Feedback talk:User/Taki Fujiko/Reaper's Sweep

I like it more how it is now +40 dmg is kinda nice if anything id like to see recharge lowered to 6 seconds. 89.166.101.7 22:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer seing WS toned down than every other dervish elite brought up. 76.94.72.204 04:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Same here but if reapers sweep would only cause +40 dmg to foes under 50% hp wud be lame ... 195.95.208.223 10:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I would like to see this skill have a 1 second activation time. This is simply because you can quickly land the attack when you see someone's health bar drop below that 50% threshold.~>Sins WDB 15:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) You can't be serious. This is so overpowered, especially if the changes you all suggest made it in. Nothing should be compared to WS - it's so overpowered as it is. This is basically an instakill every 8 seconds to something under half health, and a guaranteed enchantment ripper otherwise to negate guardian or something. Seriously, lrn2balance.--Alce What's today's Build? 03:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

This skill is hardly different than Eviscerate. The only differences are the > 50% health enchant removal and it's energy based instead of AD. That means eviscerate is infinitely better as a spike skill, because DW is guarenteed.~>Sins WDB 17:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

5-Energy deepwounds are not okay, especially with a short cooldown and an additional +40 damage to it. With your suggestion of a 1s activation time, it'd be even more disgusting than the original idea. If it didn't have a useful over 50% effect it'd be better, but as it is it's a big fail at a balance.--Alce What's today's Build? 19:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Crushing Blow apparently isn't okay, nor is Plague Sending or Plague Signet, or Golden Fang Strike. You fail to take into account that dervishes don't have the armor to be as involved in the frontline as a warrior. Your limited scope of balancing based on a skill to skill basis is wrong. The reason a 1 second activation time would be okay is because it requires timing to a player under 50% health, especially on a spike. As for the + damage it's high, but so are Eviscerate's and Executioner's Strike. Reaper's Sweep is conditional DW, people don't linger under 50% health. It's like playing WoH in an offensive style, except its melee range which is the balance. ~>Sins WDB 22:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from violating NPA. You are starting to comment on the author as opposed to the comment.

Now that that's out of the way, Dervishes don't need the armor when they get healed by every enchantment on your monks. They also add so much pressure with AoE DW or enchantment removal with a single skill.

Next, you don't time to apply DW with RS. When you run a dervish, you spike to burn your opponent's monks of their energy as much as possible. Their monks have to do double the protting, or not prot at all, and either way is a lose-lose situation for them.

Eviscerate is balanced by the time it takes to charge up. If you miss with it, you have to get through all the silly melee-hate to charge it up again. Hey, RS doesn't need to be charged up, you can just run in and use it without any skill. So what if you miss with RS? Just wait 8 seconds. This means Eviscerate needs much more skill to use than RS.

It's like playing WoH, except it is melee range, but you win above and below 50%.

Oh, one more thing: Crushing Blow, Plague Sending, Plague Signet are all conditional and useless without another skill. You have a small window of opportunity to land Crushing Blow through all the melee hate, and the two PSes are somewhat balanced because they can't land DWs directly without taking DW yourself and you need another skill to set up for it. Do the math and you are looking at a 2 second cast time for the DW to set in an optimal situation.116.14.195.213 22:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Dervishes don't need the armor when they get healed by every enchantment on your monks. <--- what... ? mysticism ? seriously..? 89.166.101.7 22:54, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

what... ? your? monks? don't? have? or? do? not? know? how? to ? prot? Pika Fan 22:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

IP 116. All spikers spike to bring down a target, monks burning energy is a natural result regardless of who is doing the spiking. AoE from scythes is a team body block breaker, fine as far as im concerned since the concept is no different than a nuke, and only is a problem in stupid situations like the giant mosh pit in halls (another issue entirely). The mention of double protting doesn't make sense, unless you are referring to double enchanting. If that's what you are talking about, I'm sure people will be devestated when their patient spirit is stripped if they get hit through guardian or WoW.

Eviscerate is balanced by the time it takes to charge up, RS is balanced by an 8 second recharge and being used on a two handed weapon on a low armor profession. Dervs dont need armor! They get healed for 9-10 more health from patient spirit and RoF! (lol) You have to build adrenaline to get DW from eviscerate therefore it takes skill, you have to time landing a hit to land DW on a target therefore RS takes skill.

