Feedback talk:User/Tha Reckoning/Rampage As One

R/P doesnt use RaO, you dont need movement speed when youre ranged, they usually use beastial fury and stunning strike Talamare 04:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Many of them do use it. The IMS helps their pets do damage more quickly to kiting targets. ~Shard 04:36, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

use call of haste instead, stunning strike is better for R/P then RaO Talamare 04:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think doubling the recharge is a good suggestion at all. If it does need a nerf, maybe a slight extension of even two seconds to the recharge would give it downtime that would slow down RaOs? Doubling it takes it out of the game for good and it's not currently prominent anywhere from what I've seen. Bathory talk 05:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

reckoning just wants to smiters boon a bunch of things Talamare 06:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Strange. I thought everyone including the dev team disliked the change to Smiter's Boon. I thought it was just necessary to remove it quickly and leave all attempts to fix it to be looked at later. Bathory talk 06:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Reckoning is a person who thinks booning > balancing, at least in some cases. ~Shard 06:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see the logic making this one of those cases. Bathory talk 07:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

If you double the recharge, at 14 beast mastery, you only have 30% downtime, how is that booning it? -- Tha Reckoning 09:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Mostly because it's un-necessary. It's sort of like giving flare a recharge. Yes, it makes it weaker. No, it didn't really need it. Bathory talk 09:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It's unnecessary for monks to be able to kite effectively? So, you're saying that it is okay for a ranger AND the bot following you around to have a skill that is an IAS/IMS with 100% uptime, with virtually no drawbacks? -- Tha Reckoning 09:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset) What's wrong with you? Must you paint everything like it's the end of the world? Calm down and look at this skill, and the builds people use it on. They're not immortal. Their DPS isn't bad, but there are better Ranger builds for DPS and with more annoying abilities (I point you to Burning Arrow and its barrage of interrupts). This is dependent on pets, which further limits your skill selection in PvP and' it forces them to rely on adrenaline in order to work due to this skill's Energy drain. Regular melee counters work great against these builds, energy denial destroys them (lolol Spirit Shackles). Now, you'll probably argue like you did with AotL. "I shouldn't have to prepare for fighting this skill anywhere." That's wrong. If you're seeing this a lot, you're disadvantaging yourself if you don't prepare to deal with it. Bathory talk 09:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"IAS/IMS with 100% uptime, with virtually no drawbacks?" This is becoming common among the melee classes, Primal RageOnslaught, this one can be countered by killing the pet tho, it reaches 60% dp pretty quick, and it becomes borderline impossible to maintain RaO, significantly crippling their dps for the rest of the match Talamare 09:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

