Feedback talk:User/X Pain Deliverer X/Eliminate Trolls Please

lolinternet <-troll post

Seriously though, this has nothing to do with pvp. I can tell you get griefed in RA a lot. People who leave RA matches get dishonor. Yes, the dishonor system is terrible, but at least it's punishment for deserters.

Nothing Anet does will ever get rid of trolls. You should just learn to deal with them (the big secret: IGNORE THEM!!!) ~Shard 08:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

They need to really make the ignore list much longer or infinate to correct this issue if you want to use that method. ^.^ Sithis 15:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Trolls have made MMO's what they are now. Koda Kumi 09:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey Koda, you misspelled "casual gamers." -Auron 10:00, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Casual gamers do not play MMO's. Koda Kumi 11:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Casual gamers play free MMOs. — Gares 12:38, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

There's no such thing as casual gamers. Morphy 13:08, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

umad? 1-10 98.248.90.248 10:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

hes v mad. -Auron 15:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to point out first that I'm far from a casual gamer (very noticeable if you check out how many hrs I've played guild wars "avg is 10 hrs a day/and that's active time". The second thing I'd like to point out is Trolls have made MMO's what they are today in a big way in terms of experience of a game; a pretty crappy experience. Third thing I want to point out, whether one is a casual gamer or a pro gamer or an obsessed gamer makes no difference on the fact that trolling someone is "abusive behavior" and many many get abused therefore in a game. Now question is...which is worse, getting abused by someone or someone getting away with abusing someone. I say the later is worse and also would like to point out again that's why there are so many trolls, they get away with it which they shouldn't cuz of the rules of conduct alone. Furthermore there is no excuse or justification to go around abusing someone. so again Trolls or should I say abusive behavior issue needs to be addressed. It's wrong, it's hurtful, it's against the rules. IT's ABUSIVE!!! X Pain Deliverer X 08:12, 23 July 2010 (EST)

I have a few problems with this page and your logic. Firstly, it's a video game. Chill out. Trolls only ruin a game as much as you let them ruin it. It's in your power to remove them from your groups or guilds, to simply avoid grouping with them to begin with, to use the ignore list (don't give me that bs about it being too short, put a troll on it for 15 minutes and he'll have forgotten about you already), and if all else fails, to simply deter their trolling by not paying attention to it.

My second problem is... what is your suggestion? Do you have any ideas to counter trolling, or is this just a page whining about it in general? It's one thing to sit there and say "trolling are bad" but if you can't come up with ways to stop it, don't waste ANet's time by making them read this. Of course they know trolling is bad, they knew it in 2005.

The last problem is, this is ANet we're talking about. They can't balance their game, develop an auction house, or make a remotely viable report system. What makes you think they'll have anything nearly sophisticated enough to deal with "trolling?" Any kind of trolling report system will be at least as flawed as the current one, and making actual people read the reports requires more manpower, which ANet/NCsoft cannot afford.

Yeah, it's fine to imagine a fantasyland where trolls are all on one secluded island and everyone else is left to play in peace, but over here in reality there's a huge gap to cross to get to that point. It doesn't happen magically. Any suggestions you can think of to help ANet out, I'm sure they would love to hear them. -Auron 15:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess the suggestion is too much to handle for a troll like yourself. But to state the obvious is needed I guess...that being, open your mind to what people like myself are talking about, and to hold people accountable for behaviors that aren't tolerated elsewhere. If you support abusers in an environment by not holding em accountable, you get left with abusers in an environment, so to eliminate trolls that are reported would require the STAFF to take abusive behavior seriously and to enforce "Rules of Conduct" for a change instead of acting as immature uncaring and abusive as the initial violator of conduct. X Pain Deliverer X 10:59, 23 July 2010 (EST)

[1]<- are you the OP of this QQ thread also? X ip 03:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

What suggestion? You haven't suggested anything! All you've done on this page is bitch and moan. Did you even read my post? Yes, ANet knows trolling is bad. Yes, ANet tries to take it as seriously as they can. They are underfunded and understaffed. A tiny team is trying to keep Guild Wars alive by adding new content and balancing the game. What can they reasonably do to support your complaints? Hire fifty more support people to read all of your whining and ban people because of it? Do you have any idea how expensive that would be, and in the end, how ineffective? Most anyone who has been playing this game since release has multiple accounts. I've only ever bought one, but I ended up with 5 or 6. Even if a report manages to get through, and I get reported enough times for "trolling" to earn an account ban, I can just log on another one to "troll."