It's like playing WoH, except its melee range (the melee range you didn't touch bcs I'm right and you know it). WoH you win with a 120 heal above 50% and win with a 240 heal below 50%. RS you win if you hit above 50% with a 50-120 (85 avg) hit + enchant removal and win with with an 185 avg health loss below 50% + make WoH heal for ~195 until DW is removed. Wow those two skills have such a disparity in effect dont they... I mean one is ranged with half the recharge and the other removes an enchantment with 2x the activation time (currently), completely different...

Crushing Blow, Plague Sending, Plague Signet are all conditional DW (so is golden fang technically). Reaper's Sweep is conditional DW! (zomg!) It however does only require 1 skill. Good call +1 among all the -s for you, but it is elite... I'll still give you the +1.

The PSes require a draw therefore it takes 2 seconds to apply! Oh darn, spikes last for about 1-3 seconds and ppl are smart enough to load themselves with DW ahead of time. Anymore arguements that you'd like me to disprove?~>Sins WDB 00:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Except with Reaper's Sweep, you need to double prot a person above 50% or not prot at all. Do you not understand the implications of that? With other skills, you probably only need a Guardian, shielding hands, or SoA. That point was clearly and blatantly overlooked. That, combined with conditional DW is worth an elite. Easily.

RS doesn't require skill. The whole point, as pointed just above, is to make monks burn more energy than usual protting spikes. Dervs need armor, but they are balanced by mysticism and are healed for each enchantment put on them, then unbalanced by the way that with each skill they force monks to burn more energy than most other skills can possibly do.. And guess what? People run smites with dervs, that's the reality, because it increase the amount of defense the derv and other members in the party have, while contributing substantially to the amount of damage output.

That comment about woh is pretty bad. You use patient above 50%, so basically, it is a loss when you use woh above 50%. I wish to ask politely whether you have experience monking? Next, I wish to point out that energy on monks is more valuable than energy on any frontline character. It should be pretty obvious to anyone.

I mentioned that all those skills require another skill to apply their conditional. Your comments show that that fact is deliberately skipped, and thus I don't have anything to refute. Also, bar compression is one of the key criterion for deciding whether a skill should be elite or not.

ppl are smart enough to load themselves with DW ahead of time This part made me laugh. You have frontliners and paragons to apply DW. FF + PS has always been used to apply and reduce pressure by sending whatever conditions the opponents apply back at them. Necros apply Defile Defenses on spikes, or strip enchantments. Your comments suggest a lack of understanding of necros in this regard.Pika Fan 01:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

You clearly missed the point I made about a patient spirit cover. It's the easiest way to cover any prot enchants from single removal and is even more perfect against RS, because it's in effect like a RoF at that point. Don't you ever do that to hold veil? I don't know why you are even mentioning SH at all as a prot against a scythe. SoA is the only way to go, but it's really only useful to stop scythe damage during ganks. And even though every point of health swinging in your favor is helpful, SH is rather moot against scythes. RS is going to be used during a gank to land DW not disenchant, usually a necro or mesmer does that. I wonder if you are familair with monking against RS at all, because I am.

And no the WoH comparison is not bad, the comparison is perfect. I never said don't use PS over WoH while over 50%. Again, it's the comparison I was focused on. Your assuming, you overlook the comparison entirely and assume "WTH who uses WoH over 50%!" while missing the point, gj.

You also obviously missed that I gave a +1 because someone noticed RS is conditional DW without another skill. So, no I didn't overlook that arguement, I applauded it. This brings me to a query does W/X unconditional DW = W/X chain DW = D/X disenchant>50%/dw<50%? Obviously not if Dismember and Crushing blow win (Eviscerate is meh bcs of dismember).

I'm glad you got a chuckle though, always fun to see people laugh because they can't think outside a paradigm. What a necro sends depends on what a build needs. It's not a preset thing before the team is even made. So if you need DD or Rend they will send those in. If you need DW they send the plague. IV spike is a decent example, it's the alternative in between Augury of Deaths. Intentionally limiting your view of what you think should be done is a bad idea FYI. Are you done trying to make me look ignorant about this yet?~>Sins WDB 02:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you merely supported my point. If you need to cover a prot with patient, isn't that basically double protting, except you have a heal and a prot?

