Talk:Winds of Change/A4

Anet dropped the ball on this one

Is Winds of Change really worth it? So far it seems rather monotonous in its content. And with the addition of over-powered foes it just is no fun. There are two things that really cause WoC to lose its value. First of all, newer players struggle too much with it causing them to give up and maybe even leave the game. I know many players who simply don't like WoC, haven't done the HM quests and don't really care to do them or repeat any of the quests, even some of the nm ones. The second thing is players that have been involved with GW over the years are really just waiting for GW2. Many are just looking for filler content, maybe even something new, to pass the time until GW2 comes out. Players don't want to have to grind over and over and change everything just to do some painfully difficult quests that pay little rewards. Both of these combined make for less players doing WoC, especially HM quests where players are struggling to get help and complete. I understand there is that small percentage of hardcore players that want super hard foes and places, but they are not the majority. Anet can create some super hard mode to appease them but let everyone else in the game enjoy themselves and the content. I am no pro but I do know several players who are and even they don't like WoC much. I sure hope Anet reevalutes this content. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User::65.60.218.213 ]] ([[User talk::65.60.218.213 |talk]]).

nice rant also i hurd woc isnt done yet. also On talk/discussion pages, please sign your comment by typing four tildes (~~~~) Thanks,- Zesbeer 03:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Every individual will always "drop the ball" for at least one other person with every action. Keep that in mind folks. Konig/talk 03:39, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I didn't think the first phase was that bad. Sure, the quests were repetitive and at times annoying, but the quests after the afflicted cleansing were interesting, and they showed the true nature of the ministry, which was pretty neat. I think a lot of people don't realize there is 3 parts to this content. The difficulty was decent - I really only had problems when I over-aggroed. I look forward to the next 2 phases. Magi 03:50, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, ball has been dropped all the way off a cliff. So far, rather disappointed -- some nasty missions in NM that become stupidly difficult in HM (aside from gimmick builds requiring special chars which you might not have) and no really good drops. Cantha has generally sucked when it came to drops (quality and quantity) all along, and no improvement here: So, nothing like confessor orders, royal gifts, minipet drops (unless these show up in the later add-ons). The 'never before seen imperial' weapons better be damn good, and not screwing rangers YET AGAIN (no envoy bows at all, destroyer bow is hideous, no animation in oppressor bows, etc etc etc) (have you guessed my main char is a ranger, yet?). If you're going for survivor, avoid this update like the plague. Wsears 01:28, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, if you have not finished vanquishing Cantha, definitely DO NOT even start this chapter! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Wsears (talk).

I wish there had been some notification of this before I started WoC. Now this has made life a whole lot more difficult up my getting more titles on my char. Khukuri 20:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, a lot of people have said this, and I think it's stupid that they'd launch it with something like this present. I hope there's a fix soon. ~FarloTalk 21:36, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh noes, suddenly GW finally requires skill again! -- Armond Warblade 22:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't care about that, infact it rocks, but when there's no definite way to know if it's on or off and that they're permanent (at least for now) kind of sucks. ~FarloTalk 22:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The difficulity is perfect, the problem like WiK in the beginning is that you can't turn it off untill it's completed. The WoC mobs apearing before you even start it however is outright annoying to those who have less experience. The biggest problem so far is the serious lack of reward, the purity weapons are ridiculous and the enemies have no special or unique drops of their own making it even less worth and more annoying to fight them. Introducing green weapons or trophies for an other form of reward would be all thats needed to make a whole lot of people complain a whole lot less. Da Mystic Reaper 22:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Not only is it impossible to turn off, but if a single WoC player is in the party, you'll encounter the tougher mobs, even if your toon is less than L20, even if it hasn't completed Factions (e.g. Mayhem in the Market: the Undercity has the new Afflicted). Adding Greens and new minis might allow some to enjoy a more substantive reward for their efforts, but it doesn't address the reasonable concerns of people who just want to play through the game (or those who decide they don't like WoC). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Part 2 and 3

