Talk:Winds of Change/A3

It has begun!

Here we go people! Titan Crow 23:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Ba dum! It. Is. Ready!-- Necro Shea Mo 02:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Why did it take a whole year to put this content together?

The first 5 quest have all been disgustingly simple "run to this point and kill a group of npc" quests. Really hope it gets better further on, because the beginning has been mind-numbingly simple xD--Four Year Strong 23:50, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

You forgot Hearts of the North. 69.121.219.6 00:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

It took a whole year to do... Hearts of the North; Halloween's new quests, costumes, and changes to Costume Brawl; Wintersday's new quests, costumes, and finale dialogue; Embark Beach's update; the Dervish update; the 6th Anniversary update; the PvP update from the beginning of June; and the first of three parts of Winds of Change, which is ~20 quests (and their HM versions), costumes, weapons, and perhaps more. Konig/talk 00:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Well said, Konig. --Musha 01:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, well said. The facts don't make it any less disappointing, though. ThrainFile:User Thrain Sig.pngcontribs 03:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Disappointing? I don't think we could've asked for more with such a small Live team... Waar Kijk Je Naar™ 10:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I think what's disappointing is that they drum up a lot of hype... 20+ quests, epic story, very exciting, etc etc from all the talk from the developers, and we get this. 20 quests are basically the same quests recycled. The story is weak and the writing is cliched and derivative... and there is just nothing that is actually exciting about it. WiK was exciting. WoC is not. 132.178.2.64 18:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

You must remember 2 things: 1) This is just the first part, it's a prologue of sorts, it's setting up the story rather than being the story. THe first set of quests (cleaning up the Afflicted) are merely meant to help flesh out who the Ministry of Purity is. The story becomes interesting when you get to Xan's quests - but this is still just the beginning of the story. Was the dialogues one must sit through in WiK exciting? To some, yes, to others no. These quests are those beginning dialogues. Konig/talk 22:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Wow,just done it today and it felt epic! Loved the story,loved how your character was involved in this,loved the changes they made in explorables and loved how they made it challenging! I certainly can't wait for p2 and p3!109.93.3.113 19:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

you sound like a dev trying to make people more excited about WoC. But, in my opinion we can't be choosy. We bought a game, we played it, and now they add more stuff, for free. I'm just glad I have an excuse to play guild wars again.~Nohjo 15:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Changes to explorables

I take it we will be wanting to do the same with WoC explorables as we did with the WiK explorables? Konig/talk 02:38, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with "Hard mode versions of explorables are not altered until the hard mode version of the quest is completed." I've finished the 17 quests only in normal mode and got the 'To Be Continued' cut-scene. So far I've checked Zen Daijun, Shenzun Tunnels, and Shadows Passage. They're all showing changed foes. There must be a different (additional?) trigger for changes to Hard Mode areas. --Guild Free 01:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Yep, I just went into Minister Cho's Estate (explorable area) after doing the WoC quest, and instead of the regular newbie-level spawns, I found multiple mobs of six level 24 Scavengers. In hard mode, they were level 26 and kicked my butt soundly. Anyone wanting Canthan Vanquisher is advised to finish that first before tackling WoC. -- Hong 13:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Winds of Neverending

lol. its sooooo long. --Moto Saxon 03:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Just finished it in less than five hours. Probably closer to four just over four and a half hours. -- Armond Warblade 03:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

You finished all ~20 NM quests? Konig/talk 03:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. There were 17 total main quests; there's another 17 HM quests, for a total of 34, and there's one quest chain we didn't go for because the other guys have stuff to do. I don't think we're going to do the non-main quests for another couple days (one guy wasn't interested, the other is busy with irl a lot), but we might go back to the hm quests. -- Armond Warblade 03:45, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, i thought there were 42 nm quests. That makes it not so bad. --Moto Saxon 03:46, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

It's still a lot of content. The later quests have a lot of enemies; the ending was quite surprising, but because we had just spent ~20 minutes fighting giant mobs every time we moved more than an agrro bubble's distance, we weren't quite able to appreciate it as much as we might. -- Armond Warblade 03:51, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Haha. My reaction to the ending. (linked because its kinda spoilery) -- Hong 15:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Why did you remove Xan Hei?

Initiate Zei doesn't give the quests, Xan does. Malchior said that the "main storyline" is internally referred to as Phase 1, while the Xan Hei quests are Phase 2. But, it's your call. --BarGamer 07:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

If so, Malchior's incorrect. There is one main storyline, the first part of it (phase one) is cleaning out the Afflicted. The second part of the same chain is taking care of the Am Fah and Jade Brotherhood, given by Xen. There are 2 quest chains - just 2 - one started (as the article states, hopefully now with more clarity) by Zei - continued later by Tsuriai, then Zei again, then Xan - and the side chain given solely by Lei. Konig/talk 07:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

To clarify, phase 1 was used internally in reference to the first portion of the main storyline quests - which is up to Cleansing Morostav Trail - not the main storyline as a whole. Konig/talk 07:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

All the Winds of Change quest givers should be listed, they're all part of it and people need to know who to get the quests from. Ramei Arashi 07:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

And they will be when the walkthrough is made, which cannot be made until people go through it. Konig/talk 08:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I edited it so that you guys stop giving inaccurate information. It is the same quest chain, and how you guys were putting it up was stating there's 3 chains - one with 17 quests, one with 3, and one with 5. Which is wrong. And now I've gone and gotten upset over something tedious because of people who refuse to realize that information is already documented. Konig/talk 08:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I also tossed up a brief walk through with the quest chain order and locations of the NPC's. that should help a bit for now. --Moto Saxon 17:12, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

How did you do them all in four and a half hours? The last quest in HM alone took me at least one hour!74.190.246.112 16:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Zen Daijun, Cho's Estate

The page mentions that you have to finish Zen Daijun for that cleansing quest, but it fails to mention that the same goes for Cho's Estate. Pastafarian Hunter 10:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Added. I assume the same would go for Cleansing the Sunjiang District - luckly, unlike the other two, that one cannot be skipped so no mention necessary. :D Konig/talk

Are the hard mode equivalents subsequent as well? Because I can't seem to do "Cleansing the undercity" in HM without having completed Shenzun Tunnels in HM! Medic 12:32, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you must do the HM quests in order as well. --Moto Saxon 15:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

NM vs HM

Wow, NM is like playing in HM, what was Anet thinking? And HM is like some super mode of overpowered foes. Does Anet really take the time to test and balance the new content with players? Or just with some hardcore inside people with secret builds that know the tricks. I took my heroes and I couldn't believe the number of party wipes just in nm. I do VQs with my heroes and rarely ever party wipe and I wiped more times with the nm quests than the last 30 VQs combined. And HM isn't worth the effort, it's just no fun. Anet did the same thing with the Battle for LA where they made it so hard they had to tone it down. I don't mind a challenge, esp since me and my heroes do well in the game, but this is just ridiculous. Anet in their continued effort to hurt players keep nerfing skills and player builds but they keep making the foes overpowered. Many of the players on here are not hardcore players that play 16 hours a day with secret builds. And where is the versatility of builds and groups? A lot of the skills and even some of the player professions are either almost useless or are useless. I keep seeing many of the players running the same skills and builds over and over as they are the only ones really effective. This new content does not seem worth the wait...just go here and kill overpowered foes...go there and kill those overpowered foes...etc. NM is doable but HM isn't worth the time, it's just monotonous and no fun.

