Guild Wars Wiki talk:Formatting/Items

Archive

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• Year 2007
• 2008 - 2012 Jun

Collector guide update needed

The Guild_Wars_Wiki:Formatting/Items#Collectors section does not provide specific procedure related to Festival Event drops, and I decided to make a small break after finding no pattern with three main pages:

• Fiery Crest, I removed the Category:Non-collector trophies tag since it is a Cantha New Year drop and it has its collector.
• Ebon Spider Leg, I added the collector to the infobox. But I have doubt because it is not a permanent NPC. This generates double listing if the note is not either incorporated to main article or edited to read different.
• Guardian Moss, has Nicholas the Traveler listed and I think it should be removed.

For now, Im reporting the issue as will follow throught the other remaining pages that need update. Can we meet for concensus? Yoshida Keiji talk 11:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Per the description on Category:Non-collector trophies, I've readded it to the pages you removed it from. (it says collectors during events do not count towards this category)

Personally I feel event collectors should not be listed in the infobox.

Nicholas has been done consistantly across the wiki, I've edited the guidelines to reflect that.File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 14:33, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

So you are telling me that from now on all items pages will automatically display in the infobox Nicholas as a collector as well as the regular permanent collector? Also I find it strange that Event Collectors are not listed and Nicholas is listed because...If my knowledge is accurate it takes much longer to Nicholas to request the same item again than what it takes yearly events to re-appear. As in for example Wintersday coming twice a year or even Halloween coming only once a year is faster than Nicholas sequence. Yoshida Keiji talk 15:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Collectors only request trophies (with one exception), always appear in the same location, are marked in missions maps, always request the same single item, and will make an infinite number of exchanges. In contrast, special event collectors only appear sometimes. Nick and Lt Thackeray are more like quest NPCs who require certain items to allow the character to complete a quest, although Nick resets his quest weekly. I would like to see Nick and Thackeray removed from the collector category rather than dilute it further by adding special event NPCs. 75.37.20.60 15:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

(Somehow i'm guessing that IP is konig) I'd forgotten collectors were listed in the infobox, perhaps nicholas shouldn't be in that bit?

I daresay if we asked tub super nicely, he might be able to produce something that scans item pages for collector names matching a list, and then puts them in the infobox automatically? :p File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 16:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

As I keep on going with page updates I will list all items that present this conflict. I just found:

• Glowing Heart, listing a Halloween npc in the infobox.
• Guardian Moss, as mentioned at beginning has Nicholas the Travel npc in the infobox.
• Hardened Hump, listing a Wintersday npc in the infobox.
• Herring, listing Keiran Thackeray & Nicholas the Traveler but not Gruhn the Fisher in the infobox.
• Ornate Grawl Necklace, listing Halloween + Wintersday NPCs in the infobox.
• Skree Wing, listing Nicholas in the infobox.
• Skull Juju, listing Nicholas in the infobox.
• Stormy Eye, listing Wintersday NPC in the infobox.
• Superb Charr Carving, listing Wintersday NPC in the infobox.
• White Mantle Emblem, listing a Halloween NPC in the infobox.

Yoshida Keiji talk 10:34, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

===Farming===
<!--Make a heading for each good area to farm for this item.-->
====[[<Area>]]====
<!--Write a description of the area or route to follow for farming for the item.-->
<!--Include a link to a map if necessary, but don't put the image on the page.-->

Has conflict when linking the Area with GWW:GENFORM overruling it. Example: Glacial_Stone&action=history Yoshida Keiji talk 11:40, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Tub has already pointed out the links in the titles are bad^. Herring is fine because the "collector" bit in the infobox is "people who want to take this item off you for something else" - not "people who give this item" File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 12:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Due to template ignorance I want to ask: Can a template "block entries"? Like telling it to make unwanted collectors look orphaned? Or simply turning their names to red as in with no link? So far there has been no opposition to remove Nicholas and Thackeray from infobox listing neither for special events NPCs.