I see it keeps getting stressed how we're only at part 1 of 3. What's the info on the other two parts? Haven't read much but I thought we've got the number of quests we were promised, the last one ends with 'to be continued', but when? How much more is it actually to this but the imperial weps? -Cursed Angel 16:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

In short: We don't know. We know there's 3 parts, and that the first 20 quests is part 1; we also know that all of WoC should (bar unexpected situations) be released within 2011 (thanks to the FAQ on the main site). Outside this and what you said, we don't know much. Konig/talk 17:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

New Am Fah Mobs... even if not done Winds of Change yet

I was going out to cap Weapon of Quickening from the Afflicted Hakaru just now. No afflicted, only tough mobs of Am Fah. I haven't 'cleansed' Pongmei Valley yet, although I have started Winds of Change by doing the first quest (and first quest only). The mobs reminds me of the WiK mobs in diversity and builds, so I'm guessing it's due to WoC, but there should be afflicted for me to cleanse, right? (I'm not having any quests in my log, just saying that there should not yet be new mobs there, assuming my WoC hypothesis is right).

I tried both GW wikis, but I can't find anything on the subject. As far as they're concerned, the Afflicted Hakaru still lives in Pongmei until you 'cleanse' it. Any thoughts? 83.81.245.78 06:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: I checked with a character who didn't finish Factions yet. For her, Hakaru is still there. When I take both characters out together in a party, the afflicted disappear again and the Am Fah elite mobs reappear. When I take the second character out after that, Hakaru is back, so it didn't screw something up for her like pre-searing Gwen and her tapestry shred sequence, at least. So I'm thinking WoC is slightly bugged in the sense that the city areas (or at least Pongmei Valley) changes after starting WoC, instead of after completing cleansing an area. Presumably, some afflicted reappear when I get to the quest Cleansing Pongmei Valley, but I can't check that yet.

If it's something else, I have no idea what, but the new Am Fah are too similar to the WiK mobs. I hope this bug will be amended, since I need to vanquish Pongmei yet... I think I can do it anyway, played around with those Am Fah a bit, but it makes the work significantly harder! 06:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

EDIT 2: Just to note, I didn't do Rescue at Cho yet either, before anyone asks (since I read that that affects the spawns as well).83.81.245.78 06:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Went to check with a character that has completed Factions (Imperial Sanctum), but has never received a Winds of Change quest and the Afflicted Hakaru does spawn. --Silver Edge 07:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

"With the completion of certain quests, some explorable areas are altered. The altered explorables and their associated quests are as follows: "

Every quest in the WoC affects the spawns in at least one area. I suspect that as soon as you start the first quest, all the areas with afflicted are altered in some way, but I don't think we've finished documenting the exact circumstances in which that happens. i.e. the phrasing in the article is somewhat misleading. Obviously, if you have Cleansing Pongmei Valley in your log, you're going to see different spawns there, too. But there could be other factors triggering a change.

In any case, this isn't a bug; it's intended by the storyline that the mobs change (since you are living in the world after Shiro's defeat). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 07:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

It could possibly be caused by having a Winds of Change quest in your quest log. Try entering Pongmei Valley with no Winds of Change quests active. --Silver Edge 07:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Silver Edge: I don't have any WoC quests in my log after finishing the first, so that can't be it.

Tennessee Ernie Ford: Why would Pongmei Valley change to post-afflicted mobs, when I still have to do the actual Cleansing Pongmei Valley quest for which the afflicted will be (back) in that area? That doesn't make sense.83.81.245.78 11:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Strickly speaking, No, it doesn't make sence. But, if you look at the new WoC content as several years after the story told through the Factions campaign, then by merely accepting a quest from the new content, you are jumping years in GW time and a number of changes will be implemented accross Cantha. Some of these changes may be undone or changed further by completeing sunsequent WoC quests but you will never be able to go back to the Cantha of pre Woc (not on that Char at least). Titan Crow 12:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

That is of course absolutely correct. In fact, after only Cleansing Bukdek Byway, i.e. not doing much except starting WoC (and thus jumping ahead), I can say that Sunjiang explorable has also new Am Fah, Shadow's Passage has new Jade Brotherhood, where Ako has been replaced by Tuile the Club and I have seen no change so far in The Undercity, Shenzun Tunnels, Wajjun Bazaar (with friendly Am Fah still...) and funnily enough in Bukdek Byway itself (at least not around the bosses Jin and Wing).