Please sign. Also, wik had some tough nm quests/missions. take out the necros first, that should help. the first 6 were pretty easy imo. minister cho's estate was tough. --Moto Saxon 13:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

If you'll notice, the enemy builds are quite aimed at countering the majority of meta PvE builds used by players. In fact, many of the builds ARE those meta PvE builds used by the majority of players. The large number of groups offer large damage builds with immense defense, including discord/resto necros. It's really not that difficult, you just have to pay attention to their builds, and adapt to counter their efforts. One thing I can say... is avoid minion masters all together: The necros basically all have verata's minion stealing skills of some form, and unfortunately are more efficient raising minions than your hero NPCs (even runed with bloodstained insigs and using AoL). I've had success with a heavily defensive and interrupt heavy team. I actually built my team (7 heroes + myself) based on pvp tactics and team building. I do agree about the monotony, Guild Wars, as of late, has been somewhat lackluster in general; in terms of both PvP and PvE updates and balancing. Something as small as 1 new skill per profession for each Beyond content update would change the game dramatically. Just my opinion. --Mythoryk.

I dunno about you guys, but we just brought mesmer heroes and stuff died. There was also a significant lack of vocal minority, which meant SY and TNTF were on everyone as long as I was alive. They also didn't have any hard spirit counters, so Xandra was a big help on Shing Jea. Furthermore, neither the Am Fah nor the Jade Brotherhood brought Vereta's skills that I noticed - or, at least, our two MMs (one of which was a minipure NPC) weren't slowed down by it. The biggest annoyance was the necro/mesmer explosions that stripped prots and SoH from our dagger spam sin.

And, OP, please don't try to give us this bullshit about "hardcore players that play 16 hours a day with secret builds" - the three humans in my group are all very casual players. We were doing some Nightfall rushing to get my mesmer to DoA when winds of change came out on us and we decided to do that instead. Altogether we were at the game for maybe six hours total, and it was starting to wear on us. Usually we quit after three or four hours because we just get tired of Guild Wars - that's not at all hardcore. And builds aren't secret at all; you just have to know what works and what doesn't. Casters work. SoH on an assassin with jagged, fox fangs, and db works. Mesmers work very well, since their skills are all about denial combined with damage. (Mistrust does over 100 damage in aoe just for dropping it on an ele. Cry of Frustration does ~50 aoe damage if you put it on a hero. Spiritual Pain is spammable armor-ignoring damage. Panic shuts down entire mobs at once, especially in WoC where they conveniently ball up before you agro. Etc.) Smite monks and channeling/resto rits work, since they're defense and offense combined - Ray of Judgment is a good way to wipe mobs and is available every pull, or every other pull in later quests, Signet of Spirits is powerful offense combined with support for the resto line, etc. It's not about being hardcore, it's about having the brainpower to check PvX for hero builds and adapt to skill updates.

-- Armond Warblade 13:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

"the three humans in my group are all very casual players. We were doing some Nightfall rushing to get my mesmer to DoA" You realise you contradicted yourself right there don't you? NF Rushing to get to an elite mission is hardly casual play. Yu Takami 15:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "casual" implicates how often one plays, not what one plays or how well one plays it. Besides, elite missions are some of the only content in the game worth playing; "normal pve" is boring to me after the first time. -- Armond Warblade 03:13, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Playing gw pve at all is so deep into casual territory it hurts. -Auron 03:24, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Most people barely have enough brain power to copy paste PvX builds. Most people think their "original" horrible team build is magnificent and refuse to "stoop" to using PvX builds... and even then, those who copy-paste the builds fail to consider that some skill and build substitutions are necessary to beat an area with little difficulty. For example our 4-man build for rescue at minister cho was quite sub par... but we ended up beating it anyway just because we were too lazy to restart it since we were already halfway through the quest. Most people fail to recognize that the build is subpar and think that the area is just overpowered. I just keep telling people to just use builds that abuse the game for a easy time killing the mobs, but no one in my guild listens to me. 132.178.2.64 17:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what [What OP said] I'm thinking, too. 60% DP rushing, hoping to kill one more guy is just ~soooooo~ much fun. Sigh. I should have known better. I'll never complete GWEN because of that BS, and WiK was just messed up and all over and impossible to find stuff, so I have no idea how hard it is or is not and now WoC is just HM everywhere. Newsflash: if I wanted to play HM (I don't) I'd toggle the little switch that says "hard mode" on my party window. --Emkyooess 00:06, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The aspect of Guild Wars that separates it from WoW, EQ, etc... is precisely your issue. Guild Wars (Build Wars) is almost primarily based on figuring out what you're up against, tweaking your team composition, and dominating your opponents (in this case, NPCs with fixed builds). If you're constantly 60DPed out and continually going in to kill one more enemy, the entire team composition is wrong, start from scratch, try something new. This is what make Guilds Wars what it is. Being the better team in the end. Not haphazardly using the same team build in every instance hoping that it works. WoW is that way ----> --Mythoryk.