These are the issues you need to think about. It's one thing to sit here and moan, like you are doing, without taking into account the financial situation ANet is in and the reality of how trolling works. It's another to understand those basic concepts and start forming suggestions to help ANet combat trolling without spending enormous amounts of cash or manpower. Right now, your suggestion is useless because it is not a suggestion. All you're doing is whining, and that is not useful to anyone, least of all ArenaNet.

Like I said in my last post which you didn't bother to read, ANet knows trolling is bad. They've known it for years. They don't know how to effectively combat trolling in ways which don't negatively impact the playerbase as a whole. Instead of sitting here and getting your argument ripped to shreds because it's half-baked (and resorting to personal attacks once you've realized your argument lies in tatters), you could be brainstorming to come up with ideas for ANet and putting them forth in a suggestion, which is, after all, the entire point of this namespace. -Auron 04:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a dishonor system, clearly. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 04:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

The dishonor system is more abusable than it is useful. All it really does is give you dishonor if you leave two RA matches. Anything it does past that might as well be random. ~Shard 04:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

And yet there are still 4 people leaving every match no matter if they win or lose Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 04:53, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Like I said in my original post, which YOU didn't bother to read, TROLLING IS ABUSIVE. ANET Shouldn't be hiring trolls even for free such as yourself Auron the GW WIKI ADMIN TROLL. ALL YOU'VE DONE SINCE MY SUGGESTION IS TROLL IT YOURSELF INSTEAD OF ADDING ANY ADDITIONAL CONSTRUCTIVE OBJECTIVELY WRITTEN STATEMENTS OR COMMENTS. NO, I am not responsible for any other such suggestions other than the ones wiki gives me credit for. Which this suggestion is suppose to be about TROLLS, this is not my other suggestion about match manipulators, which I can tell you obviously have a problem with accountability, you'd rather be friggin ignorant about issues altogether as if that is solving a problem or helping matters. No wonder there is such a trolling issue, ANET hires trolls for their own wiki so probably got plenty more trolls in their support department too. I guess you trolls and match manipulating supporters actually think being friggin lazy bout actually doing a job such as reading a report and actually taking action against a violator is actually being productive, supportive, honorable, and just full of integrity, than reading a report about a violation and taking the time to actually be half-baked and totally distorted thinking with nothing but trolling efforts and denying statements is helpful to maintaining a positive environment for both clients and staff and helpful on resolving issues. My suggestion was clear which you keep saying to make one. The suggestion is to take the trolling seriously, to be open minded bout reports of violations, and to actually enforce rules by handing consequences to those when warranted. It is you that is bitching from my perspective about holding people accountable...I guess that happens when ANET hires kids (even 21 yo who think they 40 but act more like 12). Kids don't like accountability, rule violators don't like accountability, UNsupportive staff don't like accountability...OMG you might have to ban people if they won't chill from lesser consequences for repeat violating. OMG, 1 at a time cleaning up is better than none ever. Point being things don't get better no matter the suggestion or complaint if they aren't taken seriously. But it's really pathetic to have STAFF TROLLING clients for posting suggestions...I'd like to be able to have special treatment too....G, how does one who trolls people repeatedly even manage to get admin for christ sakes. THIS IS PATHETIC, seriously WHO DO I COMPLAIN TO IN THAT WHOLE COMPANY WITH MATURITY AND BELIEVES IN DOING THEIR JOB INSTEAD COPPING OUT OF IT WITH LAZY DISTORTED THINKING AND TROLLING EFFORTS. X Pain Deliverer X 07:51, 24 July 2010 (EST)

The sysops on this wiki are not employed by ArenaNet. We are (or were, in most cases) players, just like you. We share a common goal of making this wiki the most informative Guild Wars source on the net, but we don't get paid for it, nor do our individual actions reflect the beliefs of ArenaNet.

That aside, I do have two requests. Firstly, please keep the discussion on the topic at hand and the arguments presented, as attacking other users directly is a violation of policy. This is the second time you've directed insults at me instead of attempted to debase my argument. Further attacks on my character will result in a report to the admin noticeboard, and a block or official warning will most likely follow.