Winds of Change Avoidance

How does one make edits to the main pages such that people with different opinions can't undo the changes? I've had two posts removed or edited, presumably because they cautioned players to avoid Winds of Change if one wished to perform certain tasks in those areas (vanquishing, farming, or mapping).

honestly it's not impossible, what you said was that it couldn't be done which isnt' true at all, it's just a lot harder, don't make it sound like it's completely undoable, "only a sith deals in absolutes" 24.130.140.36 20:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

If people have different opinions, why should your's be the way it ends up? Given that, the other way isn't always right either. Disagreements get resolved by discussing the changes. Here, in this case. --JonTheMon 20:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

On the contrary, "impossible" seems to be exactly the right word. I tried making changes twice, and both were altered or removed within minutes by someone called Tennessee Ernie Ford. "Elitist" doesn't even scratch the surface when describing people who would do that. There was no discussion and only one lame explanation. Is this person a moderator or something?

It would see to me that, assuming it is somehow controversial, the proper action would be to cull the post, but save/post a copy for discussion here.

Players need to be warned that a portion of their game is going to be irrevocably ruined by taking actions that otherwise seem innocuous. WiK reset the zones back to their original spawns when you completed it. WoC makes the changes permanent. Did any of you happen to take in the daily vanquish of Minister Cho's Estate yesterday? Most people were demanding that their teammates NOT have WoC active or completed on the zone. Clearly, there is a huge problem. But, trying to tell people about this set of issues seems to be a forbidden subject. At least to some.

There NEEDS to be a HUGE warning for players on this subject. I and my daughter have ruined our characters that we always play with together. They're useless now in Cantha. We've played together for a year, and now we can't play them (pve) at all in 12 areas in Cantha. Very sad, but what's worse is that nobody is able to let customers know this. See the next section, though, for some possible movement on the part of the very guy who deleted my comments. Daddicus 05:24, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"WiK reset the zones back to their original spawns when you completed it. WoC makes the changes permanent." Phase two and three of WoC haven't been released yet. Once they have been released, the zones will probably be reset when you finish the final WoC quest (similar to WiK). And read the note below the "Save page" button at bottom of the edit window: "Please note: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." --Silver Edge 08:14, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Your comment is irrelevant. Unless ANet specifies that after phase 3 all will be back as it was, you are referring to an unknown future. Actually, if ANet responds the way people here have reacted, it will probably be worse. I can only hope they don't. Daddicus 00:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

When do the spawns change

I think we need to update the article to explain that completing Cleansing Bukdek Byway irreversibly changes spawns in all dozen WoC zones. The exact nature of the spawns depend on your toon's progress through the storyline, but apparently, you cannot do anything to restore the pre-WoC versions.

According to the current article, spawns only change as you progress through various parts of the storyline. However, players are reporting a different experience. According to many (and documented by User:Axis in this post):

• Once you finish the main storyline, spawns are permanently changed.
• If a new player takes Zei Ri's first quest and drops it, spawns are Factions-normal.
• After completing the first quest, you cannot restore any of the affected areas to their original spawns:
  • Explorables become post-WoC areas after completing the quests listed in the article
  • There are also during WoC spawns before that. Sometimes the new afflicted supplement existing spawns; sometimes, the new builds replace the old ones (e.g. Am Fah/pre-WoC → Am Fah/WoC).
• Further, unlike in War in Kryta, bringing ineligible player toons does not suppress the storyline; the WoC-foes still affect the explorables.