Why don't you borrow some haphazardly made builds and start winning instead of whining? Vili 点 03:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

This content is no where near as hard as WiK was when it came out, there's nothing to complain about. I got through the whole thing with no wipes and about 5~10 indiviudal deaths (heroes only). This wasn't intended to be easy content, but Anet did determine that they should lower difficulty based on the WiK survey. They hit the difficulty right on the spot - interesting for people with developed builds and a something to work for for people with poor builds. People who find it too easy get the HM quests which are a great touch, I've tried the first HM quest and it wasn't too hard but the first two quests are a joke anyway, it should get interesting at the 3rd quest. As for seeing players run the same old builds that work well, that's just the PvX fans. They all use the same builds and will rarely take the initiative to change a skill in their build when it's appropriate. I guarantee you there are many builds that are non standard and, not only do they work at least as well as PvX builds, they work far far better. Discordway and Sabway are outdated, overused and obsolete to people who still have the initiative to make a team build starting with 8 empty skill bars. Don't hesistate to experiment, is the best advice I can give. Mesmers work well in high end content, too. K2K 07:40, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Hard mode is finally hard, and people complain? Wait what? So far Rescue at Cho's Estate (Hard mode version) is the first quest in the whole game I actually needed to team up with other humans because my heroes couldn't do it. And that's great. If you're having trouble in the NM quests, you might want to take a look at your builds. Waar Kijk Je Naar™ 08:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

"Look at your builds". The few team builds we swap around got us Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall just find. As for other builds, who can afford them, what with skills costing so much each and points running out. --Emkyooess 13:56, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, but if you have finished three campaigns you should have gotten plenty of cash and skill points to at the very least get every skill of your primary profession. Even moreso these days with books, additional mission rewards, and the odd Zaishen thing. Don't forget tomes, too, which save even more money. Finally, a lot of the best non-elite skills in the game can be gotten for free from various quests and other ways. I know I'm kind of an odd one because I have played through at least three campaigns with each of my...what...12? characters, but still. Money just isn't hard to come by these days. 67.180.236.203 14:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Just a reminder: tomes only work if you've already unlocked the skill or paid for those "skill unlock packs" in the store. --Emkyooess 16:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm going to grace myself out of this thread. It's pretty obvious that other than the OP and myself, no one on this wiki has any idea what we're talking about. Apparently people don't understand that we just want to be able to play the game and enjoy it with reasonable challenges. The wiki seems to be populated by condescending elite players, that much is clear. A.net continues to do a good job of reinforcing my opinion of "Don't touch GW2 even with anyone else's money." --Emkyooess 16:26, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Is it elite to expect you to know what you're doing? -- Armond Warblade 16:33, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Over 90% of the wiki players are terribly casual and have a lot of trouble even finding the first quest. Don't overestimate these people. That said, take a longbow and lure in the future. - Infinite - talk 16:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

"is it elite to expect you to know what you're doing?"
"Quest came out 3 days ago"
Sorry but my prescription for ESP pills ran out last month. --Briar AHOY! 00:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

The difficult was reasonable, calling people elitest as your refutation isn't exactly a solid arguement, more like an Ad Hominem. Quite frankly, GuildWars1 is a very old game indeed, most players have had the game for several years and have enough experience to make over 95% of the game so easy it's boring, even many areas in HM are starting to feel like that to many people. That's just the reality. There is an abundance of content with a difficulty that caters towards people who aren't experienced, but there needs to be a range of difficulty in a game to keep it interesting. I don't even want to say this content was difficult, playing WiK with henchman was, but it is a step up from most missions, and thank god for that. If you want reasonable challenges there are countless hours of that already availble, by the time you're done with all that you should have some great builds. It's also very silly to be making opinions of GW2 based on what is being released now on GW1, for one thing, the people creating the content are two completely separate groups of people. I'm surprised people have flared up this topic again - surely people could expect something as difficult as WoC after WiK? K2K 07:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't know... Having worked my way through about half of the WoC quests so far, I actually have to concur with the OP. The difficulty of WoC is MARKEDLY higher than any other PvE content I've played in GW to date. I can honestly say that playing WoC in NM is about the same difficulty as I was having playing WiK in HM. And I have 7 Heroes to help me out this time! I can still beat the quests, but I'm averaging about 2 or 3 deaths (not wipes) per quest, where I'm used to NO deaths at all. I'm not even gonna bother trying the HM version of the quests, to be honest.

I appreciate that ANet's trying to keep things fresh and challenging for players who have been with GW for a very long time now, and are therefore capable of handling just about every situation they can throw at them. But it feels like ANet's raising the bar higher and higher until even doing NM quests is similar to trying to complete HM missions. That's going too far, in my opinion; sometimes, some of us just want to be able to throw together a group of Heroes/henchies, or even a PUG, and roll through some new story and lore content WITHOUT having to plan for the mission like it's a trip into UW/DoA and lug along Discordway necros, SoS rits and Imbagons every single time in order to be assured of victory.

HM and HM quests are there for the people who want a challenge, ANet. Please keep NM to the levels of difficulty we've seen in the campaigns. - Zaxares 08:13, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You cite the fact that you died 2 or 3 times in a mid-length quest as "incredibly difficult", when really there's nothing wrong with that. What happened to the good old days when people would get stuck on The Frost Gate mission? Back when Normal Mode was really hard. This feels like that again. Most people have to get owned a few times, go back to the outpost, lick their wounds, and make a better team build. If nothing else, this will make the dedicated players better. 69.121.219.6 18:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I remember being stuck at Zen Daijun for a long time, just when Factions came out. Good old days ;D... ofcourse that was when I was playing GW for about 1 month... I did all of the WoC quests in 1 day, and found the difficulty great... it was challenging but fun, but not like it was the hardest thing. The only real challenge was in the lagoon, the rest was okay. I suffered a few wipes, but that's what it takes to win. Don't give up because you wipe! This content isn't hard at all once you get the hang of it. I found it fun to do something more challenging than usual. This was more fun than vanquishing Elona! ;D...

Simply try to do your best and you'll make it through. If not, ask a guild mate for help, just like in the good old days!--81.164.149.2 23:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The opening poster is absolutely correct, and he is alsocorrect in his assessment that the posters here are elitists who clearly do not understand his statements are from an AVERAGE user. While you are correct that his comment about elitism doesn't help his argument, neither does the elephant-hurling and ad hominem attacks that some of his detractors have engaged in. However, it DOES give a good reason why he no longer wants to debate the subject. I can only hope that ANet reads his comments with a more discerning eye than his detractors here have.

I found the challenges interesting (and extremely difficult), but it's the permanent changes to the areas that I find just terrible. We average players with average builds find it nearly impossible to make it through an area in normal mode. In my opinion, the changes completely destroy any character that succeeds at completing a WoC quest. Until this is changed by ANet, I will not do a single quest more (except on my already-ruined character), and I recommend to ALL AVERAGE players that they do the same: Avoid WoC like the plague.

Two things are particularly annoying about the changes: Vanquishes and farming. Vanquishing is nearly impossible for parties with NPC characters in it once one completes the quest for certain areas. This is particularly true for the areas on Shing Jea Island, where party size is limited to less than 8. And farming is absolutely impossible once the creature makeup changes. The builds are all stolen from player builds, and as such are simply not possible to effectively farm against.