This discussion will be used as concensus to update the formatting guideline in 3 days from now. Yoshida Keiji talk 11:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Found a related Talk:Charr_Hide#Collectors. Yoshida Keiji talk 11:31, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Salvage percentaje calculations

As you may already be awared of, I'm in the process of updating all trophy research tables. While at it I have removed the templates (made by TEF) which display a bottom line with percentaje calculations because each item's salvage data input by users will make such deductions less accurate through the course of time and also... Because the calculations are manual. Which means the last contributor has to make the maths...and so far... nobody except TEF bothered with that...what was causing more inaccuracy. Unless the percentaje are automatically calculated by a templete (if that is possible as MS Excel), I suggest halting this practice. Yoshida Keiji talk 11:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Don't see a problem with that. The people adding to these research tables may not be wiki-savvy enough to deal with the table formatting, and I would say that most people wouldn't better to update calculations. -- ab.er.rant 16:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Article is not yet consistent

The problem is, rules and suggestions here are not clearly grouped and properly placed, most of rules are inserted inside the text boxes which normally should be examples of usage. As a result, need to attentively read the rules inside the examples and/or the commented lines in the text boxes as well as some rules written normally outside of boxes. Not a best form of presentation, I think. For example, farming formatting does exist only inside the example, but not as a set of separate rules. Only Item infobox template section is formatted quite consistently.

The examples and rules inside the text boxes should assist a user who wants to place an info on the item-related page by copying the example and replacing some text. But the rules should firstly exist somewhere outside the examples and independently to them, while examples should serve as illustrations of the declared rules; some unavoidable repetitions isn't a disadvantage. --Slavic 16:54, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I have just brought an archive to the main talk page, where we re-open the case for improvement just below of this topic. I would like to ask that you use more "wiki" terms because your message is not clear (at least for me), and unfortunatly cannot understand anything. Yoshida Keiji talk 10:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Excuse that I haven't checked the terms and might have explained some points not as clear as it should be. But this is a discussion and points can be improved. Yes, it was started because of that case with moving a farming picture in and out, mainly my fault, but the inconsistent policy too. --Slavic 20:58, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Farming locations

I posted this on Talk:Trophy#Farming_for_trophies and BeXoR suggested I ask here instead. I have started work on the GuildWiki in adding information about farming for trophies and wondered whether there'd be room for something similar over here. So far I have done Plague Idols and Mantis Pincers. I realise this site is still very much in its infancy and deciding where/how to best implement this would be hard without some practical examples, so would anybody like to suggest a good mature trophy article to try this on (in userspace)? Cheers. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Eerie Moss .

I don't really mind having that sort of content. I just want to nitpick on the map. The way the map stretches the page downwards and causing empty space is inelegant and ugly. Personally, I'd rather just have a list of farming locations, so as to prevent the setting of a precedent where suddenly, there could be several thumbnails stretching the page downwards on one side. A gallery or something could work I suppose. -- ab.er.rant 23:24, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Agreed on the map hideously poking down into empty space bit, but I'm not sure how else to do it (I'm, er, new. ;). Perhaps a text link to the map? How's this? Eerie Moss 07:42, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

I love that info! And I also think that way is a nice way to put it. No big map stretching the page, but the map is easy to find :) - anja (contribs) 08:20, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

I can't believe I did that, feel like such a noob. >.< Thanks for the move Bex! Eerie Moss 10:36, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

NP, I've done it before too. ;) - BeX 11:19, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

If there are no objections I'd like to incorporate this into the formatting guide so I can start doing it to actual pages. First though, which layout is better, with Farming as a subsection of Acquisition or with Farming as a section on its own? Eerie Moss 09:26, 18 May 2007 (EDT)

I'd like to see it as a subsection of acquisition. - BeX 22:01, 18 May 2007 (EDT)

Agree to see it as a subsection of acquisition. I don't know wether it could be usefull to set a naming schema for the farming maps. - MSorglos 02:19, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

I would suggest Image:<Trophy name> farming map.jpg - BeX 03:46, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

There could be cases where "this is the best place, but if you're not up to there yet, here's good too", so I would like to include the name of the area in the image name. Image:<trophy> <area> farming map.jpg ?

