Talk:Waste Not, Want Not

Skill Tweaks 07/26/07

• Waste not Want not: 20r 1..16e -> 15r 8..13e
• Please discuss skill change here. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll start off.

The tweak to recharge time and to the energy range are nice though 8...13e isnt enouth considering most mesmers play with 11 inspiration, the net gain for them is 6 energy.

I guess what A.Net's wish for this skill was it to become a sort of energy managment for some sort of MoR + Wastrel's Worry/Demise + Overload + Price of Pride spamm build.

Even with MoR this skill is meerly an extra pip of energy regen. This skill still lacks utility. :( Miss Velvetine 00:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

It would just be cool if it actually had some versatility. I've seen people say you have to really suck to miss with this....but if that's the case why not give it some utility for when the target is performing an action? For a skill that only does e-management it does not look too appealing. Sorry. :( --Redfeather 01:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm crazy, but I can see myself missing all the time- because the skill doesn't work if they're attacking. I use a clumsiness build (with inspiration for energy management), and you can kill someone in PvE pretty darn quickly just by them attacking constantly. The target would almost have to be knocked down in PvE to actually get some energy. Idk, I just don't ever see myself using this skill effectively. --- Catraine (edit August 04).

A PURE energy management skill, doing nothing else, needs to actually give enough energy to be interesting. Even if you spec fairly high, this doesn't give you something comparable to GoLE. Either you'd need higher energy gained, or you give it some sort of utility. Having another effect if you 'interrupt' could actually make it much more interesting. Even if it's just that : an interrupt. This way you could decide to either use this to interrupt a key skill when your energy is good, or throw it away to gain energy when you lack some. It would give some very interesting versatility to the skill, and it would never be 'wasted'. Patccmoi 01:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

That interrupt thing is a good one too. I think an interrupt if they are casting a spell makes it unique and worth considering in builds.--Redfeather 02:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Ya, any kind of versatility would help. Izzy said himself on the discussion page that an energy skill with no other benefit is hard to justify, so the obvious solution is: don't make one! And it would be funny to see people that are kinda bad trying to use it for emanagement and being 'damn, i interrupted the guy again!' ^^ Patccmoi 03:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

lol. Patccmoi, Here would be the perfect name for that skill! "Put up, or Shut up"[1]. lmao --Redfeather 03:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC) --Redfeather 03:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Tie a bonus to Fast Casting! Pretty please!--Skye Marin 03:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Bonus to FC could do the job too. Would make a less interesting skill, but at least a solid emanagement option for Mesmers. Patccmoi 07:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

As mentionned above, i'm afraid the net energy gain is too low to see this skill some use.I'm not really sure to understand what Anet want this skill to be, is it decidated to non-primary mesmers ? that's what i think since the energy bonus starts at 8 but anyway a rate of 0,4/s won't see lots of play imo (however it's nicer with MoR : 0,8/s even if Power Drain is far better under MoR) . Actually i can see a little window of opportunity to use this spell, it's 15 reload and compared to the other high reload energy management spells in Inspiration (30s or 25sec) it could see some use for non-primary mesmer and those not using MoR however it doesn't benefit from any additional effect as stated Redfeather and therefore i think you should increase the net energy gain up to 8-10. Still start at 8 but get it higher than 13 maybe up to 17 or if you want to give a "bonus" for primary mesmers remain the initial scaling unchanged but add bonus from the invest in fast casting oO.I'm just throwing ideas everywhere cause i can't really get the aim of this skill 88.122.33.120 07:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

(reset)Perhaps what this skill needs is an energy penalty if the foe is using a skill, and a higher return if they aren't. 08:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The decrease reload time would have been very good if the energy gain would have stayed the same. But with the energy gain decreases too this skill still lacks interest compared to other energy management option. (Trouveur 08:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

I'll just add that these changes on scaling and reload do exactly the same thing than before, which is approximatively 0,53/s instead 0,55/s net energy gain with 15 Inspiration so i don't see the point in those modifications, expect if you want to run this along with MoR 88.122.33.120 09:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

An energy penalty or a self skill disabling penalty with a higher energy return can be much better. Penalties have a potential to prevent non-mesmer abuse as well.

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I like the skill as it is because it is as close to unconditional energy gain as you can get as a Mesmer with a non-elite. There are practically no strings attached except use your brain when in spell range of an enemy. I don't want it to have another function because it'll likely hurt the dependable energy-per-second (EPS) rate it now has.