@ Bathory, why do you think it's the end of the world, when someone presents a counterargument? That is the problem with having discussions on wiki, people think things are so heated. The fact that they're not immortal isn't the problem. Your recurring argument is "it has counters, it's balanced". This is wrong. You're looking at pvp like RaO rangers are the only thing in there, and you have an infinite amount of slots in your bar to bring perfect counters. This isn't a physics classroom, this is the part where you DO have to factor in wind resistance and air density, so to speak. The fact that it forces them to rely on adrenaline has no consequence whatsoever, becauce they are still extremely effective. It limits their skill selection, by making them bring skills that perfectly synergize with it, and making them more effecient than bow rangers, in many cases? Sound reasoning. Interrupts make it painfully obvious when a ranger does or does not know what he is doing. It requires skill to know what to interrupt, and when. Granted, they have enough interrupts to spam them and get lucky sometimes, but that is not a problem for skilled players. @ Talamare, those skills you listed have downsides, RaO does not. Primal Rage makes you take double damage, so you are the other team's target for it's duration. Onslaught's downside is that you have to spec a lot into wind prayers, which don't help you very much when dealing damage otherwise. Another downside of Onslaught is that you are not carrying Wounding Strike. RaO gives you AND your pet 100% uptime with NO downside whatsoever. Energy is not a problem for a person using only adrenaline attacks. -- Tha Reckoning 10:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Wind Prayers being a downside? Attacker's Insight, Chilling Victory (PvP), Featherfoot Grace(auto counters blind, weakness, cripple)...... I barely see PR as a downside since cancelling is easy... RaO has a downside, in that it needs 3 skills to make it work at all (sure you get a pet with 20-30 free dps), and "can be countered by killing the pet tho, it reaches 60% dp pretty quick, and it becomes borderline impossible to maintain RaO, significantly crippling their dps for the rest of the match" Talamare 10:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, brilliant, that is why RaO and WS are viewed as overpowered, and Onslaught is not, because all three are perfectly balanced. I agree, nobody else shares my view, it is not common knowledge that these skills are OP. (End Sarcasm) I am just the messenger, I didn't invent the idea that RaO is overpowered, it just is. -- Tha Reckoning 19:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Dont try changing the subject, Do not add WS to the conversation to make the argument illogical again! Stick with RaO and ONLY RaO, make another page(which you probably already have) to discuss WS Talamare 22:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. I'm getting tired of making the same point over and over and over to you, when obviously you are nowhere near capable of comprehension. RaO is overpowered. It is a 100% uptime IAS/IMS for you AND your pet, with NO downsides. Therefore, since Prage/Onslaught have the downsides in that you take double damage/have to spec into wind prayers and not carry WS (which is why WS is in the conversation), you cannot compare RaO to those skills, because those skills are balanced. RaO is not. The subject hasn't been changed by anyone but you, trying to compare RaO to other similar skills, that are balanced. I can't make this any clearer. Rampage As One is imbalanced. -- Tha Reckoning

WS is OP - Fact, The fact WS is OP means Onslaught sees less play, This does not mean that Onslaught is weak (also quit saying wind prayers is a downside), Prage's downside is border line saying "while you prage, you have caster armor"(I know armor ignore effects are doubled as well), and again RaO has a downside, the pet dies horribly fast, and once you kill the horribly weak pet the RaO has an insanely hard time trying to keep their pet up since by then even wanding will rekill the pet quick Talamare 23:01, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The pet dying is not a downside to RaO. The pet only has to be up for long enough for the ranger to hit RaO, which means the pet dying is not a downside at all, the ranger only needs a second to hit the skill. -- Tha Reckoning 23:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The skill costs nothing, nothing happens if you use it badly, there is no counter to it, it has no downside, it doesn't affect the build negatively in any way. Therefore, it is imbalanced. I cannot possibly make this any clearer than it already is. -- Tha Reckoning 23:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

RaO generally costs about 14 energy, and reviving the pet costs about 6... RaO build is fairly tight on energy which is why it uses zealous weapons, If you use RaO badly you run out of energy fairly quick and constantly needing to revive your pet to use RaO cripples you as you will have even more trouble with energy, also RaO puts out fairly weak spikes, they are mostly used as solid pressure because of KDs, Daze, Being able to stay on kiting targets, and extra pet dps... Also they are usually skill tight needing at least 3 skills to use RaO at all, (Prage only needs 1 cancel, Onslaught doesnt really need anything I guess, maybe a cover enchant) Talamare 23:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again, you have proven my point for me. RaO rangers use adrenaline attacks through spears to put out some pretty incredible damage, and then you have to add pet damage in. Like I said, the energy isn't a problem, because the build is fueled by adrenaline. The skill is overpowered because it makes kiting useless. The fact that you need a pet is not a downside at all. If you think "You get 100% free IAS/IMS that is unremovable, unkiteable, and you deal more damage than normal rangers, and you get an extra party member that has this bonus, and therefore deal even more damage" is a downside, you shouldn't be making suggestions at all. -- Tha Reckoning 01:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Because ranged attacks need IMS, amirite!? RaO is mainly used by axe and hammer, and occasionally scythe Talamare 02:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Again, you're pointing out things that have nothing to do with the discussion. It doesn't matter that the attacks are ranged, or that the skill is abused with other types of builds. For reasons previously discussed, the skill is imba. You have brought nothing new to the table. -- Tha Reckoning 02:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Youre right my response the last time was a bit of a troll, the thing Im trying to say tho its important to figure out exactly how a skill is a abused/op, and RaO + Spear isnt one of them since you get a stronger build by using different skills... RaO + Axe tend to only use adren attacks and spam interrupts, while RaO + Hammer (classic thumper) does actually have to manage their energy to be efficient since they need to use energy attacks Talamare 02:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

