Guild Wars Wiki talk:Projects/NPC models

Bosses - aura-less renders vs. a good screenshot?

Hello, I've noticed this matter was (kinda) discussed before but I wanted to raise this again to ask specifically if there's a clear agreement on the matter of plain renders vs. a good screen shot on boss's page? Personally, I find it disappointing when I open a boss page and get greeted by a generic render (and tbh, it makes the wiki a bit more boring). Now I noticed at least one user said he misses the auras while 2 other people said they'd prefer plain renders with no screenshot but I'm bringing this up in order to hear a wider range of opinions, if there's a majority for renders I'll go away ;). Just to clarify, I'm not against putting up a plain render as an alternative to a bad ss, but if we have a high-res, clean screenshot I really don't think an aura-less render should take it's place. Nate 23:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with the end of the last discussion about this: I definitely prefer renders if available, even if they are missing the aura. poke | talk 23:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I guessed as much Poke, you're actually the reason I brought this up ;-). Another reason btw, is that from my observations there are a LOT of boss pages that don't follow this line and use a screenshot over an available (but auraless) render...if this ends up the majority opinion we should clean them up (though I still think it'd be a loss to the wiki).Nate 23:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I know that it was me who brought this up, that's why I thought I should answer even if I don't work in this project ^^ The reason that I only fixed your uploads is simply because I went through the recent uploads earlier (Today I had a wiki-cleanup-day :P) and noticed that you removed the render.

Well, I'll put this section on RfC so that also other people (not related with this project) will notice. poke | talk 23:25, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I love the renders in normal monster articles, but I believe the image in boss articles should actually show the boss, not a generic image for the species and profession of the boss. I'd prefer a good screenshot, if it is indeed a good one. — Why 00:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The ideal, of course, would be a render which includes the boss aura (Image:Naga necromancer boss.jpg for example), but given Emily's limited time to devote to this, each boss render, usually used by one or maybe two NPCs, means one less non-boss render, generally used by a larger number of NPCs. So the question is whether to sacrifice the context of the boss aura (non-boss render), or sacrifice the image quality of a render (screenshot). Considering the sacrifice of the boss aura is fixed and small, while the sacrifice of quality is largely subjective and can be anywhere from minimal to huge, I'd prefer to stick to the former where possible. So I would say plain render. - Tanetris 01:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this on the rfc Poke. Tanetris - you may consider discarding the auras a small sacrifice but I really can't say I agree...I'd take an 'ok' image (any pic that follows the basic formatting guidelines) over a generic render any day. Anyway, why not keep the good screenshots, while using renders on those pages where the screenshot quality is low? That way we can keep quality as high as possible without totally discarding the auras.

I've also invested some time learning how to get renders out of the game to see if I can render the bosses with auras myself...it turns out I can't (but now I can render normal monsters, yay!). Nate 18:17, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Why don't we just do both? I've always felt that it was quite a loss when really good screenshots get deleted in favor of generic renders. -- ab.er.rant 03:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Renders that include external effects are a very low prioirity. Various auras are only one possibility of what could be added. Given that there are so many models we don't have a render of, that comes first. But as aberrant says, you could very well have a screen shot in the article without getting rid of the model render. It doesn't have to be either or. Backsword 14:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Although I feel that a render with an aura would be ideal, IMO a screenshot with an aura is more useful for quick boss identification than a render without an aura. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 02:49, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok then, took me a while but I'm back. I'll be favoring good screenshots over generic renders from now on (please don't delete mah pics poke...;) ). Alternatively, would anyone with wiki-skillz care to show me how to make a page that allows the display of both the render and a screenshot within the template? That should keep everybody happy. Nate 15:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Just to add my voice, I'd also like bosses to use a unique picture, or least have the render and the unique picture on their pages. Manifold 23:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Just my two cents....

I really dislike this project and what it's doing to the wiki. Renders are horribly sterile and eliminate all sense of context within the game. Also, it truly diminishes the "community" spirit of the wiki to have all the user contributed images replaced with ArenaNet generated renders. -- Wyn 03:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

This somewhat relates to the conversation above, but I'm fine with this project in terms of regular NPC's. However, I think, strictly speaking, the bosses should be left as in-game screenshots. It provides more of an in-game feel to what they look like instead of just a generic render of a common enemy. -- Wandering Traveler 04:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Miniatures & Forms Renders?