The closest, consistent non-elite energy gain option to WN,WN that the Mesmer has right now is Energy Tap. Everything else needs to be setup properly or your energy-per-second rate over time goes down, sometimes drastically.

Drain Enchantment? You have to have a foe with an enchant in range which is not a guarantee. Plus the EPS for the current WN,WN is more than double DE even when it is working consistently. Auspicious Incantation doesn't work well with 5E spells and you need to deal with added recharge. GoLE requires no investment points (which always keeps it a viable choice), and the EPS rate is the same as a L11 Insp. However GoLE can be often wasted if one of your two spells that you need to cast at a given time is only 5E. IHex, IEnchant, Channeling, LSig, are all +energy skills that have a lower EPS than the new WN,WN because they have special conditions to them (Channeling is great with a lot of enemies around however). Even PDrain, which nets more EPS in theory is subject to a lot of things that cause your EPS to go down (no casters around, you miss, etc.)

Only ETap is straight forward, no-nonesense energy gain for a non elite. Unlike GoLE, you can freely use it in a build with many 5E spells and get maximum return. Compared to WN,WN the ET has two disadvantages... ETap is a slow, slow cast, and the EPS is much lower. At L11 Insp, ET has an EPS of .28 and that goes up to .36 at L13. WN,WN has an EPS of .47 for both Insp. levels (which is GoLE's rate only when used on 10E spells or greater). So for me, I hope WN,WN at minimum stays exactly as it is so I can always have access to a non-elite, fast casting, unconditional +energy skill with a good EPS rate. arredondo 15:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Drain Enchant is used to remove enchants rather than for energy management. The problem with Wn,Wn is that is only aim by now is energy management and it isn't really good at it (it has a poor eps rate that's why for energy issues ppl will use GoLE instead of this). Besides Auspicious add recharge is very low and this skill is only used by Illusion mesmers with Conjure Nightmare or Panic Mesmers and it fits really good in those builds (it is dedicated to those builds imo). Imo GoLE, used correctly, is much more usefull than Wn,Wn if it stays like it is now you're likely to use it with Diversion or Energu burn whatever pretty easily. Well that's my point of view, this skill currently only suffers from lack of energy gain and can be bypassed by many other e-management skills (therefore it sees little use)88.122.33.120 16:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

You may have missed it but I showed that WN,WN's EPS at L11 Insp. is the same as GoLE, and higher than that at L14 Insp. Of course GoLE needs no attribute points which keeps it as a great chice, but that forces you to go as an Ele for secondary and your EPS goes down if you ever have to use a 5E spell as one of the two discounts you are given. Plus, WN,WN can always be used the instant it recharges if in enemy spell range for max EPS. GoLE is only giving you energy help if you are ready to cast two spells within the 15s after it recharges or your EPS goes down (you don't always want to cast a two 10E+ spells each time it recharges). What I am trying to say is that WN,WN can be better than GoLE for general use as an energy managment skill.

That's why I mentioned Drain Enchant and the others because they are less efficient in providing energy for generic builds (as non-elites) than WN,WN. Right now, this is the best general purpose, non-elite +energy skill for the Mesmer who just wants energy from the slot. It does only one thing, but it does it better than almost all other choices for most builds. If it is pumped up too much, we're back to having Monks use it more than anything, and I do not want to be forced to have Fast Cast points to protect it from that. arredondo 16:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I still need to maybe up the energy a bit more. ~Izzy @-'---- 20:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

As long as it isn't tied to FC, I won't argue against another buff. arredondo 21:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Arredondo, I hope when you were comparing the eps of this spec'd at 11/14 inspiration you weren't comparing it to GoLE spec'd at 0. Comparing this to another professions pure e-management skill at 0 spec is not right. Also inspired hex/enchant give much lower energy because they are very useful utility+energy gain in one slot. Izzy, I think it would be neater to have another effect to this if you miss. An alternate effect e-management skill would rock. Either that or an energy boost that can't be abused by another profession. --Redfeather 22:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Read my posts again. I made it fully clear that an advantage of GoLE is that it needs no attribute points. In fact, I only compared the EPS of WN,WN at L11 and L14 Insp to the L0 GoLE. I said that GoLE is still a viable choice in the right setup, but you do have to have the right setup. The restrictions are clear... you have to have two 10E (or greater) spells that you are willing to cast within 15s of each GoLE recharge or your EPS goes down. If you ever need to use a 5E spell instead of two 10E spells, your EPS goes down. If you make a build that can't use an /Ele for secondary, you have no use for GoLE.