It is bad, because there are better skills on your bar to bring a target above 50% health back up, as opposed to reaper's sweep, where the conditional on triggering above 50% is arguably as good as applying the below 50% conditional.

No, I did not miss that part. You stated that part, yet you contradicted yourself by arguing that it is still conditional like crushing blow etc in a one-dimensional way, which showed you did notice, but refused to accept facts as is. The part about eviscerate being "meh" because of dismember is funny. +40 damage on a spike is not something to be scoffed at.

Here's what I don't understand: I thought it was obvious that if your build's most reliable source of DW is coming from FF+PS, the build needs some reviewing for efficiency. If one is relying on their opponent applying DW, and keeping DW on themself until you need it on spike, the build isn't good. Intentionally broadening one's view to cater to exceptional and rare circumstances just ignores the solutions to the most common circumstances. Fact is 99% of the times, the main source of DW is going to come from a para/frontline because they can. Stating exceptional situations like IV spike doesn't help your point. Stating exceptions while totally ignoring the reality of 99% of the matches in HA/GvG isn't going to help anyone except throw in red herrings which derail the argument. Pika Fan 03:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Technically no it's not double protting, but rather double enchanting. I get the idea though.

You still are overlooking that the comparison between WoH and RS is pretty damn similar and basically balances out (I disected this a little bit and we could delve much deeper I you feel like it). You are right about there being better skills for >50%, but that wasn't mentioned by me anywhere.

I'm really confused by the contradiction that I can't admit about RS being conditional DW. I'm lost, did I say it wasn't conditional? I'm reading over it and still can't figure it out.

My point wasn't to build around a necro using another teams DW, though it would be amusing. It was that situationally you have opportunities given various mechanics and I was focusing on DW in regard to condition xfer. Your right though, theory craft doesn't always mean tendency. I'm a logical thinker, but I'm a philosophical type and it's how I prefer to think. So my bad if my examples or comparisons sometimes show up as few and far between. It's not like I'm far off by calling halls a mosh pit though, lol.~>Sins WDB 04:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I am not. The comparison would have been good if WoH had a comparable benefit if triggered above 50% like it does when triggered below 50%, which it does not. RS has a good effect when triggered above 50%, and a good effect when triggered below 50%, whereas WoH is wasted when triggered above 50% because patient is a better choice, and a good effect triggered below 50%.

I'm really confused as to why people can't understand that they can't simply argue two skills are similar in power and usage just because they are conditional. It gets one-dimensional and annoying to argue against when people totally ignore the fact that the skills compared have each extremely different conditionals.

My point was your arguments have to be in line with reality. I will assume you have understood why comparing RS to PS was a giant red herring. Pika Fan 05:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

This suggestion

is terrible. The problem with Reaper's sweep isn't that it's not as good as wounding strike. The problem is that it's close. Both need nerfs. ~Shard 03:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I am sorry Shard, Dervishes have lower armor, so they need to be able to ignore prots and maintain DW on the entire opponent's party, else there would not be any difference to Crushing Blow, Dismember, Eviscerate and FF/PS. Pika Fan 03:15, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Currently the skills state is not OP. It definitely wasn't before the enchant removal was added, but I can justify with melee range + the recharge is high enough that it can't be spammed. ~>Sins WDB 04:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

So, I assume that your notion of balance is to buff all existing skills to a powerlevel comparable to the most powerful skill in the profession's repertoire? I am sorry, but I am going to call bullshit on that one. It's just called power creep - buffing a skill, buffing it's counters then buffing the counters to the counters is just one vicious cycle. Pika Fan 05:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

So, I assume that your notion of balance is to nerf all existing skills to a powerlevel comparable to the most weakest skill in the profession's repertoire? I am sorry, but I am going to call bullshit on that one. It's just called power creep - nerfing a skill, nerfing it's counters then nerfing the counters to the counters is just one vicious cycle. 195.95.208.223 09:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