Unless someone can provide supporting evidence otherwise, I will update the relevant section accordingly. (This isn't meant to start a discussion about whether this is fair or good or whatever — the idea is to document what people should expect. There are plenty of existing threads to discuss people's opinions about the spawns.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:59, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

While I'm glad you realize something needs to be done, you're missing the main point: Average players (or ANY player who doesn't have a fully decked-out character) simply cannot progress vanquishing or mapping titles after the changes.

Also, farming is out of the question in an altered zone.

Finally, what about capping elites? That title track might also be affected, if any changed zone has an elite skill only available from that zone. Those bosses no longer exist. Unless ANet carefully thought it through (which seems incredibly unlikely, given the nature of the other changes they made), those titles aren't just "impossible for less-than-perfect characters or players"; they're simply impossible, period. We can't tell yet whether they thought of this, because nobody has tried to cap those elites and reported about it.

I agree with keeping all of your bullets. But, you need more of them. These cautions need to be HUGE red flags to players. What ANet did is simply unacceptable, but it's far more unacceptable to simply gloss over it with a few non-controversial bullet points. These are HUGE, game-breaking changes, and they need warnings commensurate with the level of the changes. Daddicus 05:37, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, are you an owner or moderator of the Wiki? If so, fine, but if not, what gives you the right to remove or alter posts without discussion? Daddicus 06:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the issue here is you're exaggerating a bit much. "Average players (or ANY player who doesn't have a fully decked-out character) simply cannot progress vanquishing or mapping titles after the changes." That just isn't true, and especially not when it comes to cartography. Yeah, it makes it significantly harder, but you're blowing it WAY out of proportion. There's also already a note on the page that warns people about this, although perhaps it should be made a little more obvious (perhaps with its own obvious section on the main page and some bolded text) since this can pretty easily catch people off guard with no warning at all. Pjwned 08:19, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

You can still cap the same elites in the same explorable areas. The Afflicted bosses are replaced with human bosses. E.g. The Afflicted Miju = Ming the Judgment; The Afflicted Hakaru = Uris Tong of Ash. --Silver Edge 08:14, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

This is good to hear. However, since the Wiki doesn't yet contain this information, there's no way for a player to know that those elites are still available. However, that's probably just a matter of time. Thanks for this info! (I tried to find it on the Wiki before I posted that, but couldn't find it -- probably due to the newness of this.) Daddicus 05:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

There does need to be more information in regards to the level of change - and the arguement of the (frankly stupid) increase in difficulty at Vanquishing these areas. Not only that, but due to the fact that taking a non-WoC toon doesn't reset the spawns, helping low levels in ANY of those areas is now impossible; especially with those who aren't level 20 (the normal mode spawns are actually harder than the original hard mode spawns in some areas) Snowmane 16:18, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

So, if I'm exaggerating, then to prove this I'm sure you yourself played as an average player or with an incomplete character, correct? Wait, you can't be an average player because you've been posting here, not something an average player would do. So, you must be calling me a liar due to you having played with an average (incomplete) character and completing the zones. Correct?

Well, even so, you're wrong. I've tried, and I've failed. Miserably. I've failed to even make it across a modified zone at all, let alone to all of the edges to scrape. I simply cannot do it. Heck, I can't even get the quest at Minister Cho's completed. It may be that I'm simply not good enough as a player. But, I'm probably way above average, so an average player or a player whose character is less than top-of-the-line is going to have a much harder time than even I had (and, as I said, my trips have been complete busts).

As far as I'm concerned, that character is done. He was my main character on that account, but now he's hopelessly outmatched by the game, and possesses no way to improve sufficiently to counter the changes. I thank God I didn't make the same mistake on my GWAMM candidate. I shudder to think what would have happened had I done that. Four years, down the drain.