All of these things need to be taken into account. GoLE isn't always as straight forward as some would think. When it works for you it is fantastic, but having a Mesmer +energy skill whose EPS is comparable to GoLE that is easier to use is great also (despite needing specs), especially since it will be even better when it is buffed again. arredondo 23:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Redfeather, I misread your post with my response above so I crossed it out. You're saying that I shouldn't consider GoLE when evaluating the skill - I thought you were saying I didn't pay attention to the what GoLE does at L0. Sorry about that. To answer your question (leaving out GoLE), I think this skill should continue to not have a second function so that it will seem fair to give it a higher energy rate of return. It's purpose should be purely +energy for demanding builds that have few free slots and don't want to commit to an elite e-skill. arredondo 03:10, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that you want to use this with a X/me character :p Well i have nothing about it, but for insane energy gain for non-primary mesmer Power Drain still rules ^^ I also like to thank izzy as it looks like he's still concerned by this skill. Imo the way this skill goes and gets improved, it would become a kid of faster reloading Power Drain without disruption and with a bit weaker energy gain but still usefull.By the way that could be nice for energy issues if there's some KD on your team, i mean it might be used by people who have something to knockdown isn't it ? 88.121.255.37 12:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

GoLE at Level 0 stats is for a Mesmer primary, not x/Me. arredondo 15:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about the fact you didn't want a Fast Casting related bonussomething like 4 paragraphs above. Besides that's obvious, because it could only lead to an El/Me :p 88.121.255.37 15:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Nede f4st ca$t skIlls. ‽-(eronth) I give up 22:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, I would take this skill over something like Energetic Was Lee Sa anyday even when I am playing Ritualist. With an inspiration wand and offhand with 20% half skill recharge time of inspiration magic I reduce skill recharge of this skill 36% of the time. I know for sure that is is much easier to catch a caster not casting than casting. With 1/4 casting time it is almost a guarantee success. At just 8 attributes you can get a net energy gain of 6 energy. It is a perfect skill to exploit by Mesmer secondaries. --Shadetz X 03:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Why this would be preferred by a primary rit over energetic was lee sa totally baffles me. Unless you dislike urns. When we talk about "secondary" abuse we can leave eles and necros rits out cos they have better emanagement. Only profession that can get energy hungry often is monk. I really doubt monks in pressure can abuse this because this is still conditional and still requires a more or less an "interrupter's mindset" which monks may lose when pressured. But the thing that would make this skill much more interesting is - a penalty of some sort if you miss or fail :

- lose all energy

- loss of health

- skill disabled for extra duration

- some condition on yourself etc.

A nice fat penalty (with a better energy reward if you're successful) can discourage secondary abuse more than anything else. This has the potential to be a truly "mesmerish" spell rather than some e-management thrown in only to be abused. Other solutions to prevent secondary abuse is to increase the casting time, move to fastcast, bonus energy with fastcast etc.

The fact that you can only hold one urn at a time already discourge me from using Lee Sa. Why should I use Lee Sa when I can use this skill and use another urn instead. Not to mention that there's a casting time of 2 seconds for Lee Sa. I would use another urn like Tsungrai instead. Outside of the channeling line, Ritualist hardly have any decent gaining skills that is non elite. Boon of Creation is hardly sufficient for high energy spirits. Considering this is a non elite, it sure beats inspiration elites like mantra of recall (net energy gain of 10 at 10 inspiration). I think the better way to discourge secondaries from abusing this is to increase energy cost and energy gain of success by 5. This way failure will cost 10 energy.

Something about the name of the skill...err...it doesn't really sound like a skill, more like a shout to me though. Maybe something like Wastrel's Demand would fit here since it requires the foe not to cast a spell like other Wastrel skills and you gain energy which falls well for the Demand part in the name. ----InfestedHydralisk 20:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Simply make it interrupt if you hit them with it when they are casting or attacking. gg. --Lou-Saydus 05:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Even better, make it only fail when it hits a skill activation, not attacks too. --Srakin 01:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Post GW:EN preview feedback... this skill is bugged!