So, you do not have any evidence of me suggesting what you said above, yet you proceeded to give such a presumptuous and ignorant statement about something that doesn't exist in reality? Just because I said A is bad, does not mean I am telling everyone the converse is good. Also, please use the term "power creep" with respect to its proper meaning, thanks [1]. It gets really funny when people use terms with meanings they do not understand. Pika Fan 12:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what the big fuss is about my suggestion, linking the 40 damage to the deepwound and unblockability to the enchant removal hardly makes this skill as powerfull as Wounding Strike, yet a bit less sucky. Remember: If you use Reaper's to remove a guardian, you won't be able to apply DW for the next 8 seconds, by when guardian has long recharged already. -- 13:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Because the game only allows you to run one dervish at any point of time, and people don't run more than 1 dervish in a party. Pika Fan 13:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Block stances? Infuse? Also, caster enchant removal is unblockable and does side-effects most of the time too. All this does is 10-70 damage depending on crits; Remember, I've removed the bonus damage from >50% HP targets, that was the reason because with bonus dmg it becomes a new shitway spike. Or, just fix HA already by allowing a maximum of 2 per class into it. That way the gimmick shitfest will end, too. -- 13:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry? Infuse is the last option for the monk to save their targets. I don't want a skill that forces me to infuse without the need for any measure of skill. You seriously made me laugh, and just shows how much understanding you have of the game. Pika Fan 13:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it fun venturing into the NPA realm regularly? This skill is hardly more powerful than Pain of Disenchantment after the proposed buff, which removes multiple enchants and causes a guaranteed 94 damage. Actually they would be pretty comparable in power level then. Also, how about enchanting a target under 50%? It won't remove any further enchants there and is blockable. -- 14:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Or you could start making sensible comments, then I wouldn't have to make jibes at what you say. Naming another skill that has been power creeped doesn't add to your side of the argument, especially a skill that doesn't have a similar usage. Also, nobody leaves a target under 50% if they can help it, I am not sure why you even suggested that. Please try harder to prove that saying your comments lack understanding of the game is wrong. Pika Fan 14:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

How about making suggestions about useless skills rather than almost balanced skills ? Raemon 16:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

@ Pika from above. Thx, for admitting you're assuming this time i guess. WoH is the best skill for red baring in a monk arsenal. Let's say RS is best for the dervish if the skills are going to be completely balanced they need to do have the exact same costs and effects except the direction of the red bar. 5 for both, red bar effects are pretty equal. Differences are range, melee vs spell. That's how many times more effective? Around 10x better? Activation is .75 seconds maybe half that vs 1.75 and maybe 33% faster than that, that's at least 2x as effective there. Recharge is 3 maybe half that vs 8 seconds 2.67 times better, nearly 3x more effective. So far I count WoH being 14.67x better than RS, which leaves plenty of room for a disenchant effect. Say the bar compression for disenchant makes RS 5x better or 10x better, that still leaves WoH ~10x or ~5x better.

ALs of the professions are close 70 vs 60, but the scythe is a two handed weapon and monks can hold onto their shield set far more often while being effective, so the armor difference doesn't tell us much. Myst vs DF, is tough to compare, but it's 3.4 per rank for monk spells vs 1 per rank for any enchant. Number of enchants on an average team that will affect a dervish, we'll be generous and say 10. Given those 10 enchants, the frequency of enchants hitting a derv ending on a derv during combat depends, but we'll be generous again and say that an enchant ends on a dervish once every 6 seconds during combat. We'll be even more generous and say that all of that energy is effectively returned without waste due to the energy pool being full. Given that usually we see myst around 10 that's 3 energy returned and 10 health. DF heals for more but Myst gives dervs better energy, which ends up being an extra pip+1/2 over the course of combat. So DF heals targets for 2.4x more than Myst heals a derv, and Myst makes dervs return useful energy 37.5% better than a monk. A lot of that energy get's wasted because of melee hate and snaring to gain position. Auto attacking for a scythe ranges from 13-86 given crits, avg is about 45 and that takes no energy. Since, dervs will probably be landing 2 hits with one of them being RS that's ~130 dmg over 3.5 seconds vs WoH's 120 over 3.75 seconds. I'm canceling out 40/40 sets and the effects of IAS/cancels, not because they aren't worth discussing or breaking down, but to try to maintain simplicity. Under 50% it's a 130+DW RS+auto-attack vs 240 WoH comparison. WoH is available more twice as often as RS, as mentioned before.