But, my experience is true, and I'm saying that people need to be warned. Sure, not the 5% who have maxed everything in the game, but the typical players. They NEED to be warned. In HUGE RED LETTERS if available. Because if they start this and are not exceptionally good players, they're going to destroy the future of any character they make the attempt on. That's exactly the kind of thing a WIKI should be highlighting. Anybody who played through WiK is going to expect that things will be put back to normal when WoC is completed, but they will be rudely shocked. And, if this WIKI doesn't warn them sufficiently, then we will be partly responsible for the damage they have done to their accounts. Daddicus 05:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I probably shouldn't even reply to you directly at this time, because I'm extremely angry at you. But, I'll try to be civil:

You want evidence that more needs to be stated. Well, I was in the Zaishen Vanquish of Minister Cho's a couple days ago. A large majority of the posts looking for groups were demanding "no Winds of Change". Many even said "If you have WoC, you will be booted." (I'm not sure how they would figure that out, but that's another issue.) Anyhow, that's evidence. I watched maybe 20 groups come and go, and only two were accepting players who had WoC active.

For further corroboration, the team here should watch on the day of the next Zaishen Vanquish of a WoC-affected zone, and see whether this was a singular event, or rather is the pattern. I suspect the latter will be the case. (I know it will be for me, but that's only one person.) Daddicus 05:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe this would be Morostav Trail on Tuesday of this coming week (2 Aug, 2011). Daddicus 06:01, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Alright then, let's see if we can calm down, avoid GWW:NPA, and analyze why your posts were changed.

Disregarding the actual difficulty of the new content, your first edit was somewhat opinionated and made it seem like the zones were technically impossible to vanquish, and that's why TEF simplified it to say it was "more challenging to combat than the original ones.", and currently, there are a few warnings on the Wiki that mention

Your reply edit was completely unneeded and just tries to push a voice on the main page without discussing it.

In response to this: The entire point of a wiki is to avoid a "lock-down" (or at least one achievable by normal user means) and allow free-flowing thought and change by numerous points of view. "such that people with different opinions can't undo the changes?" That is absolutely not the right stance to take on a website like this, and makes me think that you don't care about seeing others' opinions voiced.

You're demanding that "They [the players] NEED to be warned. In HUGE RED LETTERS if available." and refuse to look at the ideas and thoughts of others, just bashing them about how it's impossible (which, I admit, it is REALLY hard).

In some of your following posts, you mentioned "elitism" and how editing a post to remove opinionated material is somehow wrong, or that anyone that posts on the wiki isn't anywhere near average. While I admit, most of the frequent editors here are perhaps a step above the quote-unquote "average" player, I'd make a solid bet that over half of the current and active GW player-base has at least one character that is setup with a decent build, heroes, and gear, otherwise I doubt they'd complete Factions, much less get to the Shing Jea sections of WoC. (Maybe not FoW armor or anything, but at least max rating and a perfect weapon set.)

Finally, your anger towards certain users that are merely trying to collaborate and make the Wiki the best it can be is a bit extreme. After all, it's a game, and if you're unwilling to calm down and listen to others and work together to progress, then what's the point of an MMO?

I'd suggest following Armond's advice on your talk page and then see where we can go, I know that helps me a lot. Thanks for reading, and I hope you can come back and be a helpful contributor to the wiki, we always need more :D ~FarloTalk 07:51, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Changes to Winds of Change article

(Reset indent) The original question was whether anyone had a different experience from Axis' experimentation...and the answer appears to be, no. Accordingly,

• I updated the page to include a Getting started section which is more explicit about noting that spawns change as soon as you complete Cleansing BB.
• Both Getting started and Changes to explorable area explicitly notes that once you start, you cannot return to the original spawns.
• Based on Axis notes (and posts by others), I added to Changes to ...areas room to indicate the two types of spawns present in various areas: the before and after cleansing versions, both of which are largely different from what would be expected in original Factions. (Since I've done only limited testing, I left most of the table as tbd.)
• (after writing this) I added a note reminding people that they can still cap the various elites in each area (each boss is replaced by another in the same location with the same elite).

