Feedback talk:User/Shard/Xinrae's Weapon

some what like mirror of disenchantment, good concept except it wouldn't have much use outside of players that have a balance skill set, yes this would help in spike builds focus around 1-2 skills but after that i would take diversion over it, beside this skill would have a build wars flavor to it --BobbyT 23:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Not really. It's kind of like a backwards diversion when you're fighting a "balanced" team. You could still use it to disable 1 or 2 of a warrior's attack skills when he's spiking, or to protect your monks from a dom mesmer or something. It wouldn't be as good, obvuously, but it wouldn't be completely useless either. ~Shard 23:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

This is just Build Wars all over again.--Underwood 23:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It wouldn't be useless, but since diversion is a better skill to compare imo, i would bring it over XW and use my elite slot for something else, maybe bring it in HA or CMs some times, but other then that, ill agree that its orginal effect was better then what it is now tho --BobbyT 00:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, they are completely different professions for one. It is in a mostly support profession and can easily be placed on a flag runner, compared to Diversion (as well as a shorter and spike prevention). -~=Sparky (talk) 00:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it will be nice put a cast time or it will be the first istant cast spell of the game :P.Ciotto 00:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

maybe, timing it to get the warriors bulls would be sweet--BobbyT 00:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Substituting the 1/4 template didn't work with skill data, it shows the correct cast time now. Good catch. ~Shard 01:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It is too powerful. 3 seconds is enough to have every spike character disable 1-2 skills on their bar, effectively negating any spiking or even pressuring for a whole minute. You can't honestly call this skill balanced. Pika Fan 01:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I can, but how would you suggest weakening it? ~Shard 01:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Reduce the amount of skills to be "diverted". Scale it to ~1-3(tweak the numbers accordingly). Reduce the disable duration to 0...16 seconds. Make it such that a good use of this skill reduces pressure/spiking power significantly, but not to the extent that using this skill makes your team autowin because the opposing team can't do anything about it.

I think the idea behind this skill is good, but using a skill(especially when it's easy to use, just slap it on someone taking lots of damage) should not make or break a game. Pika Fan 01:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You can't auto-win with a 3 second weapon spell that only affects one ally... if the oppsing team eats it, they deserve what they get. -~=Sparky (talk) 02:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you can. Use this version of XW like infuse against any build, and see what happens when they spike. Pika Fan 02:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

If the blackout effect was shorter than this skill's recharge, nobody would run it. It's the same reason nobody ran the old Xinrae's (it had nothing to do with the energy cost). If anything, the max disable time should equal the recharge, but I'd be glad to know what you think about that. ~Shard 03:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Remember that this also has no other utility (and even removes any defensive weapon spells that might be on the target) and lets unique copies through 100% of the time. For a 3 second duration, this has to have a pretty nasty effect. It could scale the same as Diversion, but any less would make it fairly weak. -~=Sparky (talk) 03:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It shuts down the user's own copy of that skill, so it is not completely useless. ~Shard 03:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course, but it will catch at most 1 skill (when fighting against semi-intelligent players) and quite likely none. Spikers will quickly learn that weapon spell icon means "wait 1-2 seconds or swap targets." -~=Sparky (talk) 03:58, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

1 skill per person actively using a skill at the time XW is cast* -~=Sparky (talk) 03:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You greatly overestimate the intelligence level of most players in GW. ~Shard 04:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I think this change should be used in PvE as well. Would be FANTASTIC to shutdown those big, homogeneous groups of enemies in Prophecies that are annoying as all hell. -- Hong 04:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the change makes the skill too powerful given good use. I would rather see a 3...9...11 disable and 25 given that effect. This is simply because of how useless gimmick teams would be made by this skill, the fact that users would get their balls chopped off by it, and that when used during a spike the opposing team misses out on at least 2 maybe 3 other spike opportunities. The 30+ second disable just seems too... good. 9-10 seconds given high attribute investment seems far more fair. More than that in any case is simply ridiculous in my opinion. ~>Sins WDB 18:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"given good use"