Finally, has anybody asked "What about players who only buy Factions?" They simply cannot compete against builds with skills from all over the game's areas, and they can't use heroes. If one of those players gets sucked in by the story line possibilities, ANet can forget about ever selling them other campaigns or GW2, because they will completely despise ANet for the horrible changes they made.

IMO, there needs to be a way to undo the quests, because the changes are simply unacceptable.

Daddicus 19:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I see your point, but it's not impossible or unacceptable just because your heroes can't do it for you(a good heros etup can, though) 24.130.140.36 19:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Timeline

So, the Ministry of Purity was founded in 1077 AE, but when is Winds of Change taking place ? I remember Zei Ri saying something like "I can't believe it's been years", but the exact quote eludes me. How many years exactly ? 213.166.192.173 13:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I know if you go into Tahanakii Temple theres speech about 7 years passing --Smithy-Star 13:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the answer, but I finally found what I was talking about : "It's hard to believe that the Ministry of Purity has been fighting the Afflicted for nearly two years now. It's amazing how time envelops you when you are devoted to your goals." So I guess it takes place arount 1079 AE, either at the same time as the War in Kryta, or right after that. 213.166.192.173 13:26, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe it's immediately after Hearts of the North, if I'm remembering Miku's end dialogue correctly. ♥ Tyloric ♣ 13:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tyloric is correct - this takes place after HotN (well, the beginning may be during - similar to how the beginning of Factions (Shing Jea) potentially coincides with the ending of Prophecies (Southern Shiverpeaks and/or Ring of Fire). But this is 1079 AE. Konig/talk 22:12, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Are you certain it is 1079AE? We are getting dangerously close to a lot of significant events happening between GW1 and GW2. There is a timeline provided in the GW2 books; "Ghosts of Ascalon" and "Edge of Destiny". From the books; "1078AE: Primordus , the Elder Fire Dragon, stirs but does not awaken. The asura appear on the surface. The Transformation of Dwarves." This is presumably the end of EotN, strange to think it's only been a year in the game since then. Next in line "1080AE: King Adelbern of Ascalon recalls the Ebon Vanguard; Ebonhawke is established." This is only a year away, Ebonhawke is not far away, it seems. "1088AE: Kryta unifies behind Queen Salma", this one bothers me, has Kryta not already unified behind Queen Salma during the WiK? K2K 07:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

It's either 1079 or 1080. Considering this takes place right after HotN which takes place a couple weeks after WiK which is in 1079 (confirmed by Linsey Murdock last year), as such WoC is most likely in 1079. 1078 AE is the events of Guild Wars Eye of the North. Ebonhawke is established due to the recalling of the Ebon Vanguard, which may be influenced partially by the events of the WiK and HotN. The events in 1080 which is said in the timeline will likely be visited in a future Beyond chapter, as it was originally the intention to have such (but it was cut/pushed back when Stumme took over the live team, in favor of Winds of Change and, perhaps, an Elona chapter).

In regards to your question about unifying Kryta - no. The White Mantle is defeated (but not gone) and she has the crown, but if you talk to some of the NPCs in Lion's Arch Keep, they have dialogue stating that there are other threats to Kryta. Also, with Salma only taking the crown recently, after 7 years of a civil war, you can't expect everything to be perfectly fine so quickly, especially when the White Mantle instigate upheaval still. Konig/talk 07:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I, for one, would really enjoy it if we were to witness the founding of Ebonhawk. But, at the same time, it's unrealistic for our PC's to witness every single significant historical event that takes place in their lifetime. Still... it would be awesome. ♥ Tyloric ♣ 13:53, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Trivia

Ministry of Purity inspired by Ministry of Love? I don't remember the book to well since i havent read it in 3 or so years. But is this true/confirmed? || DarkMugen 15:02, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's quite appropriate as an analogy, actually. The Ministry of Love is simultaneously wrong and right as a name - wrong because it is a place of fear and loathing, right because it instills love of Big Brother in its victims. As far as I can see, the Ministry of Purity lacks this contradictory nature in its name - it exists to create and enforce purity within the Empire. Cynique 15:11, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

What I think we will see is the Ministry of Purity being the enforcers of Emperor Usoku's non-human agenda. Although since we are yet to see any sinister inclinations in-game, I think this should be a 'possible' reference to 1984 and not trivia--124.176.92.11 17:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Not to be a downer in the trivia section or anything, but I've never actually read 1984. ^^; John Stumme 19:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

You have to remedy that. Soon. One of the best books of all time. -- Large 19:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, not so good, but with a very important message. As a story, it's okay, I guess, but not one of the greats. The significance of 1984 comes from the message(s) within. Still worth reading, though. 90.34.20.200 22:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Wind of Change sung by Scorpions - Anonymous 17:40, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Stumme previously said that the name "Winds of Change" was not a reference to that. Or anything, in fact. Konig/talk 20:39, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

New Afflicted Builds

Anet....PvXwiki much? --64.12.116.66 15:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Not at all. But i did notice some hero builds, specificly the Afflicted Necromancer. Damysticreaper 16:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

As long as they don't use Panic, I don't mind. Also, did you notice that none of them have a res? Hallelujah! -- Hong 17:02, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

So ANet shouldn't use a build simply because someone else used it first? :O That's silly. ♥ Tyloric ♣ 19:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I'm very glad that the rits don't have FoMF any more. udas 19:38, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Title of the Content

Reference to the group Scorpions with their song "Winds of Change" about berlin wall and the german war?

No. No, no, no, no. We're not getting into this one. It's not a reference, period, end of, EOF. Even if an anet member says otherwise, they're wrong, because you can't reference something that's been well known common culture for decades. -- Armond Warblade 22:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't even have the energy to tell you how wrong you are. --Briar AHOY! 22:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Although Armond's reasoning is wrong, he is right that it's not a reference. Talk:Winds_of_Change/A1#What_binds_the_fabric_together... - "This one isn't a reference to anything beyond that it fits the story of what's happening, and the ramifications that it has." Stated by Stumme. Konig/talk 22:42, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

HM vs NM, take 2

Another question: is there any difference between the hard mode version of the quests, and the normal version done in hard mode? Ie, are the enemy builds different, mobs stronger, etc? -- Hong 10:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Guess they attack faster + have more health - but otherwise I haven't seen any afflicted with resurrects yet - but during the Rescue in Minister Cho's estate or whatever is called there was definitely an extra foe in each mob so that it was 5v4 in HM and not 4v4 as in NM. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 12:15, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

So that was 5v4 with the normal mode quest in HM, or the HM quest? -- Hong 12:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry thought that was obvious.. 5 enemies vs 4 allies [heroes + I] in hard mode. 4v4 in NM. I thought that some of the afflicted mobs during the Cleansing ____ quests were bigger than in NM - I could be wrong though. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 12:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know it's 5v4 in hard mode, but did you have the normal mode quest active? For example, I just did Cantha Courier Crisis in hard mode, as opposed to Cantha Courier Crisis (hard mode), and got the extra boss spawns. I'd like to know if the WoC quests get special attention for their hard mode versions, or if they're the same as the normal mode ones, just with extra rewards. -- Hong 13:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

There's just bigger rewards for the actual HM quests. Nothing else noticed. - Infinite - talk 15:40, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

There's more monsters. I think John mentioned it somewhere on guru. Waar Kijk Je Naar™ 18:27, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Correction @ Winds Of Change Main Page

Under the QUEST part where it says "Lei Jeng has a chain of three quests, beginning with Light My Fire". Must be wrong I started with Cantha Courier Crisis (Ace Loves It)

Pretty obvious they're both available. --Mythoryk.