I've been messing with it during the preview weekend and while it is supposed to only work if a foe isn't casting a spell or attacking, it doesn't work if the enemy is doing any action whatsoever. Signets, Troll Unguent, spirits, stances, whatever - you don't get energy unless the foe is just standing or running. That's two Mesmer skills with major bugs (Sig of Illusion). Other than that, I hope that the extra energy buff will happen by the final release. I look forward to trying out the skill with new stats once the bugs are gone. --arredondo 08:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Bug still there... [[Image:Image-User xzabre sig.jpg [[User:Xzabre|'''Xzabre''']]]] 08:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Initial discussion

I think it would be cool if target couldn't be moving either. In that case, the energy bonus should be larger though. Right now it's too damn easy to catch a person who's moving around, especially with 1/4 cast, there's no chance the person will suddenly cast something or attack.--24.78.139.142 01:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I expect this to suffer the same fate of many other Inspiration skills: be abused by everyone but Mesmers, then be nerfed into something really bad : ( Erasculio 01:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree; it requires 4 inspiration just to recover the cost of the spell, and the time spent looking for someone who isn't attacking or casting would hamper the usefulness of this spell. You could hit a monk with it pretty regularly (quick cast times, most of their time spent is kiting), but I don't really see high inspiration req being abused - it doesn't interrupt or anything. -Auron 02:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You disagree, but you are also wrong. This will be insane with a Mantra of Recovery build. It will be infinite energy if you swap to a 40/40 Inspiration set while MoR is up. -- Fenix 04:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah 40/40 with MoR ...

If a mantra of recovery mesmer takes this instead of pdrain or drain enchant, he's an idiot; this has no utility. Its sole purpose is energy management, which mesmers are fine on anyway. -Auron 04:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

But the point is that you CAN bring it, and be able to spam higher cost spells a lot more frequently. Even if the person isn't MoR, a 40/40 set will make this more than enough to bring on a /Me -- Fenix 04:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Mesmer's already have amazing energy management (when played well) with skills that do much better things than simply return energy. Interrupts etc, or Auspicious Incantation anyone?! I dont see this skill getting much use on an already crowded mesmer bar. --ChronicinabilitY 05:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Auron on this one. The nice energy management balances the lack of utility or vv. If you think this one will be overpowered, you should compare to leader's zeal - it certainly isn't a lock on para skill bars. 203.217.0.53 05:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Get 'em on the aftercast. 71.141.110.230 08:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This skill should read "You gain 1...13...16 energy" because meeting the condition is trivial in organized play...just target whoever you've sicced your warriors on. --Symbol 09:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

not casting a spell or attacking... wouldnt pretty much anything in combat be doing one of those two things? good with a knockdown or a hex that prevents attacking though...

If you've got a warrior attacking you, you aren't doing either of these; you're kiting. Which makes the conditional somewhat easy to meet. -Auron 11:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this won't become a staple. What are you going to run it at, 10 spec? 11 spec? At 11 spec you're netting 7 energy per cast, 21 per minute for a pip overall without too much time invested. Drain Enchantment, same spec, kicks back 16 per cast, 6 net, 12 per minute. GLE unspecced is worth 30 per minute if you have a skillset that supports it. Swapping to a dual 20% recharge set for every cast is worth about 22% more energy overall for each one, say 25 for this thing and 14.5 for Drain Enchant. Do you think getting another 10, 11 energy out of that skillslot is worth giving up a useful ability like blowing up enchantments? I don't, not most of the time at least. I imagine it'll see some niche use on bars that really need the energy and can't afford the time, attention, or secondary to use anything else. Ease of use does count for something, not that Drain Enchantment is hard to use. -Ensign 12:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll just drop the recharge a bit until this skill becomes viable, probably start with 15r and maybe inch the energy up a little on the low end so it's more viable at lower specs. ~Izzy @-'---- 22:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I like that buff suggestion. I can see it being used for general builds that way. arredondo 18:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistent with lesser rewards

The way I see it a spell which has a likelihood of failure (power drain) has to have greater rewards than a spell which doesn't run risks (energy tap)

With waste not, if you're running 10 in inspiration magic, you gain 6 energy (11-5) by timimg it so that you get the opponent when he is not attacking and not casting spells. A flag runner and a post-interrupt caster being examples.