Second, please read my posts in their entirety before commenting on them. I have read all of yours, even the ones in broken English and all caps, so I expect you to at least extend the same courtesy.

Now, here's the thing you've been failing to realize for the past few posts. I don't support trolling in video games. I don't condone abusive behavior in video games or in real life. I am merely pointing out that your page, as it stands, is completely useless to ArenaNet, because it is not an actual suggestion, but mere whining. All you are saying is "trolling is bad." Pardon my french, but no shit? We know this already. ArenaNet knows this already. Simply saying "trolling is bad" is useless. You are not achieving anything by whining about trolling. I actually said this like two posts ago.

If you want to achieve anything, you need to brainstorm ideas for ANet to implement that are feasible and viable, and, most importantly, that will fix the problem. The only thing you've suggested this far is one thing I've already talked about. Hiring more support staff will not work. It costs too much money and, in the end, won't actually fix the problem. Yeah, they'll get through a couple more reports per day, and maybe even succeed in banning someone, but will it make an actual difference in the game? No. It won't. One or two less trolls doesn't make enough of a difference to justify spending that much money on extra bodies.

If you can handle typing a civil response without leaning on your capslock key, I'd love to hear back from you. If all you can do is yell about the injustice inherent in the system and talk about how trolls have infiltrated ArenaNet, don't bother. -Auron 12:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

First I'd like to say I started this suggestion without attacking you; It is afterall a suggestion section and not an answer section. Suggestion sections are where people post suggestions to people on other end who are suppose to be receptive. You keep saying post suggestion when your really meaning post an answer to the suggestion i've already made.

Second, calling someone a whiner, useless, stating suggestions worthless, stating you have a problem with eliminating trolls as that is what you said, as my suggestion is to eliminate trolls, and you stated first sentence you had a problem with suggestion and my logic. Now to come onto someone's suggestion to only state over and over how you think the person is and suggestion are as you have done is not being productive, not being supportive to suggestion, only frustrating and attempting to troll. Why bother telling me how you disagree if you don't disagree, and why bother threatening to eliminate my suggestion altogether because I come back to defend myself and suggestion. You say I'm attacking you, more like you're proving every word I say to be true. You've threatened me and intimidated and trolled me enough where you're right, I'm now gonna email ncsoft my complaint with request for admin response only, will be posting all evidence of mistreatment to clients on my own hosted site, and will be having chats with other agencies who do believe in being receptive to complaints vs treating complaints as the issue. So please do me a favor and stop with all your I'll delete your posts if you don't go away or stop pointing out that we don't do what we should. Furthermore your attitude of give it up and ignore issues does not resolve issues. IT PROMOTES ISSUES. It's that attitude that you can't see you have and are doing; which is condoning the trolling in this case as that's what it's about. Any reasonable halfminded person can see ignoring an issue whether with excuses or not is condoning the issue thru distorted support of lack of addressment. So, I think you've made your point, and so please stop repeatedly reposting it and even going to level of threatening to delete my defense of your ignoring attitude of issue. X Pain Deliverer X 09:12, 24 July 2010 (EST)

Hey anet get rid of world hunger plz its bad. 69.61.210.188 13:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the proper term is "griefers" and not "trolls". As Auron said, you can ignore trolls. It is the best way to deal with them. People who use uncounterable builds, camp turtles in JQ, sync in RA do not go away when you ignore them. But as I have said before, every MMO has these kind of people. Koda Kumi 14:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