Cept that Light My Fire was out and done in alot of peoples logs before Mr Falken ever even got to the continent. --Briar AHOY! 22:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I am wrong but I thought Cleansing Bukdek Byway was the prerequisite quest to Light My Fire. 67.163.242.176 23:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The mention of the arms dealer's weapons on the main page as "purple" is irrelevant, since color only effects mod and inscription range on initial drop. Whether collector weapons are blue, purple or gold, isn't pertinent to the playability of that weapon. You can still mod and inscribe these weapons as you could any other weapons released after nightfall (or dropped in subsequent expansions.) --Mythoryk.

Obsidian Flame

I'm liking a lot the story line of WoC, but I'm the only one missing the Obsidian Flame? ministry of purity is cleaning the Am Fah and jade Brotherhood, and verbaly attacking the laziness of the imperial guard, but there was another organization doing cleansing labors in the name of the emperor and that was considered as elite on their jobs they never mention. Shouldn't the guys from the Obsidian Flame appear or be mentioned at some point on the story? Lokheit 14:33, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

You're certainly not the only one missing them. A few folks on Guru2 brought them up. They should be mentioned - tbh, with Assassins in lore being the "balancers of society" I think they'd be one of the first groups to oppose the MoP if they ever become as extremist as Xan is (or for that matter, Usoku). Konig/talk 14:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps they are the ones that spread the thief profession to Tyria. I would imagine it depends on how the story plays out since most of this quest line revolved around cleaning the Afflicted with just a nice sprinkling Am Fah and Jade Brotherhood death in the mix. If the next set of quests target's the other group that was Shiro's little gift to Cantha, the Shro'ken, I can't imagine the Flame showing a huge presence as they are more after guilds. That said they could play a part when the Am Fah are put down as the two groups despise each other and even further if the Ministry goes after the Shadow Blades as well however in both cases the Flame would more likely show as allies to the Ministry seeking to end the group(s) once and for all. 67.163.242.176 16:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Based on one of the encounters - specifically this one - I doubt the Ministry of Purity will care about the Shiro'ken. If they play a role in WoC, then it'll be the Imperial Guard, such as Lei, who gives such quest(s). Konig/talk 16:38, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Worth the Trouble?

Obviously, completing WoC is desirable for those of us who are obsessed with having at least one character that's done everything in the game, or for those who have Canthan characters and want to do some kind of role play kind of thing, etc.

But honestly, the missions and quests of WoC Phase I are boring, repetitive exercises in "go here, kill this" and have a difficulty-to-reward ratio that's woefully off-kilter.

After dealing with enemies that range from level 24 to level 30 (for bosses) over the course of the missions and quests (and especially when you're dealing with these levels and can only take 4 in a party when you go back to the Island), the rewards are a bit stingy.

I'm sure they're all necessary to be able to go into Phase II of WoC, but frankly I find the Phase I missions to be annoying and really not worth the trouble - even in NM.

Stop judging content before it's released. -- Armond Warblade 19:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The OP is commenting on the available content; they are entitled to find it boring and repetitive . They are entitled to evaluate whether the rewards seem stingy compared to the effort. It's not us to judge whether they should believe what they believe (although it's fair to dispute any facts upon which they might base their opinion). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the primary fallicy of the OP is that he/she/it is comparing current content with current rewards and expecting the latter to be worth the former. This is not correct. For instance, the first few content of the War in Kryta was rather boring to most players (sitting through lines upon lines of dialogue and nothing else? :/), and the rewards for going into the wilderness was non-existent for the most part. But in the end? We got weapons for the Hall of Monuments, 6 new miniatures, and some nice goodies on the side.

The rewards given in this part is best compared to Sack of Random Junk and Paper Wrapped Parcels. The still unreleased and completely new skinned weapons, of which we can see the shield and sword on Lei Jeng, are the Oppressor's weapons of WoC. We may get a new hero (completely speculative, but a good place to get an assassin or a ritualist), or other items (I hope no more miniatures though).

Yes, this content update was 70% bore and not worth the rewards, but it's like saying doing the Istan primary quests and missions alone would be worth the reward of the Book of Secrets and access to the Domain of Anguish. Konig/talk 19:38, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Right, that's a fair criticism of the OP's post. Generally, I don't think ANet tries to match effort to reward (look at how little some time-consuming ZBs reward versus how many zoins you can get for quicker ones); they try to match the reward to the story.

On the other hand, a good portion of the first half of the primary 17 quests could have been combined into Cleanse Kaineng area of Afflicted (reward: 1 MC per zone; see me when you're done), which would have knocked off a lot of the tedious zoning/rezoning. Mini Cho's rescue might have had two peasants to save (instead of 3) or just fewer mobs in between. I was pessimistic about the story until getting to Echovald...and enjoyed the foreshadowing. In other words, it didn't have to be 70% bore ...especially after the Live Team heard the response to early WiK. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Those quests had two points to them - firstly, to develop the personality of the MoP individuals (obviously Zei Ri the most, but a bit of Tsuriai to show early-ish on that there are more than just one personality behind them). This would of been harder to do in fewer quests - especially so with Pongmei Valley's quest, and there would of been a lot of flavor in the quest dialogues lost if they could be done in any order or what-have-you. Part of the multiple quests in a story view (still first point to the quests) was to show that we're making a difference - even if you do 3 quests, that's 3 zones void of Afflicted, three zones where you, not the story's progression (like when triggering WiK) made a difference to the world. The second point to those quests would be to remove those tediously annoying afflicted and their explosion that made melee (especially sins) a nuisance more so than now. Konig/talk 20:01, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I was perfectly fine with the afflicted quests that were basically "vanquish this area, I'll come along" because Zei Ri actually gives a damn about what you've done. Every other NPC in the game takes the attitude of "well, you've killed a god or two, plus something close to it, but you can't possibly be helpful in my quest!" -- Armond Warblade 21:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I find the new content to be boring and trivial after all of the hype and the overlong wait for its release. I finished it all within hours of starting it on nm and am not even going to bother with HM because it will be just more of the same - boring content of go here kill this(same thing) over and over. I feel that with all the hype and all of what they promised that this is nowhere near worth the effort. It is however sad. all this time they said they were working on this and ... this is nothing but the same quest repeated 20some odd times. 108.75.73.62 00:29, 12 July 2011 (U

