kinda alot to me .. ask the monks 79.180.32.95 11:56, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I STILL dont see Shadow Form in the bombing range...

Hes like Binladen.We just cant get him.--Neil2250 17:02, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

shadow form needs tio get health loss removed cuz nubs die if they dont manage proprly and thats anoying darkmorphon396 17:13, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Why not just make it last 60 seconds while we're at it? :3--/ u /nendingfear File:User Unendingfear Avatar.png 17:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Or we could, you know, stop trolling every feedback and talk page in the entire wiki with shadow form shit. But hey i suppose thats out of the question. Oh btw ZOMFGANET WTF ARE EWE GAIZ DOIN NARF SF PL0X SOEZ MAI WAR CAN TANK AGAIN PLZKTHX. --Briar 17:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

gret idea crane frend!! shadow form is to weak and i aggree ppl should shut up lol noobs darkmorphon396 17:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe also add an effect like Lava Font, so it deals MASSIVE DAMAGE too.--/ u /nendingfear File:User Unendingfear Avatar.png 17:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

yeh abd whule were at it reduce deadly paradox to zero cost and increasr to 90% faster recharge darkmorphon396 17:28, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Ya, that too. And make it so signets fail too! :O--/ u /nendingfear File:User Unendingfear Avatar.png 17:28, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

LoL you gaiz r so mature. <3 --Briar 17:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

tank u vewy much--/ u /nendingfear File:User Unendingfear Avatar.png 17:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Shadowform gets a functionality change in next months skill balance. InfestedHydralisk 17:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

They've been saying this since Factions came out Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:59, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Form is not addressed in this preview. Please do not discuss it on this page, take it to a fansite forum somewhere. When changes to SF are coming, hopefully there will be a preview page telling you what those proposed changes are and you can discuss them to your heart's content. -- Wyn talk 23:05, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

That will be a very, very interesting wiki day. Karate Jesus 23:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Anyone wanna place bets that shadow form and every page relating to it gets locked? lolvandals. --Briar 23:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

What part of STOP DISCUSSING SF HERE don't you get? -- Wyn talk 23:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The part where we come up with stupid rules for the sake of having more stupid rules.--TahiriVeila 23:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

To be honest it's just another QQ section. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 14:21, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

<<What part of STOP DISCUSSING SF HERE don't you get?>>

Or course, nobody can get into UW or FoW without it and we cannot talk about the absence of a fix for it. Tell me hoe logical that is. Koda Kumi 15:19, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

When I think of shadow form without reading the skill and thinking of how assassins work, I think it would be cool if it were a low recharge shadow step, that works on both allys and opponents, like 5 or 10 seconds recharge. Then its like a "Shadow Form" Because you can step away defensively or offensively. With sins weak armor this could acctually be kinda cool.--Death Syndrome 16:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Guys, come on. Don't be an idiots. This skill update preview is for PvP only. It even says at the top "blah blah drastic changes to Shadow Form [are coming] blah blah," so have some patience, stfu, and gtfo. 208.44.247.125 16:24, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

No you. Dark Morphon 15:17, 31 January 2010 (UTC)