So, I'm wondering what makes RS on a dervish OP in your eyes? If you would consider this a staple skill without the enchant removal effect and compare it to WoH are they equal in your eyes? If not why? If so why is it not with the enchant removal? I'm not trying to make every skill as powerful as every other. I'm trying to compare effects and equal them out. Enlighten me on what I'm failing to consider, because I dealt with generalizations in most of my break down. If the RS is OP in a situation you describe is it because of RS itself or the something else? I really don't get why RS is OP in people's opinions and above is why.~>Sins WDB 21:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It was an intelligent assumption, considering you feel that RS should be buffed to meet the standards of WS. And since WS has been considered by pretty much every player worth noting as the most powerful benchmark in the dervish arsenal...

Now, WoH *looks* to be more powerful than RS. That's only because you fail to see that 1 (heal) monk will always outheal 1 damage dealer. Feel free to name any damage dealer in-game that outdamages one (heal) monk. Probably only a bad unprepared (heal) monk gets soloed by a sin or a hammer war. When you apply the same one-dimensional view of "balance", you notice all other offensive characters are balanced, be it paras in paraspike, hexes in hexway etc. Again, I implore people to actually look at the bigger picture. Damage dealers don't pack only 1 attack skill on their bar. Damage dealers do not come in groups of 1(well, they do, if you say 5 groups of 1, but I hope you get my point here). That 1 woh skill has to deal with more than 15 other attack skills on the other side of the opponent's team.

So let's say, we run 2 dervishes, 2 eles, 2 smites, 2 monks. One dervish brings WS to undermine RC, the other brings RS to undermine prots/enchantments, eles have the general utility set(song of concentration, make haste, snares blabla) with fire magic, smites have RoD, Smite Condition, Smite Hex with some added utility/extra skills(usually enchantment removal to undermine channeling, prots and HB, as well as some extra party healing with dual delights). Monks are standard HA monk backline. The reason why I picked this build is that it is one of the more common HA teambuild that contains a dervish. Some run two WS simply because they can maintain DW on the entire party, but a really good prot can prot everything, and 1 WS derv is really enough. All you need to do to roll the other team, is to AoE, AoE, AoE and more AoE, aka use skills on recharge. Thanks to the nice maps in HA, every single form of AoE you bring is brought to it's fullest potential.

You need 1 cast of RC to heal up 1 swipe of WS(sometimes if your positioning is bad, it's 2-3 casts), and when the RS dervish calls spikes on targets every 8 seconds because he and the fire eles can, be prepared to burn anywhere from 10 energy on the heal monk and 15 energy on the prot monk.

RS is powerful because you don't need any prior setup beforehand to use it, for all other adrenal skills you need plenty of time to charge them up. You only need to worry about your smites removing snares and melee hate on time on you, and to get in range of your target. The warrior has to painstakingly get through all the snares and melee hate to even charge up his adrenaline, then pray to whatever omniscient being that his adrenal spike doesn't get interrupted in some way, whereas if the dervish fails, just spam more eremites, mystic and crippling sweep until RS comes back in 8 seconds.

Whenever you run dervishes, you compensate by slapping more defense on your party, because the dervish is a glass cannon. So in this case, you bring smites, which is the perfect complement to a dervish because it removes unwanted conditions and hexes off the dervish, assists in pressure with smites, as well as prots in the form of RoD.

Conclusion: To most people, balance = one-sided equalization between 2 skills(especially a healing skill and a attack skil, which is not. If that were the case, you either run 4 monks or none at all. Skills should always require skill on the part of the player to be good, and not button mashing to be effective. You should always be punished for using skills in a wrong way, monks get punished for using woh above 50% because they waste energy, but dervishes don't need energy, and don't feel the pain of using RS on a target above 50% because they know that burning the prots on the prot monk or patient on the infuse monk is worth using up 5 energy in an infinite energy pool. Pika Fan 23:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

And we all know that dervishes have infinite amount of energy + its easier to keep war alive than derv . war>derv 89.166.101.7 23:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