While I agree that the story is a little lacking so far and possibly suffering in the rewards department, we don't know what will be offered when round two rolls around. Maybe saving the rewards we get now will be well worth it in round two? Aside from that, I find the extra challenge offered with the new AI builds refreshing. I'm quite enjoying figuring out better builds and the current (though most likely brief) movement toward playing with other humans and sharing build ideas is much more fun than expecting people to know an already "well known" one. I guess you could say the interaction between players thus far is much improved for the moment.--Holy Semirhage 01:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

@IP 108: I think you're forgetting the fact that this is roughly just 1/3 - 0.333% - of the full Winds of Change. They didn't spend a whole year on this alone (see this topic), and this isn't the full Winds of Change. I don't see why people can't seem to understand this. It's not finished yet folks, and yet you complain that all that they gave us - something that's completely free by the way - is "not enough." Konig/talk 01:52, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

You mean 33.33%. ;) --★KOKUOU★ 01:56, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

To be fair to the critics, within the game, it's not entirely obvious to me that this is only part of the story. As I did the first couple of quests, it felt as if we were heading towards a final confrontation of the worst Afflicted...and then we would be done. There isn't very much foreshadowing that things are going to take a turn towards a plot complication.

In other words, instead of giving people a hard time for being disappointed in the free content, it might be worth recognizing that ANet could have been less stingy with the clues, allowing their characters to quickly realize that this is only a fraction of the Winds of Change story. Developers don't need to do this with a fully released campaign, because everyone knows there's a Big Bad coming at the end (the foreshadowing in Nightfall was particularly good). (In incremental free updates, people don't know what to expect.)

I think there's a lot of fun stuff so far...but, alas, there's also more tedium than I would have predicted. (Accordingly, I'm adjusting my expectations for parts II-III.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I highly disagree TEF; if you do Xan's quests, then it is very clear that its not yet done (the last link's the kicker, as is this) - how much is left is unknown, but its obvious that it isn't finished, and if they're going to comment on the wiki, they could very easily and should read the facts first. I have no pity for complainers, especially those who don't even do their own fact checking. Konig/talk 03:05, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

It seemed pretty obvious that there are several unresolved issues, the first being the afflicted (obviously the more minor loose end). I got the feeling that with each part the story will improve, after all, how much intrigue can you have with the afflicted aside from feeling like ants you're having trouble getting rid of? They did a fairly decent job adding in something new in regards to this first story line (giant afflicted!) and making it feel like it's hard work getting rid of something that was so prevalent in the original storyline. It becomes even more obvious that there's more after doing the last afflicted quest when there's the mention of reconstruction. As I mentioned before, of course it's going to feel lacking, the real meat of the thing is barely picking up! I think the real problem is that people are having trouble picking up all the hints or reading in general. Also, one would think "To Be Continued" means there's more.--Holy Semirhage 03:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Allow me to clarify: as you do the first 7 quests (the most tedious), there's very little that helps clue you in to why it's worth it. As you get farther in, the quests become more varied, special, interesting. And, yeah, you also learn there's more coming. But you have to get past the rescue mission before you start to see diversity... and a taste of things to come.

I've been doing my best not to read anything about WoC until I play through it first... in part, because I prefer being surprised by the story and in part because I'm curious as to how those that don't visit the wiki daily are going to experience things. I don't agree with most of the criticisms, but I understand where people are coming from. I have a couple of friends that haven't played in a while...they came back just for Winds of Change...and played through 4-5 quests before deciding to give it up for a while. I'm sympathetic to that, too.

In other words, the things y'all are saying are obvious aren't obvious...until you get farther. And folks who are disappointed early aren't as inclined to continue and miss out on the good stuff. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

While I see what you're saying, I don't really think they could have changed the afflicted part of the story. It's important that they tie that up. I think we'd hear even more complaining if they tossed in one or two quests to kill a few and call it good. I know I'd be thinking "Really? That was all it took to get rid of them?" Aside from that, if people are giving up after 4-5 quests, well I guess there's no cure for impatience. Their loss? My question is, if they knew about WoC in the first place they must've had more info regarding it, how did they also not know that they weren't releasing everything at once? I mean, it's been pretty clear at just about every site you visit that it's coming in multiple updates and that the story is VERY expansive!!! Sorry that they couldn't hold on just a couple more quests!--Holy Semirhage 16:24, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Lore background

am i the only one who still thinks that quote is highly misplaced? - Zesbeer 07:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, no. But Santax is dead fixed on using quotes from the Eye of the North manual, which truth be told is not only odd for him but silly. IMO, he even made War in Kryta worse looking. Both will be needing a rewrite, I'll probably try to write something up next weekend (next free time I have after tonight and I'm too tired now) if no one else has. Konig/talk 07:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I'm feeling pretty vindicated. It was previously argued by Konig that the second paragraph is not relevant because we don't know if we are going to the forest or the sea in WoC, which we now know to be untrue, and as a bonus, it's referenced directly in dialogue. You argued the third paragraph is irrelevant because you "highly doubt" that WoC would deal with "everything of Cantha", and yet we have travelled to every region on the continent. Some sentences, like "Kaineng still struggles under the burdens of bureaucracy, overpopulation, and crime", are practically hammered into you on every WoC quest. The only paragraph we know not to be relevant now is the fourth one, as I said before.

