Feedback talk:User/Hong/Extreme mode
This idea is bad. HM monsters are way too beefed now. We don't need monsters on steroids. We need to rebalance Hard Mode (e.g. no cons, no pve skills, no steroids). It's a lot easier than it is to make an entire new game mode, as this involves making copies of the existing maps And the monsters+their new versions. --Boro 
15:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's why I said that monsters would keep their levels and stats. The only changes to their skills would be the random debuffs/heals, which have a long recharge and are there mainly to keep things from becoming too formulaic. As for HM monsters being too hard, I haven't noticed that myself except for a few areas... and I don't use imbagons, triple necro teams, consumables (except for powerstones now and then), or any of the well-known uber builds. I suppose if you're talking solely about the Underworld or DOA then it's different, but HM is more than just the Underworld and DOA. -- Hong 09:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Look this is why hard mode is bad. Of course it needs a redesign. But with one redesign (changing an effect and some xml files with monster data) you can have the challenging game mode, and you haven't spent a line of code to make a new mode. --Boro
21:06, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I've seen that page. I've also done Arborstone HM a few times, and never got into the strife Auron did. Arborstone is far, far down on my list of missions that are tough in HM.
- Look this is why hard mode is bad. Of course it needs a redesign. But with one redesign (changing an effect and some xml files with monster data) you can have the challenging game mode, and you haven't spent a line of code to make a new mode. --Boro
- I'm not even sure what that rant is supposed to be about. Dumb AI and getting stuck on obstacles is prevalent throughout the game, not just HM; babysitting NPCs is an issue with the design of that quest (and a lot of Factions) and not HM. Keeping NPCs alive is probably easier in HM in fact, due to their boosted health and armour; contrast what the monsters do in Eternal Grove NM and HM, for instance (the problem with Eternal Grove HM is keeping yourself alive, not the tree singers). Is it a rant about the random spawning? Fighting 3 rits is certainly a tricky task, but by no means insurmountable. Or maybe it's a rant about all these problems adding up to make for an impossible challenge? It can certainly happen, but Arborstone is a very strange choice for an example. It looks more like he happened to end up in the long tail, where a series of unlikely glitches all struck at once -- play long enough, and it's bound to happen. The rant itself says that he's done the mission 20+ times, and it's a fair bet that most of those times were a lot more routine than this one time.
- I happen to think HM outside the elite areas isn't too bad as it stands -- again, with a few exceptions, which I've already touched on. You can't roll through it with your eyes closed, but neither are you forced to take uber builds and broken gimmicks. It also does demand more teamwork than NM, so PUGs are going to be more challenged than using H/H -- but that is arguably a feature, not a bug. -- Hong 04:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- What Auron was talking about is that he could not use his usual strategies in that mission at all. Either you use builds that exploit the attack speed, level, and movement speed increase of enemies, or use other imbalanced shit that should not even exist and just rickroll everything you see, or you will fail. Hard Mode is so bad that balaced builds do not work. Koda
Kumi 21:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- What Auron was talking about is that he could not use his usual strategies in that mission at all. Either you use builds that exploit the attack speed, level, and movement speed increase of enemies, or use other imbalanced shit that should not even exist and just rickroll everything you see, or you will fail. Hard Mode is so bad that balaced builds do not work. Koda
- I happen to think HM outside the elite areas isn't too bad as it stands -- again, with a few exceptions, which I've already touched on. You can't roll through it with your eyes closed, but neither are you forced to take uber builds and broken gimmicks. It also does demand more teamwork than NM, so PUGs are going to be more challenged than using H/H -- but that is arguably a feature, not a bug. -- Hong 04:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, what Auron was talking about was that his usual strategies did not work that one time in the 20+ times he'd done that mission. I find it hard to believe that he would have failed all those 20+ times, especially since I haven't experienced anything like what's in that rant. Nor do I use any of the gimmicks you link to. I will freely admit to using Churning Earth to KD fast-moving monsters; Spiteful Spirit, VoR and Empathy to punish them; and hero minion masters and interrupters to take advantage of the AI's strengths; but I fail to see how any of this is "unbalanced". It's simply adapting to changed circumstances, and it's not like I'm taking 6 chars all of the one class (*cough* dual Discordway *cough*). You might as well complain that Fire Storm doesn't work as well in HM as in normal because the monsters scatter. -- Hong 03:38, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Those things fall into the category "exploiting attack speed and movement speed" :P But I admit taking Teinai's Heat was not a smart move on Auron's part Koda Kumi 10:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Those things fall into the category "exploiting attack speed and movement speed" :P But I admit taking Teinai's Heat was not a smart move on Auron's part Koda
- No, what Auron was talking about was that his usual strategies did not work that one time in the 20+ times he'd done that mission. I find it hard to believe that he would have failed all those 20+ times, especially since I haven't experienced anything like what's in that rant. Nor do I use any of the gimmicks you link to. I will freely admit to using Churning Earth to KD fast-moving monsters; Spiteful Spirit, VoR and Empathy to punish them; and hero minion masters and interrupters to take advantage of the AI's strengths; but I fail to see how any of this is "unbalanced". It's simply adapting to changed circumstances, and it's not like I'm taking 6 chars all of the one class (*cough* dual Discordway *cough*). You might as well complain that Fire Storm doesn't work as well in HM as in normal because the monsters scatter. -- Hong 03:38, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Meh. 4 skills out of 64 that exploit the quirks of HM does not count as unbalanced in any way, shape or form. It's not like the monsters are staggering under a burden of half a dozen hexes each. And I don't even use all of those skills, all the time; different areas require different solutions. -- Hong 11:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Not a particularly onerous requirement either. -- Hong 13:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I also don't see how this is more work than rebalancing HM. Rebalancing HM, if I understand you correctly, means taking out PvE skills, consumables and the existing monster buffs, and then making the AI a lot smarter. This involves taking out PvE skills and consumables, keeping the monsters the same (mostly), and then making the AI a little smarter. -- Hong 05:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I think this would raise a lot of eyebrows in the gaming community, and not look favorably upon Anet or NCSoft as a game developer. You can only squeeze so much recycled content out of a title before it starts to look bad. 'Hard Mode' was 100% recycled content: a way for lazy game developers to create content that looked new (but wasn't) and to keep players interested enough from moving to games with fresher content like WoW. With interest in HM and the title system starting to wane, the company expected GW2 to be ready by now, but of course it's not, so a serious gap now exists that might cause the player base to start flocking to other titles before GW2 is finally released. Extreme mode isn't a bad idea per se, but the content has already been recycled once. Doing so a second time might be the death knell for the franchise, since it would give the appearance ArenaNet is completely out of creative ideas on how to reinvigorate the brand. Flipper 09:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I am opposed. In particular, your whole list at the bottom, "lure to get people in..." irritates me. It's bad enough that hard mode already has things that aren't in the normal game otherwise. The so-called challenge (and the associated title) should be its own reward. --Emkyooess 18:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