So we do proper balancing by simply increasing the power creep and base numbers instead of looking into ways to properly make dervishes a viable choice as a whole. P.S. It is harder to keep a derv up in GvG, but is painfully easy to do so in HA. The only 2 reasons why people don't run dervishes in HA is because 1) not running recognized meta builds gets yourself ganked out of halls if you are recognized by another guild you don't have diplomatic relations to 2) people get off their large epeen when they win with a "balanced" build. Cheers. Pika Fan 23:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I didnt say that we shud buff this skill instead we should buff the most unusable skills like Arcane Zeal, Balthazar's Rage, Dust Cloak etc + i think chilling victory should be changed to mysticism or back to scythe mastery. Most usefull dervish skills are in the scythe mastery so it is almost always better to run assassin,ranger or warrior instead of derv ... 89.166.101.7 00:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Eww chilling victory back to Myst or Scythe? No way, That skill needs to be elite if it's what it is in either of those attributes. Adding 75 damage to an attack skill isn't okay. RS looks strong bcs it can add 140, but DW isn't additive it's a 1 time thing and reapplying it doesn't take away 100 more health. Chilling victory is additive and two dervs hit for 150 + ~90 dmg avg from a scythe. That's 240 avg vs 60AL from 2 hits, and if you have both follow with... say RS that's ~170 + DW. Do I really need to say that 4 hits from two players in a 2 second or faster interval dropping health by 500 is OP?

Pika, I get that HA is cramped. Do you blame AoE or the maps though? I say you have to blame ANet for the maps, because when you look around, maps in other parts of the game are more open. Most warriors aren't ignorant enough to try and push through snares without spearing, so that's not as bad as you make it out to be. I don't want RS to be as strong as WS. I would like to see a 1 second activation time on the skill as opposed to enchant ripping, because it fits the role better. Midliners play a different kind of role, which makes it so the game isn't 4 healers vs 4 dmg dealers. It is supposed to be a balanced equation and certain midline roles fit in there. Mesmers for example have shutdown for both dmg and healers. Rangers are another good example, they have disruption which is useful against both dmg dealers and healers, crip and interrupts. The roles both are effective against each other too. In concept it is all balanced out. It looks just like a linked equation instead of a two sided one... damage dealers = shutdown/disruptors = healers. That's a balanced team, you could take out the middle portion and it still be balanced, but that would be much less interesting. ~>Sins WDB 03:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Except it's not, if you actually play the game. Offense far overpowers passive defense and HA is basically based on how much AoE you can bring on your team. The maps in HA is really not the problem, maps need to be fairly small so people can't run griefing builds and run around the whole map. The problem is that the skills that abuse this fact are actually OPed as they are. By buffing these skills that already effectively overpower other skills in their arsenal, you are merely adding to the problem. Anet can't really change how the map is sized without without introducing extra mechanics that prevent griefing; however, they can easily adjust the power and functions of skills that exploit the size and mechanics of the map.

With respect to GvG, people bring obscene amount of defense at this point to cope with pressure and spikes in the meta(paras with defense shouts with a snare ele, snare ele and bsurge midline), which suggests that the amount of power creep is to the point that it is extremely degenerate.

Giving dervs more fast activation skills merely defeats the purpose of running IAS. I don't want a dervish without an IAS attacking just as fast as a warrior with an IAS, giving them more bar compression as a whole.Pika Fan 04:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

This is where opinions differ then, because I don't think passive defenses should out do offense. Though I'm not sure that this is your view it doesn't seem that way based on what you normally write, it's just confusing how you worded things above. I think, in regard to HA, you mean to say that AoE offense is about as passive as the certain defenses. I can't disagree with that, because heal party, PwK, Life, and Stand Your Ground are about the only skills that can counter nukes + scythes in halls. The problem is though, in HA positioning is limited in so many situations. In a game where positioning rules, why would you create a game type with such limitations? Griefing isn't a problem where positioning has more meaning, because teams have to take it into account and do or fail. However, assuming the limited space isn't the problem... when you have ele's with half a bar of nukes by themselves that's clearly an issue. Problem is ANet has a huge number difference between effective AoE defenses and AoE offenses. So do you balance nukes based on their most exploitative possibilities or what people should be using them as? You have to balance around the exploit unless you are going to force players out of the exploit with limitations, which can and has been achieved through skill effects. My view is that the problem is a lack of attention to one of the game's original focal points, position.