Good idea. :) - BeX 04:22, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

Added. I'd appreciate if you guys could look over it as I've never edited anything official before. :P Eerie Moss 05:22, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

Okay, I screwed that up royally, sorry for all the edits. I reverted to last good and did them again, carefully. What did my head in, and I think is still laid out very confusingly, is the drop rate tables. Logically they should be under Acquisition, but since that's where I wanted to put Farming, I had to either put Farming below Drop Research, which makes it look like it's a subsection of Drop Research, or put it above Drop Research, which breaks the flow of the page. I did the former, but as you'll see it's very confusing, so I look forward to hearing other ideas. Sorry again for all the edits. Eerie Moss 05:45, 19 May 2007 (EDT)

I... can't see actually. Where exactly did you do all your edits? And drop rate tables are on talk pages, so how does that interrupt your farming section? Your farming section is a level 3 header under "Acquisition". Any drop data that will get added can simply be another level 3 header either above or below your farming details. -- ab.er.rant 21:21, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

Ah, I see them now. On the guidelines. Anyway, I can't tell what's wrong. "Drop research" is a level 2 header. Your farming is a level 3 header that should be located inside "Acquisition". From what I'm thinking, "Drop research" should also be a level 3 header under "Acquisition". -- ab.er.rant 21:28, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

You want drop research in the main article? o_O - BeX 01:28, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Isn't that what's on the... *goes to re-read the formatting article* ... oh... misread. In that case, I propose we move the drop research section out of "Syntax and Example" and into a separate section. -- ab.er.rant 02:12, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Trophy farming: Re-opening after 5 years

I have just gone through Eerie Moss contributions and found activity in 5 trophies being: Plague Idol, Putrid Cyst, Margonite Mask, Minotaur Horn and Spider Leg.

Personaly, I edited: Massive Jawbone, Naga Pelt, Skree Wing, (used another's reseach for Chunk of Drake Flesh), Fetid Carapace and Alpine Seed.

Regarding image (maps) file naming, I have chosen:

• "Trophy" solo Farming.jpg

When found that an item could be hard to get by single players AND the same item can also have other areas with better drop rate.

• "Trophy" Farming (explorable area).jpg

When found that an item can have several other areas with better drop rates.

• "Trophy" Farming.jpg

When found a clear spot with no other alternative location suggestions in talk pages.

Forming a concensus with naming can help reduce maintenance "moving" to bookkeepers.

Another matter of interest is: Map display.

I would like the map being displayed in the main page (since I was starting, I just simply chose to follow guideline), and I think Slavic and Eerie Moss share the same opinion. However, Aberrant and ANJA not. The reason being that "if" the file size is too large, it would extend the main page to long. So my suggestion is add a map as a THUMB.

Now another concern by Slavic is procedure.

Clearly, there is no guideline for that. But to me it was relatively easy because im active in Guild Wars Wiki:Projects/Mission articles and after each of my overhaulings either User:Chieftain Alex, User:Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) or User:Silver Edge would come right behind me to fix my screw-ups in the process. So I can say im kinda used to write guides. I also overhauled The Deep (Luxon's elite mission). Since the release of GW2 is close and Im not sure if I will complete Missions Project before its launch... Im preparing a last notes to future contributors (if any) at: User:Yoshida_Keiji/Sandbox#Project:_Missions_notes to include in the projects talk page. This list summaries all my mistakes and how I should had proceed instead, with the goal of avoiding failing again with same errors if humanly possible.