This is one of those e-management skills which is conditional depending on the state of the target but does not affect the target in any way. Another similar skill being Signet of lost souls which is superior in energy gain, recharge, and bags you health as well. Somehow I feel a target not doing anything is actually more conditional than a target being below 50% health.

When compared to drain enchantment, power drain, leech signet this fails again, because all the others hamper the target in some way or other. When compared to very mediocre energy tap, this is still inferior because it's energy gain not energy steal.

Inferior to existing emanagment skills with the consistency/inconsistency of an interrupt makes this one of the 2 useless e-management skills introduced with GWEN. The other one being signet of recall.

If you miss with this while playing a Domination Mesmer, you're really, really, really, REALLY bad. It's as close to unconditional as you can get for that archtype. -Ensign 04:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

In PvE, I still think a target below 50% health (Signet of lost souls) is less condtional than a target not doing anything at all. In PvP, this is quite easy to pull off.

Yeah, but nobody else here is talking about PvE. --72.211.155.160 06:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Strange name

Hmm, not sure I'm a fan of the name of the skill -- it feels distinctly un-Mesmer-ish. :-/ I'd rather take something with e.g. "Power" to help guide a new user into mentally grouping it together with other energy gaining skills. -- Jonas N 11:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it was called "wastrel's feast" earlier. Waste not want not is not the best name for a mesmer skill I agree :) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:59.92.14.128 .

Call it 'Slight of Hand' :D I like the sound of that. Snap your fingers and gain a little energy.--Redfeather 13:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The icon looks like my GF saying WHATEVER!! ~ Kurd 18:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

You waste nothing by taking this skill, so theres not a want to take this skill. :D I don't like this skill... (Terra Xin 11:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC))

Me too Terra Xin. It does not make me feel creative. It is synergiless. If that's a word. --Redfeather 16:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Another poor energy management skill in Inspiration line

This skill is currently not very useful.

At 13 in Inspiration it gives back 14 energy points, for a cost of 5 energy points and a reload of 20 seconds.

That means a net gain of 9 energy points, and a gain of 0,45 energy point by second.

Compared to Signet of lost souls (1,125 energy point by second), Glyph or lesser energy (0,97 energy point by second), or even Ether signet (0,42 energy point by second, but with a condition far easiest to meet than the Waste not one...) it is underpowered.

Reduce the reload time to 15 seconds and increase slighty the energy gain and this skill could become a true alternative to Ether signet and Auspicious incantation. The fact that you can only hold one urn at a time already discourge me from using Lee Sa. Not to mention that there's a casting time of 2 seconds. I would use another urn like Tsungrai instead. Outside of the channeling line, Ritualist hardly have any decent gaining skills. Boon of Creation is hardly sufficient for high energy spirits. Considering this is a non elite, it sure beats inspiration elites like mantra of recall (net energy gain of 10 at 10 inspiration). I think the better way to discourge secondaries from abusing this is to increase energy cost and energy gain of success by 5. This way failure will cost 10 energy. --Shadetz X 21:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

(Trouveur 16:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

Alternate Effect Suggestions

I am growing weary of all these e-management skills being added. It really is diluting the inspiration waters. This skill on the other hand has the potential to be truly different. I think it needs to be tweaked to really set it apart from other e-management options in the inspiration line.

Waste Not Want Not:(5 energy cost, 1 second cast, 12 second recharge)

Spell. You gain 1...13...16 Energy. If target foe is casting a Spell or attacking, this skill is disabled for an additional 30...20...18 seconds--Redfeather 20:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That's totally retarded. If you miss with this in PvP you're either really unlucky or a complete idiot. --Symbol 05:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I like this idea redfeather. Recharge still seems a bit too short though. Maybe 12 seconds would be better. And why not move this to fast casting ? Some mesmer secondary is always gonna abuse anything good from inspiration.

I edited it's recharge and energy gain of the one above, plus I got one more. Can you tell I'm pushing for another self heal option? lol

Waste Not Want Not:(5 energy cost, 1 second cast, 15 second recharge)

Spell. If target foe is not casting a Spell or attacking, You gain 1...10...12 Energy. Otherwise, you are healed for 1...120...150--Redfeather 13:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I lean towards seeing an alternate option to Ether Feast, as below.