Are there renders for mini-pets and tonic forms? Can't find those – Barinthus 15:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the Black Moa Chick, minipets use the same model as their non-miniature versions, just scaled down, and similarly tonic forms use the model from whatever the form is. So if you want a render for the Mini Asura or for Asure Form, look under Asura models. - Tanetris 15:24, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok but what about forms such as the Elf? There's no full-sized render for the elf, only the mini one. – Barinthus 15:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

A larger version is used for Yuletide Tonic's Avatar of Holiday Cheer form. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

That's a screenshot, not a render. Unless I'm missing something. – Barinthus 06:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I misread your post and thought you meant that the full-sized elf model wasn't being used for anything. I don't think we have an elf render of any size, I didn't see any in the Miniature Elf or Avatar of Holiday Cheer page. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Elf is under Events, though as Gordon said it is not currently rendered. - Tanetris 09:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I just added that entry. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 10:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh. So you did. Logical place for it though! Good on ya, Gordon. ;) - Tanetris 16:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeh I typically add renders to the minature pages when they come, there have been quite a lot of additions in the last week whilst Emily has been uploading again. --Lemming 20:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Tagging replaced screenshots for deletion

I have noticed that recently several screenshot images have been replaced with renders. I would like to remind people who are doing that to please tag the replaced screenshots with {{delete}} so they will not just bloat the Orphan file list. Thanks! -- Wyn talk 22:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Helping

I noticed that many of the images on the wiki are official renders provided by anet. There are still a lot of screenshots up though, I can provide a few NPC images with the backgrounds removed. The wouldn't be renders, but they might be the next best thing until the official renders are provided. Just thought it might be helpful. -- Phnzdvn 15:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Everyone is welcome to help. Removing backgrounds is ok, I do it that way also. Just don't check it as "rendered", cuz it's not "officially rendered". -- Magamdy 07:50, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Awesome! Thne I will start helping. -- Phnzdvn 17:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) sorry for not uploading a lot of stuff lately, I have the flu so I am sleepin' a lot :P. -- Phnzdvn 15:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Renders

Who is doing them now after Emily is gone? Rose Of Kali 20:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

No one really. Note that we have had a few users contribute them too,, but none of them are really active anymore. Corespondingly, this project is more or less in a coma. Backsword 06:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(2 years later...) Can somebody render Lyssa's Muse? Yoshida Keiji (talk) 09:38, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Moving forward

I had some time to think about this project the other day as I was deleting masses of mostly terrible pictures (many of which's replacements weren't much better). Since Emily's no longer with us to provide actual renders (note: a screenshot with a white background is not a render. They are what I will refer to as fakerenders. If you do not have Anet's internal tools, you're not rendering, thus the product is not a render. That doesn't make fakerenders inherently bad, but let's not misuse terminology), I think we should actually lay out some consistent guidelines to give this project an actual direction. For one thing, it'd be good if people who actually make fakerenders could start a subsection and outline their processes, so perhaps methods could be combined and improved, and perhaps more people could assist. Group effort: it's what wikis are about.

Now, some points on what a fakerender should actually be. Bear in mind that all of this is my personal opinion and is open for debate:

• Obviously all points from Guild Wars Wiki:Formatting/Images apply, such as neutral lighting, facing the light source, no targeting rings, best textures, etc. Everyone knows this, I put it here only for completeness.
• Shadows: Never. Not ever. None.
• Boss auras for bosses, no boss auras for non-bosses. Simple enough.
• No visible enchantment auras, condition effects, etc.
• Weapons:
  • If the NPC carries no weapon: no weapon only.
  • If the NPC carries one particular specific weapon/set: either that specific weapon/set, or no weapon.
  • Otherwise: any weapon/set of the type(s) that NPC can carry, or no weapon.
  • So, for example, Stone Summit Pounders and Stone Summit Cleavers shouldn't be using the same fakerender (unless someone comes up with a no weapon one).
• Posing should be as neutral as possible, such as from non-hostile NPCs or tonic forms. Bear in mind quests/missions where foes start off green before they turn hostile. If you can make the effect from it go away, consider Pacifism and Amity. A shot of an enemy mid-swing or mid-charge may make for a more dynamic picture, but doesn't show the model as well.