Given good reaction against it makes it near-useless (although, it does remind me a lot of an elite version of Aegis (PvP)). Anyone that gets a party-wide blackout effect from this (I'm looking at you, flooms) deserves it for multiple reasons. Look at Diversion, which is non-elite. -~=Sparky (talk) 19:36, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody would use it if it only disabled for 10 seconds. 10 seconds is not a long time. I've also changed it to affect only spells, so attack skills and the like aren't affected by it. ~Shard 20:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I still feel the skill is too strong for the reason that you can't effectively "know" when XW goes up and avoid casting spells, unlike diversion. It is probably more balanced in this state, but I still feel 30 seconds is too long. I was actually thinking about giving XW 15 recharge, same duration and effect, except "disable skills(not just spells) used on target ally for additional 1...9 seconds. Pika Fan 22:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I feel like it's just a gimmick killer. Bloodspike, IV, SF, etc... all this does is make those team builds worthless with no effort. You say it's bad how players can do so well with minimal effort, yet with 1 button you disarm a whole team for 30+ seconds. The point of allowing gimmick builds is to help players learn to play as a team, without having to be exceedingly good at a particular playstyle.~>Sins WDB 02:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Seconding Underwood. Just Buildwars. Also, this might be tad broken against stuff like Bflash and surge - both semi-legit skills that have to be spammed on the frontline. What happens when your melee hate gets axed?

Tbh, these 3 sec burst enchantments of yours are a little 'make or break' shard. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:21, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing how it would be any more powerful than diversion (aside from being cast faster) against regular teams. Unless your whole team is "spiking" one warrior with antimelee hexes, you'd only likely disable one skill. ~Shard 19:51, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Diversion's 3 second cast time is it's only drawback. Mesmers leak or leach it, ranger's savage or distract it. That's why properly using diversion is a bitch - because every balanced team packs one type of KD or shutdown on their frontline and plenty in the midline. DS, SS, PBlock (lol) , PLeach, PSpike, take your pick. Shock, horns, etc can all reasonably hurt a diversion packing mesmer. That's why it has a 3 sec casttime - if it didn't, everyone would be running 4-5 copies of it, because diversion fucking hurts.

Your onmi diversion is irremovable, cheap as hell, is a decent attrib line that can be used by both secondary and primary profs without much loss of efficiency, and casts in a quarter of a second. Blinding will get axed. So will diversion. So will every other targetted spell. The only balacning mechanism you got going is the recharge, which, frankly, makes the skill either highly unsuable or grossly OP.

So no one will pack it. Lower the recharge to about 12 (diversion levels) Bring cast up to 1 second (so decent mesmers can get it), and lower diversion time to about 12-15 seconds. You know, make it milder. your version is quite powerful against SF, but you should know more than anyone that build specific counters (especially elite ones) always fail to fulfill their purpose. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:42, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Alternative

Xinrae's Weapon - 10 ¼ 25 - "(Elite Weapon Spell) Target ally has a Xinrae's Weapon for 1...3...3 seconds. Whenever an opponent uses a skill targeting that ally, that skill is disabled on all foes for 4...10...12 seconds."

I'm putting this here, because I feel like it would be better to have in the game than the current version of this skill. I also don't feel like creating my own suggestion of this, partly because it's based off Shard's and partly because I just don't like the idea of having two similar xinrae pages.

So here's the deal. I like the idea of it disabling opposing offense. This version has general usefulness, a moderate effect, and reasonable costs. The desired effects i like are temporary spike disable potential and adrenal skill disable potential. I feel this is better than Shard's version for several reasons.

• 1. It doesn't kill gimmick teams offense for 30+ seconds. It does so for ~10, which is plenty of time for energy and recharge.
• 2. The disable can't be upkept forever, even with a HSR effect.
• 3. The use of this version is far less situational in effectiveness, which i think is desired in elite skills.
• 4. I feel a 10 second disable lasting ~3 seconds on an ally is balanced for an elite skill.