Waste Not, Want Not: (5, 1, 15)

Spell. If target foe is not casting a Spell or attacking, you gain 1...10...12 Energy and 50...130...150 health. Craw 15:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Another suggestion:

Waste Not, Want Not:(5 energy, 1/2sec cast, 12sec recharge)

Spell. If target foe is not attacking of casting a Spell, that foe loses 4...7...8 Energy. You gain 2 Energy for each point of Energy lost. Miss Velvetine

All of those seem overpowered. The first offers some insane energy gain, and it's easy not to fulfill the condition, just target a kiting enemy. The heal in the second idea doesn't really make sense. And the third might work, just with a toned down energy drain/return. It's currently better, or at least equal to Energy Drain. 220.101.137.117 11:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's assume that the condition will almost always be easy-ish to pull off, let's just add a little more clout to it.

Waste Not, Want Not:(5 energy, 1/4sec cast, 20sec recharge)

Spell. If target foe is not attacking or casting a Spell, You gain 1...13...16 energy, plus 1 energy for every 2 ranks in fast casting.

Definitely something Mesmers will enjoy. Remember, Fast Casting and Inspiration alone has never killed anyone. Compared to Offering of Spirit / Blood, in lines that have some pretty potent damage/utility spells.--Skye Marin 03:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I deeply love the last suggestion however i would raise casting time up to 1 second therefore only mesmers could easily use this skill and it won't hurt them if they run good invest into fast casting. Assuming they run 10 fast casting and inspiration, this skill would give them back a net 11 energy boost. That's pretty nice imo ^^ but if you want this skill to be a good alternative to Power Drain i think you should raise the initial energy gain just a little bit so that it has a higher rate (energy gained by second) than Power Drain's which is also used because it disrupts. 91.168.171.145 15:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add one last thing : skills like Power Drain are extremely powerful energy management skills with the ability to disrupt and using MoR really makes them extremely usefull and i don't think Mesmers using MoR (which is very common by now) need Waste Not,Want Not. therefore those who think this skill should open the way for new kinds of energy management skill for non-MoR mesmer could turn this skill into something like

Waste Not, Want Not:(5 energy, 1sec cast, 20sec recharge)

1st Improvement : Spell. If target foe is not attacking nor casting a Spell, you gain 1...16...20 energy, plus 1 energy for every 2 ranks in fast casting. This Spell fails when you are under the effects of a Stance.

--> With 10 Inspi & Fast Casting, this skill offers a net 14 energy gain every 20 seconds (higher rate than Power Drain w/o MoR for primary mesmers) but can easily be used by non-primary Mesmer.

2nd Improvement : Spell. If target foe is not attacking nor casting a Spell, you gain 1...13...16 energy, plus 1 energy for every rank in fast casting. This Spell fails when you are under the effects of a Stance.

--> With 10 Inspi & Fast Casting, this skill offers a net 16 energy gain every 20 seconds, that's pretty balanced compared to the other version but with a nice advantage for primary Mesmer.

Another way, with a change concerning reloading time

Waste Not, Want Not:(5 energy, 1sec cast, 15sec recharge)

Other Way : Spell. If target foe is not attacking nor casting a Spell, you gain 1...16...20 energy, plus 1 energy for every 2 ranks in fast casting. This Spell fails when you are under the effects of a Stance.

--> With 10 Inspi & Fast Casting, this skill offers a net 14 energy gain every 15 seconds resulting in a ~0.93/s rate which is the same rate than GoLE. (that was submitted by Trouveur in the Another Poor Energy Management Skill Section). If you think this is too much, you can change the scaling into 1...13...16.

I'm not pretty sure however of this "This Spell fails when you are under the effects of a Stance", it can be removed but if it is, this skill shouldn't have a really awesome rate or it might be abused by MoR imo.Besides these ways the skill looks really too conditional ~~91.168.171.145 16:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Useless because:

This skill has no other use than energy managment while most mesmer skills do two things at a time (dmg+e denial, debuff+energy, degen+conditon, etc...).

Would mesmers really want to spear one slot just for e-managment considering how crowded their skillbars are already ? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:85.168.232.8 .

This skill would be nicer if it had some energy-stealing effect like e-drain & e-tap.