All details, my suggestion balances those as well. -- Tha Reckoning 02:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

by balance you mean, makes it unusable Talamare 03:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Not by a long shot, what exactly makes you think that? -- Tha Reckoning 03:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

IAS/IMS for 13 out of 20 seconds is crap, if you want to nerf it suggest 15 seconds recharge Talamare 03:05, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not crap, you just have to time it with a spike to maximize effectiveness, instead of using it ALL THE TIME. It promotes actual thought, not button mashing. Think about if you constantly stayed in Frenzy, all the time, instead of just when you were spiking. You'd get blown up. Well, this doesn't have a downside like double damage, so the downside needs to be recharge. -- Tha Reckoning 03:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Its total crap, there isnt enough bar space for anything, with that much down time you need to bring another movement stance, then the bar becomes - run as one, RaO, charm, comfort... 4 skills just for IAS/IMS... also RaO cant spike, they can only pressure... they dont have strength to boost there damage to make their spikes worth anything, not to mention they usually need to run 11 weapon mastery, meaning their spike is naturally weaker then warriors who usually run 13-14 mastery... the point of RaO is awesome pressure, but you want to limit it to spikes that they cant do... its total crap Talamare 03:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) It's still a great skill with a long duration, it's not total crap. Also, the RaO doesn't have to be doing all the damage, this makes it team friendly, the RaO can be the utility KDer when the spike happens, etc. You're saying it's crap because it can't solo spike, which is not true, you're just comparing it to the insane damage output that is there today, solospiking shouldn't exist. -- Tha Reckoning 03:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Didnt say solo spike, I merely said that by comparison a war spike would do 50-100 more damage then a RaO spike, and they can do it just as often, and put out nearly as much pressure as RaO... this nerf kills RaO pressure, meaning they suck at pressure and spikes... Talamare 03:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I meant a balanced spike, where someone else is doing the damage, not an abusive spike of like six of these. If you want to go down that road, warriors are useless because dervs spike for way more, etc. The skill is fine. -- Tha Reckoning 13:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

tl;dr

Onslaught is bad because it needs 13 spec to be maintainable AND HAS A 25 SECOND RECHARGE on a class that needs to be enchanted to work properly. People don't run Zealous Vow Warriors because enchantment removal fucks them for 10 or so seconds - Onslaught is the same deal, twice over.
Primal Rage has a huge drawback - if you take damage and cancel your stance, you have no IAS for up to 15 seconds. Your spikes will not go through and your pressure will be weakened significantly. Oh, and if you don't cancel it, you die. I'd say that it has pretty nice drawbacks.
Rampage as One? You press it and you enter melee godmode. All of your attacks crit and you can't be kited. Oh, and your pet gets the same buff. It can't be stripped. It can't be interrupted. The energy is manageable (you can manage it without ever touching a zealous weapon with the right att split) because all of your axe, hammer, and spear attacks are either adrenal or lolexpertise. If your pet dies, you it doesn't end. If you die, you put it up again in ten seconds. Hi, I think it's in line for a nerf. is for Raine, etc. 11:38, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks raine =D -- Tha Reckoning 19:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Primal Rage also needs a nerf. Broken skill. Dark Morphon 17:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

This skill...