griefers is another appropriate term for those who do abuse others ingame, forums, etc. But whether the term is one or the other, the behavior itself is abusive and against rules. Griefers do exist in MMO's cuz of lack of enforcement of conduct rules as I've stated before. After years of reporting griefers in 2 NCSoft games to have not 1 single one of em consequented for their behaviors, it becomes apparent of a bigger issue, lack of accountability, hence the lack of support and lack of taking issue seriously. Of course griefers will exist if only response to em is ignoring them hence ignoring the behavior. Fact is also issues only get resolved when NOT ignored and action taken. I may not know the right combination of actions that could be implemented to help enforce conduct rules, cept for the obvious and that's to hold accountable repeat offenders that get reported. No accountability, no change for the better. So ya, it's a real kick in teeth and disheartening when you get griefed from another, report it, just to find out nothing will take place cuz of it. I guess to do something bout an issue, one must first truly care bout the issue. Me, I care about rule violators and abusers very much so. It's the abusers and negative attitudes in the world destroying it, and it's also destroying virtual worlds such as this too, but only as you've also stated, they only ruin the fun as much as you let them; which the attitude and lack of accountability is doing just that, let'n em ruin it. I'm done defending the obvious, TROLLS are abusive, TROLLS exist grossly ingame, and you guys have stated many times over the other piece, ignoring the issue. I guess nothing else needs be said bout it here now as I can't imagine what else one could say that isn't gonna be trolling, flaming, constructive, and objectively written that will house some magical combo as you refer it that'll fix the issue. I just can't help but feel that it's a matter of either being part of the solution or part of the problem, and that ignoring a problem is only supporting and aiding a problem. Anyways, I won't bother to keep reposting in the discussion as is, due to not wanting to be further ignored of complaint as much as problem itself is ignored. One thing I do know for sure, Ignoring issues doesn't help matters and isn't support. X Pain Deliverer X 1:23, 24 July 2010 (EST)

You know why people troll? For the same reason my brother used to take my stuffed animals and hide them in places too tall for me to reach...he got a rise out of watching me cry and whine. It was amusing to him. Trolling is the same way...when you react to them in this matter they enjoy it. When you post walls of text they love the dramarama it stirs. I hate to break reality to you here but people, in general, are asshats, and unfortunately momma isn't here to hold your hand when they call you names. So do what the rest of us latchkey kids do...deal with it. You know how I stopped my brother from stealing my stuffed animals? I stole his weed and flushed it down the toilet.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 05:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

In other words, she countertrolled him. You should learn to do the same. ~Shard 05:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"Get Rid of Trolls" is Not a Useful Suggestion

"Get rid of trolls by doing a, b, c, and d" can be a useful suggestion. Right now, your suggestion is basically:
"Trolls are a problem, I suggest you solve this problem by solving this problem."
No one's trolling you. Yes, you are being criticized; this is because of the content (or lack thereof) of your page. You don't have to take the criticism to heart and you don't have to improve your feedback page, but you can't expect anyone to do anything about trolling based on your suggestion as it currently stands.
Happy editing. — Raine Valen 23:12, 25 Jul 2010 (UTC)

I wonder how much money I would make if I wrote troll-detection software and licensed it to development studios. ~Shard 00:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Whatever software you make to detect peoples' intentions would probably be worth a large fortune. — Raine Valen 1:29, 26 Jul 2010 (UTC)

You can troll people unintentionally. I even know a few people who unintentionally troll themselves. ~Shard 01:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Define "trolling". — Raine Valen 4:53, 26 Jul 2010 (UTC)

Trolling is a art. -Auron 05:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

lrntrollAuron. Misery 11:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

cool story

bro --adrin 03:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

How wonderful, the Shard squad has arrived. Morphy 10:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Duh. You know, we are on vent together plotting and planning. I thought everyone knew that's how friends and or gangs worked.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 18:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

3, 2, 1, TROLL SPIKE!!! ~Shard 02:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

"Nothing ever happens to anyone when I report them"

How do you know this? It is not common practice to tell people the outcome of a report and a troll is unlikely to come back and say "You got me, I got banned and have seen the error of my ways, you win." I know for a fact that people I know have been banned for trolling, so it is not 100% ignored as you seem to indicate. You seem to want Arenanet to do more against trolling. You don't seem to be aware that they have the whole internet against them. Sure, they could hire more staff, but that costs money and doesn't actually stop the problem as already mentioned several times on this page. So, what do you actually want them to do? You say "pay attention to reports", they do. Do you want them to action more reports? That costs more money. Where should this money come from? Misery 12:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

$13.99 USD per month. :P — Gares 13:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

They should just make a simple feature for minor issues such as language issues allowing a "mute" function to silence them for a while. Since this method wouldn't have to be concidered anything drastic such as banning it can be freely used to prevent those abusing Local or Trade chat to spam non-sence constantly or talking bad to people. Sithis 15:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Food for Thought

http://www.atg.wa.gov/InternetSafety/BullyingOnline.aspx

All the responses on this page are typical responses from those who don't understand, whether they claim they do or not, and as I've already tried to talk reason and logic on the issue. For those who follow the above link, you can clearly see that it's reiterating what I'm saying. Cyberbullies are abusive and there is consequences for doing so. There's also consequences for those who don't uphold what is expected of em. Again, I may not know what it would take to "fix the problem", but I do know the answer is not expected from me, but from the company itself. Ignoring the issue, and not providing proper support on the issue, is not only wrong, but so very inappropriate and unacceptable. In terms of where the money should come from, for one, some of it comes from the purchase price invested into accounts, for two, the people who are held accountable, and decide to buy another account. It's not the victims of crimes that should pay, it's the violator of such is who should pay.