It looks likeit's a no-drawback alternative of Auspicious Incantation. So I wouldn't say useless. -- ab.er.rant 03:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

This has zero utility. Auspicious actually has utility (very limited, but it's there). This is abysmal compared to the utility energy management spells (pdrain, shame, drain enchant), because it doesn't do anything. -Auron 03:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

reduce recharge or increase energy gain plz

Isn't the energy gain just a little higher than Energy Tap? I'd rather spend 3 seconds stealing another persons energy than just... that. (Terra Xin 01:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC))

Wow, this is a nice skill, and it's not even elite. This will be useful in hard mode too, in which many enemies will run from AoE spells. ---DK

Not it's not useful. currently Ether Signet gives almost the same amount of energy by second and doesn't require a target. (Trouveur 11:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC))

An Idea

Make it the first spell with a 0 second activation, so that once you interupt you can use this and get energy pretty safely. Atm, that wont be as easy because of the cast time. Or making it a shout could be cool.--Renegade 16:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Not really, your interrupt has aftercast, and if you interrupt a target they don't incur aftercast. 1/4 is about as good as it gets. ~Seef II <☎> 00:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this is meant to be used immediately after a foe uses a skill, right on their after casting time where they arent casting or attacking. Fast Casting makes it more accurate to hit the aftercast time.Shyke Lightning 05:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Translation Suggestions

To avoid some bad skill translations i'm opening a comment for new skills so everybody can post their translation suggestions in various languages, have fun :) --YukoIshii 00:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Italian: Nessuno Spreco, Nessun Desiderio (this is difficult, could it be something like "Non sprecare, Non Desiderare" ??) --YukoIshii 00:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

French: Il n'y a pas de petits profits (it's hard to translate proverbs) Utaku

Spanish: It's difficult because I don't know what person (1st, 2nd, 3rd, sing, plural) to use: "No quiero/deseo, no malgasto/desperdicio". If you want it in infinite, it's "No querer/desear, no malgastar/desperdiciar"

energy loss as well as energy gain perhaps

"Waste not want not" makes me think the skill should steal energy rather than merely gain it... After all, my take on the skill....

You're a mesmer. You see a target. Your target has lots of energy, but isn't using any of it. Why not take some of that energy and use it yourself, after all, they aren't using it. I don't feel the energy should come from nowhere, perhaps it should steal 1/2 the energy you gain, and they must be doing no actions. Not walking, casting, attacking, ect. Just standing there. Or perhaps have it be a hex spell, like Wastrel's worry, after the duration of the hex ends, (say 2-3 seconds) you gain some amount of energy. If they use a skill that costs energy in that time, the hex ends prematurely, and you gain no energy. I don't know, perhaps I'm not thinking clearly. Devvu 01:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

That Wastrel functionality idea is pretty nice actually. It's a lot more interesting to play and suits the playstyle and mentality of playing a mesmer. This current simply click and gain energy just doesn't feel right. --Redfeather 05:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Turning this into a hex has a lot of potential. In PvP, it'd still be semi-reliable because you can target warriors (who tend to be mostly adrenal) and kiters, but you have to think ahead a few seconds rather than just go for the most obvious target all the time. I'm not sure the energy stealing is really necessary, though that does make it pretty strategic (a nice way to doubly screw over a kiting caster). — 130.58 (talk) 23:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Best suggestion yet

This is what this skill should look like, with some adjustment to recharge/energy loss:

Waste Not, Want Not:(5 energy, 1/2sec cast, 12sec recharge)

Spell. If target foe is not attacking of casting a Spell, that foe loses 4...7...8 Energy. You gain 2 Energy for each point of Energy lost. Miss Velvetine

I like this suggestion. NeonCrusader 04:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Owns Energy Tap then, imo. Calor (t) 04:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Reverse the values then; in other words: Spell. If target foe is not attacking of casting a Spell, that foe loses 2 Energy. You gain 4...7...8 Energy for each point of Energy lost. NeonCrusader 04:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

As it is a skill that is intended to give energy, and with the new list of 1-energy skills, I'd have suggested to reduce the income by 4 and make this a 1-energy skill. This would reduce the energy loss in case it fails. But this would make a diffrence again if you want to change this to an energy stealing skill. —ZerphaThe Improver 22:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

PvE-influenced opinion

In PvE this skill seems to be totally useless for the AI is programmed not to stop attacking/casting. Even a Zealous Hornbow gives more energy. My suggestion would be making two skills of it:

Waste not...

5 ¼ 15

Gain 1..12..15 energy if target foe is not using a skill.

...Want not

5 ¼ 15

Gain 0..9..12 energy if target foe is not attacking.