The cost on the energy pool 10, which is to me about right for such a powerful effect. The recharge forces effective use, yet the skill effect is such that it's useful in any situation even splits. The 1/4 cast is justified as it's duration is only 3 seconds. The effect can be powerful, it can potentially take out an entire teams spike offense for an additional 10 seconds of recharge, which adds up to be longer vs adrenaline users. Given that a decent team spike recharges in about 10 seconds that's probably 20 seconds of advantage you have as opposed to 10. Feel free to disagree. I'll hear your points, but in response to those who wish the disable be higher or the recharge to be lower... no and no. A 15 second disable means spikes can be easily redisabled after use every time a team has it recharge. Same if the recharge get's dropped, if you get lucky with an HSR good for you.~>Sins WDB 06:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you are missing the very point of this skill. A blackout time of 10 seconds, for the cost and recharge you're suggestion, is far too weak to be usable, even if you ONLY fought caster spikes. I wanted it to be strong enough that it would be a "usable" skill against real teams. XR is supposed to dominate caster spikes. ~Shard 02:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Shard, the biggest problem with your suggestion is the disable to all party members. Your skill is created specifically to make entire gimmick caster spike teams unable to use their spike spells, I prefer the more general use of skills to individuals. If ~6 players can't cast half their blood spike skills, or half their nukes, or SF, or whatever the cast gimmick is, will a team bring down anyone with a somewhat competent backline? The answer is no. You must be able to see that if a team's offensive capabilities become near useless by a single skill for an uptime between 50-100%, that skill is OP.

In regard to my position, I feel like the recharge on my take should be 20 seconds.~>Sins WDB 06:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Being too good at shutting down gimmick teams is never a problem. If they want to win, they should learn how to play. ~Shard 18:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Gimmicks are a simple way for people to learn the concept of team coordination. I support them existing.~>Sins WDB 00:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

If something's easy to play, it should be easy to beat. Back when Prophs was released, people ran minion factory (the kind where they had to kill themselves, not the kind we have now), and all you needed was a ranger with whirling defense to tank the minions for big domages. People also used to run EoE bomb, which was the fastest possible way to win, but had a low chance of actually winning. This is what gimmicks are supposed to be like. If new people want to learn how to play, sway and SF spike is not how they should start. I didn't start being good until I got into balanced teams. ~Shard 00:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this really needs to have a powerful effect for such a short duration and no other effects. It should have very obvious and distinctive sound and animations. A half-intelligent team shouldn't get more than 1 skill disabled (on those that were already almost done casting their spells when XW is cast), and an ignorant team can get at most 2 skills disabled on anyone happening to cast spells on the target. 3 second duration isn't an extremely easy way to counter things - it takes skill to actually get it in at a crucial time (which delays the spike for 1-2 seconds, long enough to get an actual spike preventer - essentially wasting your elite), which could just cause them to quickly switch targets and spike anyways. Obviously if the meta could actually devote an elite to this, then people will deal with it like the above or the following: Diversioning the Rt on a spike, sort of like Rending for a clean spike; making R-spikers instead; Wounding Strike is unaffected. Certaintly, it might prevent some people from forming SF teams, but it definitely won't kill them (even with a 30-45 max disable and 25-30 recharge). -~=Sparky (talk) 02:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

You're forgetting smiteballs shard, and that wasn't easy to beat. In fact, that's why smiting was crap for two years (not now, that's another story).

Oh, and this version is still buildwars. -- NUKLEAR IIV 21:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It's less buildwarsey than "The other team can't split on you ever." I also didn't mention this is supposed to be spawning power like the original. Sorry for that confusion. ~Shard 01:50, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh shard, how happy would it make me for there to be a reason for primary rits to exist again XD 05:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

While it's better for the balance of the game as whole this way, I don't see anyone packing a Rt just to be able counter spell spikes. -- NUKLEAR IIV 17:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I like this idea (it's better than having two WoRs, anyway), but I think the duration is just too short and the recharge too long. Making it's uptime higher and lowering the disable duration would make it just that little bit more viable outside of caster spikes imo. At the moment, if you happen to misuse it just once or the enemy team breaks off a spike or whatever, you could get no benefit (or just a single disable) from it for the next 30 seconds (and it costs 10 energy too). 86.27.179.159 13:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

10 energy over a 30 second recharge is rather insignificant in a caster energy pool, that's why aegis was 15 before its function change. ~>Sins WDB 14:16, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The whole reason XR was changed is because it was too clunky (and it was bad but anyway). We need a happy medium between mindless spammability and an effect which is super-powerful when it works but potentially useless if it fails and very costly either way (high energy cost and/or recharge). Also, Aegis' effect was perhaps not as powerful as this, but it did cover the whole party for a duration. Here it gives a single burst or good protection, much like the new Aegis. A lower recharge and disable duration is, to my mind, more user-friendly. 188.74.101.228 20:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)