I've seen several reports that even including a newbie Factions character in the party, the spawns will still be WoC. If that's the case, we should also note that. There's also an explicit report on the bug forums that the Scavengers in Minister Cho's Estate are more numerous and slogful than intended. So, we should expect an update at some point that will fix at least that area. (Whether ANet addresses other concerns raised here... is a topic for a different page.)

It's clear that not everyone will be satisfied by these changes, but I hope that they go a long way towards providing correct information without editorializing (towards any point of view). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:06, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Sweet, the table should be useful. I've done WoC completely, so I'll skim over the zones and see what changes I notice, if any, I'm not quite as familiar with Kaineng as other zones, partially because it sucks. I really hope Anet is actively looking for a solution, because they terribly tested this content and the potential problems with it before launch. ~FarloTalk 08:11, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I originally made a post on the Sunjiang District (Winds of Change) page a few days ago, but I figure my reply to it fits here: I went to vanquish Sunjiang District (I have completed Cleansing Sunjiang in NM, have not started Cleansing Bukdek HM, and haven't finished all the NM quests yet either) so I was going to take note of the foes that appeared there... however, there were a small number--maybe two mobs--of afflicted still there, all with their newer WoC builds. I had two other humans in my party, but I don't know their status in WoC. What confuses me is that I have been vanquishing around Kaineng for a couple weeks and there have been zero afflicted spawns anywhere; this includes Pongmei Valley, which comes after Cleansing Sunjiang (and I have done Cleansing Pongmei in NM). We VQ'd Pongmei just before Sunjiang (same exact party) and there were no afflicted in Pongmei, only their Am Fah replacements. For reference, I was party leader in all of these vanquishes that I've mentioned, and I have completed up to Cleansing Silent Surf NM on that character, and as I said haven't even started the HM versions. The fact that the afflicted still spawn in Sunjiang District seems like a bug to me, however, judging from the IP's post in "New Am Fah mobs" above, perhaps the areas without any afflicted that I've been seeing are the during WoC spawns, and it just so happens that Sunjiang has some afflicted spawn during WoC but not as many as in the quest. Edit: sorry, forgot to sign. 69.121.219.6 15:47, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion a note should be (specifically) made that taking a non-WoC character in the party doesn't have non-WoC spawns - as I mentioned above, it makes helping other players harder, and I feel it needs special mention rather than the (in my opinion fairly vague) comment about no way to return spawns to their original. I would add it... but not entirely familiar with how to edit pages yet and don't want to make a mistake. Snowmane 15:54, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

On the technical side, the day of the Minister Cho's Zaishen Vanquish there were people who had mixed WoC and non-WoC characters, and conflicting results occured. In fact we tested all of the possibilities, and found there was no consistent (and obvious) pattern. I myself went in with a team of one account that had WoC changes made in that zone and a second account that had not even accepted the first quest. I tried with both toons at the top of the party list (in case the inconsistencies we were seeing were based on who the party leader was), but I could not get rid of the WoC spawns. I used GWx2, though, so perhaps results would be different from two humans who were operating on different IP addresses. (My experiments were with two accounts and two heroes, from zero to two on each account, to test all of the permutations. I tried with different party leaders, but I didn't exhausively test all of the hero possibilities under the different leadership scenarios.)

Anyhow, when I went in with an all-human party, we HAD someone who had WoC, but the spawns were not WoC spawns. However, the same group of humans (minus 1) tried just minutes earlier, and we got WoC spawns. After we saw them, one person 'fessed up and left. We replaced him, but unbeknownst to us, there was still someone with WoC present (he told us later, partway through). Yet that second time, we got original non-WoC spawns! There were other groups, too, that experienced the same inconsistent behavior. There did not seem to be any pattern I could discern, but I can only legitimately say I listened in on maybe 30 conversation "threads" that day. (It's hard to keep track of them; they all blend together in chat sessions.)

