Feedback talk:User/Koda Kumi/Eliminate the Essence of Celerity

A lot uses the Celerity in like TOA, etc. I agree with you, but I'm thinking it shouldn't be in pvp areas or elite areas like ToA, etc. ♥ Ariyen ♀ 19:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Didn't know the game forces you to use these items. Oh wait, It doesn't. 24.233.254.51 19:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Game doesn't force you to use the items. Too many use it and abuse these items in places lik ToA, etc. ♥ Ariyen ♀ 19:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol, since when could you use cons in PvP? Do you even play the game at all? King Neoterikos 03:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you even read at all? Koda Kumi talk 18:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's a radical thought: Don't use consets yourself. O.o Moo Kitty 03:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You are probably annoyed every time you are doing HA and die against a team of 8 people with next to no knowledge of the game or any skill, but because they use some lame overpowered gimmick they do rediculous damage / are next to invincible / shut down your teammates with uncounterable skills - or a combination of them. I am annoyed every time a guildie thinks he is good at the game because he beat urgoz om HM using rediculous PvE skills / steamrolled an area in DoA on HM with consumables / breezed through slavers because his party threw 24 sins on every mob - or a combination of them Koda Kumi talk 18:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This one is on Pve, not Pvp. I do play both. 72.148.31.114 05:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a PvE-only item. And PvE can't be balanced by definition. There is no way you can balance when both sides have so different characteristics. (Some) players have brains, AI has none, (most) players can't interrupt as good as AI, no player can have as much health and energy as the monsters that have the highest amounts, and in no way you'll ever be able to deal 400 dark damage hits without skills like the Lich does, AI may have all attributes up to 20 without any kind of downside, while players will lose health and have to depend on other sources to get them so high. And don't make me start with the Armor. Have you ever tried to hit a Mursaat boss? They laugh at any kind of damage type. +20% increase when enemies may have +50% natural increase is not really so much, and what's more important, they are not free. You have to bother getting the materials for them. If you are not into trading and get the materials yourself, it is a real chore. MithTalk 16:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Giving people an option called 'Hard Mode' provides challenges to people in search for them. However, if you provide people with items which effectively does the same thing that HM gives monsters, it is not that much of a 'Hard Mode' anymore, is it? Is there any accomplishment anymore for doing anything in HM? Koda Kumi talk 18:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Retarded idea is retarded. This item is meant to balance the insane boosts that mobs get in HM. Sorry not signed.. and no I don't use them myself. But I have this really silly idea that I don't tell other people how to play GW. Anon-e-mouse 16:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

First, try to contribute something without immediately flaming. Second, I do not tell other people how to play (well, usually I do but not this time), I have an idea that shifts back GW at least a bit to what it used to be about: skill-based gameplay Koda Kumi talk 18:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If you would have read the article, you would have known Koda Kumi's point. He's right, because Hard Mode... guess what? It's supposed to be Hard. With the OP shit skills and consumables and all that going on, HM became Doodely-Doo mode, where you double click 2 icons, smash your head on the keyboard, and suddenly you get 100 platinum. Titani Ertan 20:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Yer Cons do ruin the economy as it allows for UWsc/SoOsc and makes many other areas too easy. I do however think that instead of a SF nerf so it that it will probs become useless, there should be a BU nerf to try to stop Sin dominated farming areas and so they will become Tanks (as they would have to be A/E and not A/any) and so help to stop SF dominance in farming, as this should make SF sins into tanks and not all purpose virtually unkillable characters which can do virtually everything in the game in HM with such ease. Because as most people have already said - Hard mode should be HARD, (but its not quite as easy of rolling your head on the keyboard, but every little skill is needed.) X Hippocrates X 20:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

you know what you guys are right HM is not hard enough. When playing with one other decent player you can split up into two teams of four to clear some areas and that is without any consumables. Some people have trouble with hard mode though and the consumables are for them. For the rest of us I think we can just not use consumables if we want a challenge or sit and hope Guild Wars come out with an OMG I AM GOING TO DIE mode. Wretched90 0:01, 17 September 2009 (CST)

The avarage games modes are "Easy", "Normal" and "Hard" , although there are games with none, less or more. In a MMORPG in which all characters play together without any kind of separation between servers and regions, adding difficulty settings has some problems. So either have to separate people playing in different modes, or add handicaps and bonuses for those that play under the harder modes (like taking more damage, but getting better loot). Separation has the problem of having to set complete different spawns, loot tables, etc... so you split your resources that way, and also spread the playerbase between the different modes.

So, the handicap way seems to the better choice. If you use Consumables, you are lowering the difficulty, but you will have to pay for them. Maybe their price is low, maybe the last too long, maybe using them should decrease drop quality... but they are not a bad thing by themselves. MithTalk 20:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Signed. Consumables break PvE. -Combatter 16:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not even that they break PvE. I don't give a crap if others use them to farm stuff, it means that I can buy that stuff from them for less because it was easier to get. What DOES bother me is that anymore if you want to pug anything beyond <insert noob mission here>, you are expected to have cons or get laughed at or even kicked. Used to be worse with Ursan, but it's still around, and it's annoying. I got my legendary vanquisher with nothing more than a handfull of clovers and candy canes, but who cares if most others got it in 1/4th the time with consets? Grr.. ¬_¬ I think crafted EotN cons should be disallowed at least during missions, that would suffice for me. Rose Of Kali 06:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

yeah consets are not pro at all Kurz Hates Challenge 06:10, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Even better, also disallowed in vanquishable areas that you have not vanquished yet, and allowed after every party member has done so. Now THAT is an incentive to vq. :) Rose Of Kali 06:11, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Why, exactly, would a party enter an explorable area in Hard Mode when every player has already vanquished it? With the small exception of a few Luxon/Kurzick areas of course. elix Omni 10:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Um... I dunno... To farm the hell out of it? Rose Of Kali 20:17, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

A common thread.