Other than that it's all free style for each wiki-er as long as their edits comply with the Formatting Guidelines...lucky thing for us is that the guideline itself can be changed or updated with proper discussion, forming a formal concensus and then proceed with the changes. Whatever we talk here from now can have effect so that it suits the way we want wiki to look like. Every single thoughts and ideas anyone has, this is the place to share them. Yoshida Keiji talk 11:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

About pictures or links: for me, a text link is not a good idea. The articles are often overfilled with links, and readers skip most of them. Experienced readers skip the links so automatically that may even don't notice them; as a result, most important or interesting links have an additional or extended description, like you can read this important policy here. Pictures should be represented as pictures, drawing an immediate attention by themselves. I think that thumbnail for a single picture and standard gallery for 2 or more would be a very good solution. --Slavic 21:22, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what it is you are suggesting we change. I don't think most of the drop rate data is rigorous enough to use to draw conclusions. During Nick request farming, a dozen people from my guild might be going after the same trophy and will be reporting different experiences. Quizzing them briefly, you can discover that they are not doing the same things, so it can be hard to tell from anecdotal evidence who is unlucky or who brought too many heroes (or allowed NPCs to kill foes).

Regarding map sizes for farming: I don't see a need to have them show up on an article about the trophy as anything much bigger than 100-200px. People can click the image to see the full version. (In a full-page article on farming, bigger images would make sense). I also strongly dislike the use of a text link instead of including the image on the page directly; we should generally reserve text links for articles.

Finally, I don't see any reason to name the images after the style of farming. A solo route can be used by 7H teams and vice-versa. So I would just stick with Trophy farming route [n], where [n] starts at 1; it's going to be rare that we have more than 2-3 images. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 05:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

You got here right in time, I was about to start revisioning Farming sections of all item pages since two days ago but got busy. I still feel a bit green to make changes since I overlooked only 11 articles so far which is very little. Before I started writing guides for Nicholas, I found that the existing ones were not complying with the formatting guidelines and nobody else noticed before me. My next move is to go through all item pages (again for the 4th round) but to exclusively re-work the main page with existing talk page comments e.g.: as I did for Chunk of Drake Flesh. Which is something I left to a side while performing the 3rd round which was only to update tables mostly. Some other's inputs have missing details for me to write down a complete guide, either: Geographical guidance (outpost/landmarks), directions, overviews, description, walkthrough difficulties, suggestions to overcome them, map, etc ([1]). I need a bit more experience so as to get used to and then make a "formal" formatting guideline for those willing to contribute but have no references to follow (which is going to be like Project: Mission but shortened). I recall 3 pages that had minor conflict since I started not long ago:

• The most notorius is map display which as of now is not accepted in the guideline ([2], [3]).
• Understanding what is a guide ([4], [5], [6], [7]). No reference as to guide content exists yet (what to write and what to not remove).

Answering your questions, Alpine Seed was my first and rusty revision. And yes, the drop rate cannot tell which is the "best" method, but any known strategy is better than non. And if there is more than one alternative, it's not like we would only list the most efficient. In my opinion, there could be several variants and I have no problem with that.

The first thing that needs mentioning is that solo farming in areas with low level foes has better results and in other areas with foes of level 20, usually a spirit spammer can handle alone. Which is the basics of basics, but I am aware that a lot of players still attempt to farm with full teams. The two ways I mention should (imo) be stardart for single player guides. And whenever a solo rit cannot handle, its team guide. Also, I'm against any Shadow Form exclusive method guide which will not help the majority nor may guarantee any efficiency.

And I agree with the last two aspects, change links for small size image and naming convention is easier with the "n".

Yoshida Keiji talk 08:40, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Made a general overlook at the 12 items involved by:

= (spirit spammer) Noob = any lvl 20 solo can handle, easier than SoS.

1. Explorable Area + Starting outpost/town
2. Solo/Team, General Information
3. Where in there?
4. What's there?
5. What can fail a run?
6. How to farm safe and fast?
7. Map if needed.
8. Extras e.g.: benefit from quest spawns, treasure chest.

First Check List includes items of my doing, while the second table are item pages worked by others.