Noctarch 00:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The AI is programmed to not attack or cast...When it's using a non-attack non-spell skill (signets come to mind here), and when moving. This makes this skill easy to use as long as you cast it on melee enemies who are not within adjacent range of any of your allies. Erasculio 00:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

When is that ever going to happen in PvE?? The enemy AI always auto-attacks even the mage classes auto attack so you will rarely have the opportunity to use this skill. Sometimes the melee programing makes the NPC's switch targets, but still it will only leave you with a two to one second gap and they will attack whoever is closest to them. This skill is still not viable for energy gain and Glyph of Lesser Energy will always be a better choice to use than this skill.William Wallace 17:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

A pity, I have to agree. In total. Noctarch 23:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Only when running after someone. If this skill had an added knockback it could be good. 217.69.10.65 14:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Aftercast delay

Wastenot and Wantnot

I think the name of this skill is/can be a reference to Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series (two characters there are called Wastenot and Wantnot, if anyone recalls). Approval? If so, add to Trivia (or Notes). I don't dare. --84.3.228.244 14:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Those are derivative names and are based on the original saying, not the other way around. --JonTheMon 15:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Never mind then :) --84.3.228.244 17:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Waste not want not pwns u

yes, it's true <33. Tbh i think this skill is over-looked far too much. "The enemy AI always auto-attacks even the mage classes auto attack so you will rarely have the opportunity to use this skill" I disagree, yes all PvE class' auto attack but theres more than enough times to use it. Remember the skill will only fail if the target is casting a spell or attacking not if the target is using a skill, signet, binding ritual or nature ritual. Imo theres more than enough times to meet the requirements in both PvE and even more so in PvP, just need to pay attention :P --AthenaGaia 03:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity

Why was the secondary effect of adding an interrupt on miss never added? Many of the suggestions here don't seem to be fully thought out, but when it comes to interrupts, most Mesmer skills currently have an additional effect besides the simple interrupt. It wouldn't hurt to allow this to function much like that. Another possible suggestion: cause this skill to disable all of the opponents other skills for 0...1 seconds in addition to the energy if target isn't casting or attacking, hitting 1 at 8 or 10 as to avoid abuse by non-mesmer classes. This would feed nicely into the name of the skill and would allow it much more versatility as a micro-blackout. Just a though. 128.255.216.144 21:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

perhaps because the skill is fine the way it is. Mesmers have more then enough interupts already. Dont give them yet another int spell to totally screw the elemenatlists--Justice 16:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

what do u want to interupt when u miss something, you could just use that at any random time then to disable a characters' skills would totally drain adrenaline on wars and would be abused on the backline when about to spike InfestedHydralisk 17:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

good point on the adrenalin. Heros (at least my xanrda) know how to use this skill. She wouldnt cast it if the Axe master was attacking but would use it when he was in mid run or using heal signet. She will use it whenever its recharged, the foe meets the skills requirements and she is below max energy. Talk about great AI on a skill few think to use--Justice 17:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

different heroes dont use skills different :/ InfestedHydralisk 17:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing obvious about a hero being able to use a complex skill corectly. In fact its damned suprising. Didint bother with revert of a revert because it would be kinda cluttersome if every skill page had a note on wethere a hero could use it or not--Justice 18:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it would be awesomely useful. 95.119.59.128 06:19, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Trivia

Is the first line of trivia really needed? --neshot 17:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Why not? I think it's pretty interesting. - J.P.Talk 18:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a pretty well-known term. --neshot 18:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Well obvously it wasnt removed, however I had never heard of it and I appreciate its explanation. Its in the trivia section if that says anything to support it, the next time a person comes along and wants to remove it. Justice 10:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Even if 9/10 people know the phrase, it's still worth it for the other 1/10. 59.100.118.70 07:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

That, and if english isn't your native language, you're quite likely never to have heard of it even if you're completely comfortable with the language otherwise. -- NilePenguin 21:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Wording

Spell. If target foe is not casting a spell or attacking, you gain 8...12...13 Energy. Concise description Spell. You gain 8...12...13 Energy if target foe is not attacking or casting a spell.

Shouldnt or be nor?--83.82.62.210 17:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Grammatically, the phrasing is ambiguous. "... is neither casting a spell nor attacking" would be more accurate, yes. Within the greater context, the current wording should be understandable as it is. MA Anathe 23:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)