The issue (or one of them) is that anet apparently feels that everyone should be able to succeed in every part of PvE. This is why cons exist: they make things that would otherwise be inaccessible open to everyone. This mentality needs to die before things can be anything even resembling balanced.
What's more important is that this mentality is creating a constant problem: when everyone finishes everything, what's left? People complain about the lack of content because all of the things currently in the game are a breeze. More difficult content would give players something to work at - look at the popularity of, say, Ninja Gaiden. It's engaging because players have to put effort into it in order to succeed. Guild Wars? Cons up, let's go win PvE. If there's something that cons can't beat, there are other workarounds: Shadow Form and PvE skills immediately come to mind. There's no need for players to put in effort, there's no need to be engaged. And what does the playerbase demand? More content, so that they can faceroll it in the exact same way.
So, what I think needs to be done is:

1. Only allow consumables in certain areas; we'll call them the easy areas. Further, ban cons in HM, period.
2. Impose a penalty for using cons, as said by Rose. Normal Mode has smaller rewards than Hard Mode; if you're choosing to play in Easy Mode via cons, why should your rewards be the same as someone who plays in Normal Mode?
3. Change mob composition so that zones cannot be specced as easily. Either adjust the spawns in each zone to be more varied or randomize mob skillbars at instance creation. Not just "lol random skillbar", but something along the lines of "okay, Juvenile Bladed Termite A has Dismember and Juvenile Bladed Termite B has Disrupting Chop" - this makes it impossible to know exactly what one will be facing when entering a zone. For example, I don't take Fleeting Stability when I 600 Rragar's because there's no big KD threat - what if some of the Charr Shadowblades had Iron Palm or some such? I'd have to run counters to everything that could ever be found there in order to succeed, and that'd be impractical if not impossible.
4. Generally improve AI. Not just the skill usage - they're fine at that. But such things as attacking things that are obviously tanks (Especially when eating damage), things that are just common sense, need to be implemented in some if not all areas.

Of course, that's just a start. is for Raine, etc. 10:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be completely confusing the concepts of collaborative and competitive. PvE is collaborative, PvP is competitive. You state that "anet apparently feels that everyone should be able to succeed in every part of PvE" and you reject that idea because you want some people to win and others to fail if they're not good enough --- in other words, you want competition between players. Well if you want competition between players, go and do PvP, that's the part of GW that is designed to be competitive.

In PvE, the more people who succeed, the better. You are not in competition with them. Asking for a personal challenge in PvE is fine. Asking that others should fail is not. Morgaine 12:35, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, the more people who succeed and had a good time with the game, the better. But that does not mean victory should be handed to everyone on a silver platter, and that is what party-wide consumables and PvE skills do. You are not winning because you are good at the game, but because you are using features that should not even be in the game in the first place.

Now this has nothing to do with competition as you are implying, but with the competence of the players. If you force people to think about their position on the battlefield and when to use their skills, they will eventually become better players. That is not what happens in the current GW. When you see elementalists in Hard Mode dungeons still standing next to the tank, still spamming Flare, and still using Fire Attunement as their only utility skill, you can clearly see the effect of having items in the game that let you win no matter how bad you are.

At the moment I am writing this, it is too late for a change like this. The people who still play GW (which I am not a part of) rely on overpowered shit to get anywhere in the game. One can only hope GW2 will do things differently. Koda 12:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Areas in which only a few succeed are one of the three great MMO mistakes: "contention between allies"(PK, Elitism, Loot steal, Kill steal...), "pigeonholing"(classes that can only fulfill a single role and suck at anything else) and "grind" (repetitive behaviors, having to get gradually better gear every three steps, having to waste time leveling up before progressing with the actual game). Since this problems have been present for so long in games, many people see them as normal (some <Mr.T>fools</Mr.T> even as desirable), but they are not. They are mistakes to be changed. GW1 started dealing with those mistakes. GW2 will probably destroy them completely. Everything in the game is "for most people", because it's designed to be "for most people". But "for most people" doesn't mean "for everyone". The elite and beyond areas are definitely not "for everyone". Some people either use help from others or deem them as impossible, even with cons. The thing is, it's literally impossible to make a game that will feel as hard for everyone. So no matter how hard you work to balance it, for a few it may be insanely hard or easy, for some just hard or just easy, and, if done right, for most it will be close to "as hard as intended". Things like the Hard Mode Titan quests is as hard as GW gets. If that's not hard enough for you, congratulations, you are way above the average. MithTalk 23:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, when you design a "Hard Mode", it should definitely not be possible for newbies to complete most of it, which it currently does. Koda 12:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

That's another mistake of typical MMOs, under the "Grind" category. Newbie is a player that doesn't know the quirks of the game. GW's learning curve is so small, that a newbie will no longer be a newbie in less than a month. MithTalk 20:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. The learning curve is not small, GW has become so easy that you can still be a newbie at it and still beat the game. You can experience that by joining a full team of people on, for example, Bogroot Growths. You can easily pick the newbies out of the group because they have no clue about what they should be doing. Koda 21:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

That happens in every single dungeon the first time you enter. The second time, they all know what to do, unless they have some kind of mental disability. But being slow-witted and being a newbie are different things. A newbie is just someone that is doing something for the first time, no previous experience. MithTalk 14:34, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

In any case, 7-hero parties have rendered this entire issue moot. I'd say that has had a far bigger impact on most areas of the game than consumables, which were mostly used by speedclear teams (all the talk about invincible newbies notwithstanding). -- Hong 18:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)