Trophy	1.Location	2.Overview desc	3.Directions	4.Walkthrough	5.Difficulties	6.Strategy suggests	7.map	8.extras
Massive Jawbone						no need		none
Naga Pelt		Noob					no need	none
Skree Wing			everywhere					Quest/Chest
Chunk of Drake Flesh					none	none		none
Fetid Carapace		Noob			none	none	no need	none
Alpine Seed		Team	no need		none	none		none
Shiverpeak Mane		Noob	everywhere		none	none	no need	none

Trophy	1.Location	2.Overview desc	3.Directions	4.Walkthrough	5.Difficulties	6.Strategy suggests	7.map	8.extras
Plague Idol				none	none	none	short / long	none
Putrid Cyst
Margonite Mask			no need			no need	no need	no need
Minotaur Horn					none	none		none
Spider Leg					none	none		Hunter's Ale

Conclusions (12 items)

• All indicate area and start point.
• My own writings have set-up team/sos/noob. Other users didn't specify.
• Directions: Sometimes not needed because foes are everywhere or because the map shows the directions already. But of course one of the two must be included.
• Walkthrough is needed, a must. Plague Idol needs some input it's too vague.
• Difficulty and Strategy depend on whether there is any. But then...how do I know if other users were just doing lazy/lame edit or actually there is none to mention?
• Maps: If foes are everywhere there is no need. But neither cannot force contributors to upload one.
• Extras: Is optional.

After these observations, I suggest the use of Hidden Text beneath the Farming Section (like used for Guilds templates). This should help contributors as a reference:

<!--DO NOT REMOVE THIS. Guidance: Include Area and start point. Party: solo/SoS/team. Directions: 
everywhere/specific cardinal area (N·S·E·W)/if too hard to tell upload a map. Describe a Walkthrough. Any
 difficulties? If yes, how to overcome?  If no, say none. Map: If uploading naming is [[Trophy]] Farming (1), (2) or
 (3); (pick the smaller unused number). Extras is optional like: quests that increase spawns, treasure chest nearby
 or anything that benefits while farming. DO NOT REMOVE THIS. -->

Yoshida Keiji talk 04:51, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I see no objections after leaving quite some time for other contributors to give their own opinions. I will be performing three changes (when I come back from work) to the current Formatting Guideline:

• Farming Map naming (e.g.:Jungle Troll Tusk (1).jpg)
• Display of small sized map instead of link.
• Hidden Text.

Around 12hs or a bit more (got a date too tonight) and will start updating the present day syntax. Yoshida Keiji talk 21:37, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry I didn't respond; I wasn't actually sure what you had proposed.

Short story: change the maps as you propose (with one small exception), but I think the hidden text is a waste of your time. (Details below.)

• Farming map naming: I don't see any reason to use "(1)" unless there are multiple maps already. (I know it looks like I suggested above starting at [1], but I meant if there were 2+ maps; usually, there's only one route per farm.)
  • Trophy farming route [location] might be better, since then it won't matter if e.g. (2) gets removed for some reason.
• Maps: 100px or 200px is probably fine.
• I don't see a reason for the hidden text — that information makes more sense in a guideline. Based on my experience doing this at GuildWiki for the first 18 months or so of Nick requests, I don't think most contributors will read it...so it's a lot of extra work to post the hidden text with barely any benefit to the wiki.

You can see an example of how Gwiki did this in the past by looking at this example; look further back in the history to see how rarely the guidelines were followed, even by frequent contributors to the page.

In regards to the other ideas you raise:

• Starting location and zone are important.
• I think it's a mistake to be specific about farming builds, except to note specific dangers (e.g. cannot 55 or dangerous to spirit spamming).
• Some directions are required beyond "exit the outpost, follow the route" — not everyone is good at reading maps (it needn't be more than "exit outpost, turn left and circle around").
• Walkthroughs are not needed unless there's something complicated about the specific farm (hardly ever true).
• Difficulty should not be mentioned — that's user dependent. (Some people think ecto-farms are easy, some do not.)
• Strategy is similar to walkthrough — shouldn't be mentioned unless there's something very specific to note.
• Maps: there should always be one. If there's no specific route, then the map can be a redirect to an existing map.
• Extra: I am not sure what that means.

Thanks for taking the time to overhaul this; it's been a long-neglected topic on GWW (in fact, it's one of the main reasons I started the "Guide to Item of the Week Farming" at GWiki, since there didn't seem to be much appetite for it here). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:11, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The Formatting Guideline has been updated. Yoshida Keiji talk 15:29, 12 July 2012 (UTC)