Related to the last point, though not strictly related to the project, I think it's important that articles be allowed (but not required) to have an additional screenshot of the particular NPC, if and only if the screenshot is high-quality and illustrates something important about putting the NPC into context. The render/fakerender would still be the primary image in the infobox, and such screenshots wouldn't belong on all or even the majority of NPC articles, but should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

The last thing I'd like to bring up is Konig's recent screenshot-consolidation spree (for anyone who doesn't know: for models that aren't currently rendered/fakerendered, he's going through the various screenshots, putting what he considers the best one on all the articles that use the model, and tagging the rest for deletion). While I neither agree nor disagree with the goal itself, I would like to both open the discussion for commentary on whether that's something that's desired, and offer some points on how it should be done if so. For one thing, I'd point out that a 'best' screenshot in this case should balance showing the model with as neutral a background context as possible (e.g. a nondescript cave wall is better than the Dreadspawn Maw hanging out in the background). The other thing I would recommend is moving whichever screenshot is used to the generic name the fakerender would go under and linking the various articles there, so that a fakerender can be uploaded straight over it, rather than having to change all the links again. Also, fairly obviously, the same point on weapons for fakerenders should apply.

That's all I can think of for the moment. Question/comments/objections/additional points? Or do people just generally not really care about this project anymore? - Tanetris 18:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

First of all, on the points of a fakerender: I agree with the above, but would like to add something for bosses - in the case of a unique modeled boss (e.g., Dagnar Stonepate from Prophecies or the eight "<profession> Construct"s from Factions), I'd prefer to see both renders with and without auras - from what I can find, most renderers (now an endangered species on this wiki) do not know how to "properly" (fake)render the boss aura without conflicting with the standards of a good quality image, so a non-aura version would be easier to get; also the auras do reduce the quality of the model's texture (or rather, makes some of the texture hard to see) thus reduces the value of how we can witness the boss's true model.

Secondly, regarding the moving of shared screenshots to a generic name - I was, humorously enough, intending to do such at a later date. I wanted to focus on one step at a time.

I do think people care about the project, it's just that those who know how to render have moved on. And those who haven't have other things that are more important/distracting. One of the main reasons why I've been scooping around on how to grab renders (real or fake - wouldn't 3D Ripper DX, Magamdy's method, be "real" renders since it takes a render out of an instance of the game rather than being an altered screenshot? And on a similar note, I wonder if we could get Stephane to grab some renders for us, since he went and got hi-def maps for the interactive map group from what I heard...). Konig/talk 23:07, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

(turned out poke had the maps, and somehow we never got beyond that point for interactive maps ...) Some renders like Shiro'ken assassin are nigh impossible to render - we might never end up with proper renders for complex models. I did wonder if we should remove most of the users from the project contributors list that are inactive. File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 23:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Technically speaking you can manipulate the client to show you pretty much any model in the DAT with the right methods. That includes modifying/removing auras. Perhaps the resulting image is not as high in quality as “official renders,” but they aren't bad either. Take Dagnar Stoneplate for example or Corporal Bane. MadMaxx 03:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm that's a pretty cool technique MadMaxx, but the images are of really bad quality, so I would rather have photoshop renders than that :\. I think we should concentrate on getting the renders themselves, like Konig said, instead of changing filenames. Maybe I can write a tutorial about how I render so that more people can be attracted to the prject and it can be revived again. But also, like Alex said, my method isn't able to render all models because of a combination between the complexity of certain models, my lack of skill with 3DS Max and the instability of 3d Ripper DX. But it would certainly help the project get on it's way again. -- Magamdy 11:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Who still has GW Cam Unlocker?

I want to use it to help me with capturing scenes in 3D ripper DX. Magamdy 13:42, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Take a look to see who was uploading the videos before, and check if they're active over on the GW2 wiki. I'm not sure how many people will be keeping an eye on this talk page. G R E E N E R 15:26, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Already found it, too bad it doesn't help me. Was worth a try though. Magamdy 15:57, 1 October 2015 (UTC)