Back to skills, I think over time you must give professions more means to fulfill their roles. This is simply because after a while there will be a clear power build. Now, what can you do to change that? You either nerf what's in power, buff what's not (powercreep), or add new mechanics to deal with (also powercreep). Clearly, the overwhelming majority of the time we see powercreep it's important to have nerf updates though. I loved the update where WoH's heal was reverted, lots of good stuff there. Point I'm trying to make is, powercreep is necessary to make sure the game isn't stagnant. You can revert anything you choose afterwards, but you have to pick things out that divisions among the player base want. I'm for nerfs, buffs, and mechanic changes, but limiting yourself to being for only one of those would be silly and bad for the game. ~>Sins WDB 03:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry to wake you up from your dream, but powercreep only made GW dead the way it is now. Also, offence has to be larger than defense, that much is obvious or you can't score kills, I have never said healing should be more than damage; rather, damage has to not be at a point where you faceroll on your keyboard and make people die.

I am convinced you definitely have no clue as to what I am trying to point at. Skills need to require skill to use. Good play needs to be rewarded with a good effect(putting pressure on the other team, or even scoring a kill), and bad plays need to be punished(taking more pressure and/or dying). Since day one, I have been pointing out the fact you want skills to reward pounding buttons because of some twisted view of "hey it makes the game more fun".

P.S. I really don't think that I am that hard to understand if I have been saying since day 1 that skills should need skill to use. This is why I really hate arguing with people in general because they can't read for nuts. Pika Fan 04:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Skills should require skill to be effective and can require skill to use, and I never said they shouldn't. It doesn't actually take skill to use d-shot, it takes skill to make d-shot effective. The least skillful skills imo are in Fire Magic. They are ranged red bar skills that require bare minimum effort for effectiveness. The most skillful skills, again imo, are melee adrenal skills. Adrenal skills, ranged or melee, are the only skills I can think of that require skill to use, besides most long activation skills. Energy melee skills usually aren't as skillful as adrenal, but they are up there because you still have to play better positioning and avoid melee hate. RS requires skill and would still require skill no matter what unless it becomes ranged. The saddest thing is if scythe attacks were ranged, minus the AoE, I have something similar to compare them to... Mirror of Ice.

You admit that dervs are glass cannons, which in and of itself is a balance. Yet, the problem isn't RS itself, in the build you described its the combination of scythe AoE, WS, smite AoE, nuke AoE, and the fact that the importance of positioning was overlooked in HA maps. Anywhere else in PvP AoE is no where near as effective as in HA, actually I take it back zaishen challenges win that. Anyways, you blame all these problems on one thing when it's the sum of the parts. AoE skills are mindless in HA, because of map layouts. AoE is mindless in the zaishen challenges becase AI is retarded. In most maps in GvG and Arenas AoE is not a problem. ~>Sins WDB 17:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

If AoE is only a problem in HA and if it doesn't add very much in other areas, wouldn't it be a good idea to limit AoE as much as possible? Dark Morphon 15:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

DoT AoE maybe, but that's a mechanic that should be strong enough to force movement. Maybe DoT AoE should be limited to two skills per bar, I dunno. Catching teams when they aren't spaced out very well should be rewarded. Area should have the weakest return, nearby should be a moderate return, and adjacent should be a strong return. The longer the range of AoE the weaker it should and the closer the range of AoE the stronger it should be. Smite hex and condition, Searing flames in group, and Rodgort's don't really follow that. Though for the most part I think that mentality is followed, but the problem in HA is you have to stay in a relatively small area to win in several cases. This brings us full circle.~>Sins WDB 19:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

With "limit" I mean "don't do it". Sorry if I caused any misunderstanding. Dark Morphon 15:53, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Wounding Strike II

Wounding Strike is more overpowered than this, so let's make this more like it? I think not. This is more than powerful enough as it is... it seems one cheap, Deep Wound-spamming AoE attack with a secondary effect wasn't enough, so ANet made a sequel. Making it even more powerful is ridiculous. WS needs a bit of a nerf, and RS probably needs a nerf too but imo it's OK as it is as long as WS is brought down to its level, but buffing RS is just plain stupid. Sorry, but it is. Widowmaker 16:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)