Isn't as dramatically broken as you make it out to be. It requires three skill slots, virtually all your energy, and a healthy spec into a bad attribute. Quit parroting Shard's year old rants already - they mostly missed the point then, and they mostly miss the point now.--118.90.78.237 16:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm parroting shard's year old rants? Okay, let's explore the option that I might be parroting shard, even though 1. I don't know him that well, 2. I haven't been in the same guild for more than a couple of weeks and 3. I've only ever spoken to him in game one time. Shard is a very well known player that has been HAing for more than four years, and his stance on a lot of things in this game is very respected, so thanks for basically telling me that I am right. Anyway, I made this because I was tired of kiting my ass off to never get away from damn devil birds hitting somewhere between 40 and 120 even, while getting chipped away by decent DPS from a spear as well, while getting conditions as well, and the ranger NEVER HAS TO SLOW DOWN ANYTHING. And that's not even with what's going on with the rest of my team, hexes, other damage, etc. Hell, even when I use Return, the pet almost beats me to where I'm going. So, all in all, it doesn't really matter if I do decide to parrot shard at some point, he has some good ideas. Also, do your homework and read through some of my suggestions, shard opposes me on nearly all of them. -- Tha Reckoning 21:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

So you have to know, speak to, and be in the same guild as Shard to parrot him, amirite? Also, outside of this wiki where he has something of a hot-headed troll reputation, no... Shard is not well known. RaO pets will not hit for 120, even ELunge pets will just manage to scrape that barrel. This is exactly what I'm talking about - you're exaggerating the shit out of this skill's power - it is not currently an issue. That said, rant away Shard fanboy.--118.90.125.120 12:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

GJ making no points whatsoever. Free IAS/IMS with 100% uptime for two bodies is OP, end of story. -- Tha Reckoning 13:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

BSurge, EDA, Water Snares, and basically a whole plethora of hexstacks sez "HAI!". l2play and stop being bad. --Ulterion 03:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

L2play and stop being bad? It has counters (some of which are far more broken than this skill) so it is balanced? I'm stopping this discussion before it starts, by telling you to read up. If that's all you have to say, better to say nothing at all. -- Tha Reckoning 03:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

All melee is bad because "BSurge, EDA, Water Snares, and basically a whole plethora of hexstacks sai 'HAI!'". Warrior's Endurance was balanced, and prage didn't need a nerf. Wounding Strike is balanced. is for Raine, etc. 03:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, RaO does not have counters, except signet of humility/Diversion, and that's a stupid thing to waste it on. Secondly, if you think RaO isn't a problem, you obviously have no idea what kiting is and shouldn't be allowed to talk about pvp at all. It costs 3 skill slots? Aww, boo hoo. 2 of those skill slots ADD AN EXTRA PARTY MEMBER TO YOUR TEAM. ~Shard 03:50, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

If you consider a pet as an extra party member you need to play pets more. It is just a free range weapon, nothing more. It cannot decide its best target, cannot execute its own skill chains, flee AoE, move to protect a monk....shall I go on? or perhaps a minion master is haxxing the game because they can bring avg 10 extra party members lmao. there is nothing wrong with this skill. If it really needs nerfing, increase the recharge so you have a few seconds down, but reduce the energy cost by 5 at least. That should satisfy both sides, the whinny sins and the RaO "supermen" Nay the One and Only 05:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

First of all, a pet is an extra ~30 dps, it's nothing to play with. That is an extra party member, it runs around and adds dps. Minion masters USED to require corpses, but don't get me started on that. Minion masters don't belong in pvp, or in this conversation. All minions don't have perma IAS/IMS that you can't kite. Minion masters also don't have the single target DPS that RaO allows you to have. And no, the energy cost doesn't need to be lowered, because it's not a cost at all, it doesn't cost the ranger anything. They spam the skill 100% of the time, and never even get close to running out of energy, because all their attacks are adrenaline fueled. 1/10. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 08:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)