Konig, you can't afford to be so possessive of the pages that you edit. Your words on my talk page were "there's a difference between "background of a story" and "background of a scenario" - a scenario is the background for a story, a background of a scenario is the history to the story. Important but far from specific enough to be of any help. The EN manuals - what you put up in both cases and what you suggest putting up for when/if we return to Ascalon - are backgrounds of a scenario". What I've done is separate the "lore background" section into "setting" (background of a scenario, as you like to say) and "history" (or background of a story). This means instead of there just being a GW:EN manual quote on the page, or just your original wording, we can both put on the page what we want. It's a compromise, and on a wiki, as with all collaborative projects, compromise is the way things get done. --Santax (talk · contribs) 13:33, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

yes but in this case i would rather have information from a woc manual not the eye of the north manuscript and thus think it is miss placed. and the only place we get information like that is from the woc website. same for any images.- Zesbeer 16:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I still hold to the fact that paraphrasing>quotation in certain situations, such as this one. The second paragraph is relevant in, quite literally, one quest and one or two scenes. We only go outside of Kaineng for, literally, 6 quests - 3 of which are based in Shing Jea and we'll likely be returning there; and only 2 scenes take place in Echovald/Jade Sea (one each). As Zesbeer implied, the EN manual is far less helpful to us than if we were to paraphrase it. I'm not "so possessive of the pages that [I] edit", but I am very possessive in improving quality. Truth be told, the only quotations I'd like to see are of quotations of the very topic from manuals and so forth - in other words, the quotation on this page should belong on and only on Cantha, likewise the quotation on War in Kryta#Lore background should exist on and only on Kryta. If this page gets a quotation, it should be directly about Winds of Change, not something which merely hints at the background. Either way, paraphrasing is better than quotations, as you have said yourself in the past. Konig/talk 20:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

You're making this very difficult for me. I'm trying to compromise here - I'm saying we can have direct quotation in the "Setting" section, and a more detailed summary in the "History" setting. We can both get what we want out of this, but you're going to have to budge first.

As for possessiveness, it's difficult for me to say this without going into GWW:NPA territory, suffice to say that you have to realise that this is a collaborative project - your contributions are going to be mercilessly shuffled, rewritten and even deleted. You seem to consider articles you have put considerable work into "yours" and take it personally when other people change them, case in point: the aggressive comment you made re:An Empire Divided and the petty and irrelevant follow-up to that. The second example I just gave we saw again here, where you were against the rewrite, and why? Because your article on the Mad King, which was written from an in-universe POV and therefore not at all comparable, didn't get accepted by the community. Anyway, it isn't really my place to comment on your editing in general rather than your individual edits, so I'll stop there. --Santax (talk · contribs) 21:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, firstly, I just find the quotation of little relevance and the size of what the quotation takes up can be reduced considerably. As to your other comments - I understand that my contributions will be "mercilessly shuffled, rewritten and even deleted" - I've even done this to my own edits and I am perfectly fine with others doing such, so long as it improves the wiki - which is how I'd expect everyone to be. And I am quite clearly understanding that my ideal of improvement is not the overall idea of improvement, hence why I dropped the "An Empire Divided" rather quickly. I was upset on that because it was undiscussed, and the second comment you linked was me stating my reasoning for being upset over an undiscussed move - that I was yelled at for doing smaller moves and yet others do larger things and what happens to them? Oh yes, nothing. I'd hardly call that "petty" - and you misunderstand the third comment you posted (which I am currently writing up a clarity of), I am not disagreed just because a similar proposal of mine was rejected - rather, the reason why I'm against it in relation to the rejected proposal of mine was that I was intending to state "other people are against similarly minded articles" - and as said it wasn't the sole reason, just a (very minor) reason. So please, stop misunderstanding my "pettiness" as you so love to call it. Konig/talk 21:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) well not going to go into your guy's argument but what i will say is i would much rather have a quote from the woc website then a quote from eotn. and unless there is a valid reason other then "i don't want my edits changed" i will remove it latter this week. its one thing to be bold and make a change that the wiki is better for and no one feels strongly for and another where the issue has been brought up twice now and the same concussions meet.- Zesbeer 16:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

There is no equivalent quote from the WoC website. Even if there were, it is linked from this page, so there is no need to replicate it. --Santax (talk · contribs) 16:34, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Can newish characters do WoC content by joining others?

Hi, can characters that have not finished factions experience WoC content by joining others who can do WoC? Not talking about completing stuff, just taking part. It's not like I'm that interested in the new weapons or whatever. It's about avoiding completing factions all over again :). 60.49.109.125 13:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Like WiK no you cannot. Da Mystic Reaper 14:13, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Not sure at what level you mean, but I joined a Guildie doing a HM mission that I had not even done in NM and we did the mission together (I got no reward, however). So, you can take part, but won't, indeed, get stuff. Wsears 23:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I have to adjust what i said. No you cannot get the quests but if you join someone who has WoC active you do see the dialogues and you will get Woc enemies, even if you havn't completed factions yet. Da Mystic Reaper 22:41, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Rewards

I've calculated the sum of the rewards for normal and hard modes. Can someone verify ?

NM : 46.000 XP, 18K500, 20 comm. HM : 110.000 XP, 34K, 40 comm.

TOTAL : 156.000 XP, 52K500, 60 com.

Joeyw 16:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Might be worth breaking it up by main quests and side quests, since a lot of people don't care about the side quests (which, iirc, offer imperial commendations, not ministry commendations). -- Armond Warblade 21:48, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

At least, note that in the 20 commendations, there are 17 ministerial and 3 imperials. 213.166.199.19 09:08, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Official Quote or not?

We need to start the page with a general overview. We can write it ourselves, we can copy official quotes or we can do both. I do agree that it's pointless to use an official quote, then repeat the same information again. Which leaves two possible, valid options:

• Start off with an official quote, then add any important information not provided by the quote. This is done in most articles about consumables (i.e. Drake Kabob), virtually all outposts, several game mechanics and possibly others.
• Ignore the official quotes and use our own wording. I'm not sure how often this is used.

I favor the first option. Official quotes provide a sense of authenticity, they look nice in the layout, and in many cases someone from marketing has taken great care to find a proper wording, to communicate what ANet feels is important. Using the quote honors their intentions.
Currently the edit-wars have left the page in a state where the introduction lacks all information that would have been provided by the quote, but the quote has been removed. Thus I'll restore the quote for now - if the consensus will be to use our own wording instead of official quotes, we will need to rewrite the introduction before removing the quote. Tub 18:25, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I prefer the quote. It gives the intent and flavor that Anet wants. --JonTheMon 18:50, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that official quotes look nice. I think the template generally looks horribly ugly, especially right at the top of the page, before the opening. Often content of pages on game wikis is technical and idiosyncratic with little room for adding detail outside of notes, trivia and the opening section, which means it is important that these sections are used well. With opening sections, either you add the opening after the quote (e.g. Shiro Tagachi) or you do not bother using your own wording at all (e.g. Kryta). The first option looks horrible on a page, the second option means that things like story developments and other things not covered by the official quote can't be noted in the opening. This particular quote (seen here) doesn't add any new information to the page whatsoever, only marketing speak. We're trying to document the game here, not sell it.