"Trolls are a problem, I suggest you solve this problem by solving this problem."
First off, Trolls are obviously a problem (minimizing statement, but true nonetheless), Second off, I didn't say the obvious of being a problem, I said hold em accountable, Third off, It's bout giving suggestions for improvement, not bout giving the answers necessarily to perform or implement the suggestion. Again, suggestion is clear, Eliminate Trolls, answer of how, well, that's what the company and company support is for. Which we as customers buying a product and service payed for.

Again, I strongly encourage reading the above link and any other sources out there on the issue that'll confirm what I'm saying clearly. Anyways, I guess that's all I can add as of right now that might help people understand a little clearer. X Pain Deliverer X 10:05, 26 July 2010 (EST)

That is a list of things that you can do and should already be doing if you're having a problem. Anet cannot help you with any of those things. If you were posting it to show that "cyberbullying is a real issue", everyone already knows that trolling is a real thing.

Again, your suggestion is "solve the problem" – how is that helpful? Do you think that they're unaware of the problem? Do you think that having someone tell them to "solve the problem" will spur them to action? Do you think they'll suddenly be inspired with a plausible solution because you've asked them to do something that they already have a department dedicated to?

Yes, "solve the problem" is technically a suggestion. It's just that it's a literally useless suggestion, and that's what people have been telling you since the top of the page. — Raine Valen 2:12, 27 Jul 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately this isn't Sesame Street, people are assholes, that's the reality. Deal with it. Not everyone likes you, that's the reality. Deal with it. People like you need to learn to face your fears and stop running to teacher with your tail between your legs every time some prick calls you a name. There are lots of ways to deal with assholes. One sure-fire way is to ignore them. Are they calling you a scrub in HA? Turn off local. They pm spam you, well, there is this awesome feature called "Ignore list". Try using them sometime. Those two items have worked fine for me when pervs pm me to cyber. Its not like they are going to come to your house and break your car windows with a baseball bat--that's a crime. That's actually serious. That is something that needs to be dealt with severely. Trolls are cake in comparison. Want Shard to shut up? Tell him too like I have. Call him a f**ggot on vent like me. People don't pull that shit on me because I either A. Stand up for myself or I B. Let it go. You need to learn to effectively do both. See, there is this wonderful idea called "Free Speech". You have the freedom to say whatever you need to say, and I have the freedom to walk away from you if its something I don't want to hear. The street goes both ways, as I wouldn't silence you. I'll argue with you, but I won't silence you.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 02:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Terrorists are also a problem. I would like to suggest the governments of the world solve that problem. We need to hold them accountable for their actions. It's a real problem, please stop ignoring it. I don't think you understand just how serious this problem is. Misery 07:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's an idea: Grow some thicker skin and stfu. msc! 98.248.90.248 09:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

"Unfortunately this isn't Sesame Street, people are assholes..." Oscar the Grouch is an asshole, technically not people, but still an ass.

"All the responses on this page are typical responses from those who don't understand..." Most that have posted, and with some very good points, are trolls to an extent. I am sure they understand and more broadly, anyone who has played an MMO knows that trolls are a pain in the ass. — Gares 13:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

He already said he doesn't have the solution. Move on people, nothing to see here. Morphy 12:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

^Only reasonable sentence on this page. -Cursed Angel 13:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Reason I made a previous suggestion of allowing an offline version of the entire game and use npcs such as the Zaishen henchman or randomized for when they "pull the plug" or when you just want to play without the hassle of constant amounts of annoying people trying to get attention, or whatever the cause it may be. Besides I think they have plenty of tools to use to create a nice balance to it since they have created some serious builds for things like the norn tournament they can through in just using what already exists. Sithis 15:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)