There's also the fact that it's repetitious - why do we need to quote something from a page which is linked right at the bottom of this one?

And finally is an argument made for consistency, not made here but on my talk. The argument is that all other subjects listed at [1] have articles beginning with an official quote, so this should too. The answer to that is that the wiki doesn't consider Beyond content to be the same as any of those other events - that's why they aren't included in {{Special events nav}} or Category:Special events. --Santax (talk · contribs) 19:09, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to shove Beyond content into Special events. Just simply giving examples that when text is put on the official site (or other official places), it is very, very common to see it on the wiki. I agree with adding the quotes to this page, and re-adding the quotes to War in Kryta and Hearts of the North.•••Mora 19:19, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

While I agree with Santax that the quotation template is in dire need of a redesign as it is ugly, I disagree with the "especially right at the top of the page" - imo, that is the sole place it does not look ugly, or rather, the best location for the template. Personally, I do not care whether the quotation is used for that, but I'd rather not have any quotations outside the very top. In essence, I do not agree with Santax on how to structure quotations (as said), and I do not disagree with the addition of the official quotation; in fact, if it weren't for the look of the quotation template I'd say "yes, add the official quote" because it's official and gives no room for doubt or inaccuracy, unlike such a fan-written wiki that this is. Konig/talk 22:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

How do you get rid of the Scavengers?

Ever since I regrettably started WoC there are now Scavengers in the Lagoon on noob island in Factions. How do you get rid of them and set noob island back to the way it was? This is supposed to be noob island, not an elite area. I want to vanquish the area but can't because the foes are too overpowered. It seems WoC is designed for the elite players and their secret builds while the majority of the remaining casual and normal players are left out. -- --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:64.179.119.162 (talk).

Good luck with that. Everyone here seems to think it's perfect as is, that it's "finally something hard enough". See some of the discussions above. --136.142.214.19 19:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried abandoning all WoC quests? Otherwise, you'll probably be stuck with the WiK issue: no normal spawns until you complete WoC --JonTheMon 19:51, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think they will ever go back to the way they were now that you've done WoC. If you just want it back the way it was for the sake of vanquishing, then try vanquishing the areas with another player that has not completes WoC as the party leader. Titan Crow 20:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

WiK was the same. Kryta was flooded with Peacekeeper's and White Mantle making it very hard to complete those areas. When WiK was concluded they all disapeared and only reapeared when an active quest is in your log. But like WiK it might be wise to introduce some NPC's assisting the players in Shing Jae Island, it is indeed very hard for those who lack experience against such foes and to make up for the smaller party you can bring. Some assistance from the Ministery of Purity or the Imperial Guard could be useful for the less experienced players in those areas and possibly when in HM. Da Mystic Reaper 20:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Scavengers are currently permanent replacements for all occurrences of Afflicted--as such they PROBABLY won't ever be changed, and the only way they would be removed is if the next two parts do so. 69.121.219.6 23:14, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

If, after WoC, there really are no more afflicted, there goes one of the few sources of Monstrous eyes/claws. --136.142.214.19 18:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

There's still the missions, that for obvious reasons, remain unchanged. Zen Daijun has low level afflicted, if you can even get those items from low level afflicted. I know a lot of the afflicted missions are annoying, but better than nothing I guess. Magi 22:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe you are simply out of luck. As stated above, it appears that both vanquishing and farming the changed areas are impossible (or close to it) if one has completed a WoC quest for that area. If one has merely started the quest for that area, abandon it. But, for areas where you already finished the quest, ... :(.

Daddicus 19:58, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

LOL @ "never before seen" Imperial weapons

This is ANet-speak for MORE RESKINS. 99.140.200.227 23:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

No, actually, that's not true. The weapons currently available are Purity weapons, not Imperial weapons. Imperial weapons are currently 100% unknown (though the sword and shield is suspected to be currently wielded by Lei Jeng, which are unique). Konig/talk 02:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

And considering how the Oppressor Weapons were completely unique skins themselves, I don't know where you're getting the "MORE" part of that accusation from. :D 69.121.219.6 15:08, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I think instead of the Purity reskin they should have given us Plagueborn weapons. The Afflicted are dead and have no need for weapons, lol. Ravendark

Oh, man. I hadn't thought of that. I better finish my plagueborn weapon collection before I finish these quests or else I'll never be able to get them again. --Musha 05:16, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Afflicted will still remain in missions. Konig/talk 05:39, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

The End of the Jade Sea?

By the time Winds of Change is said and done, will this mark the end of the Jade Sea as we know it? By the time we visit Cantha in Guild Wars 2, is the Jade Sea going to be just another large body of water? How would some of the wild life that's adapted to the Jade Sea survive, like the giant turtles the Luxons use? I actually liked the Jade Sea as it is now. Was a pretty interesting place to explore. Any official word for ArenaNet? --74.133.88.159 05:48, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Far too large of a change in art to merit that, imo. At most, we'll likely only see some (more) pools of water. But no official word from Anet either way. If that is done, and that's a big if, then it'll be so only for those who completed WoC and, in turn, cannot include any outposts. So places like Aurios Mines has to stay solid, and considering how low that is, it's unlikely that even most of the Jade Sea will liquify. Konig/talk 05:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

But would it be too large of a change in art for Guild Wars 2? I figured we wouldn't see the Jade Sea in the first Guild Wars transformed into a large body of water, the question was mostly directed towards the Jade Sea in Guild Wars 2. --74.133.88.159 06:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I do believe we won't be seeing Cantha at all in GW2, it becomes isolated and doesn't exactly welcome visitors. - Reanimated X 06:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

For GW2? If we return to Cantha in GW2 at some point, it's bound to be a sea again. That's been hinted at since Eye of the North came out (via the manual). It certainly won't be happening by the time of Winds of Change's end, or even by Usoku's reign (~60 years post GW1 iirc), otherwise gw2:the Movement of the World would make mention of it. We won't be going to Cantha in the initial release, and there's absolutely no indication of us returning ever at this point (the devs even said back in 09/10 that they have done absolutely no storymaking for Cantha post its isolation). Konig/talk 07:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I hope we eventually go back to Cantha - I wouldn't mind seeing the Ruins of Fort Aspenwood, Unwaking Waters liquefied etc. I assume that after all the siege turtle attacks over the years and the Jade Sea liquefying will cause FA to be ruined in the future. Magi 03:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

It actually makes a lot of sense since they hyped up underwater exploration for gw2. I'd be surprised if they didn't have you visit the ruins under the sea, harvest temple would make a good underwater dungeon :P. --Stratzvyda 07:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)