This is why I mentioned checking the next WoC-affected Zaishen Vanquish before publishing changes (although you can put up the non-controversial stuff immediately, I think). The people there were all abuzz with the various possiblities, and it seems likely to occur again. If the people here were to focus on listening in on those all-chat conversations, perhaps a pattern could be gleaned. But, until we know the pattern, all we can safely say is that the probability is very high that having one or more WoC characters present will cause WoC spawns. However, the probability is not 100%.

One last note: I didn't have the capability to test this myself, and I didn't think to ask on the Cho's vanquish day, but any or all of these could be the reason(s) for the inconsistency:

What if it is consistent for people who have completed the WoC quest for that particular area, but have not completed the whole set?

Or, what about people who have taken the quest for this zone, but have not completed that quest? (i.e. they're exactly positioned on this zone in their travels through the quest chain.)

Alternately, what if a person has started WoC, but has not yet gotten up to that particular zone in their WoC progress?

Yet again, is it different for people who have completed all of WoC vs those who have only gotten partway through?

Finally, what about people who have accepted the very first WoC quest, but have not proceeded beyond simply taking the quest?

I could easily envision any or all of the above showing different results, which could explain the anomalous behavior we saw that day. Daddicus 01:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't word that last section very well. Please consider this a replacement of everything from the paragraph starting "One last note:" through my signature, including all of the bullet points. If anybody knows how, I would be grateful if you could put strikethrough through all of those lines, or explain how to me. Thanks!

One last note: I wasn't able to test all of these, but there are eight possible states a character can be in:

• Character has not completed Factions.
• No WoC content has been accessed in any way.
• First WoC quest has been taken, but not completed.
• First WoC quest has been taken and then abandoned (before completion).
• First WoC quest has been completed (the remaining line items all assume this one).
• Quest for this zone has been taken, but not completed.
• Quest for this zone has been completed, but whole chain is not finished yet.
• WoC is completely finished.

Given that any combination of the above could be present in a vanquishing group (except the top bullet), I could easily envision any or all of the above contributing to the different results we saw that day. Daddicus 02:23, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

To strike-through text, use the <s> and </s> tags on opposite ends of the text you want to strike, which I have done for the comment you wanted. Also, although unlikely, there is the possibility of being at any stage of any of the quests in either NM or HM, so there are quite a few more than eight possible reasons for the inconstancy, and maybe it is a problem or bug of some sort that A-Net hadn't expected. ~FarloTalk 02:55, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Fussy point: a vanquishing group can contain a first-bullet character (not finished Factions) provided that another character on the same account has finished Factions. Cynique 03:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Right on both counts! Thanks! And, thanks for the tip, too!!! Daddicus 03:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) One more thing on editorializing: By not including any statement at all about the extreme difficulty the changes have given some players, you yourself are editorializing by omission. Daddicus 04:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The Wiki's purpose is to document and create a database for the game, as stated here:"the purpose of this site is to document Guild Wars" and here: "Our goal is to become a complete set of documentation for Guild Wars". With this in mind, that we're here to create a factual reference guide for the game, then "difficulty", a very opinionated aspect of the game, doesn't have a place here, but rather in the numerous flaming threads on GWGuru. Also, there is, and has been since you first posted, a note about the increased difficulty. "Most players find that most of the new spawns are more challenging to combat than the original ones". Just because it isn't as big or ATTENTION GRABBING as you may want it to be doesn't mean that it's not stated or has been omitted for some malevolent reason. Please realize that I'm not trying to say there isn't a significant difficulty change, because there is, but instead that the views on difficulty don't have a place in the Main namespace. ~FarloTalk 05:40, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Resolving disputes

OK, I did some research on a few fronts, and I want to put them out for more comments.

The first front is authority: Who has the authority to make or force changes to a page? This authority is left to the community at large. If there are disputes about content, then the community should try to achieve something that attains concensus.

Of extreme importance is the "One Revert Rule", or 1RR. If anybody doesn't know what that is, look up the policies page for it. Essentially, each person can revert a change only once for each section of a page. Instead, community members are encouraged to go to the talk page an hash things out until a concensus is attained (or, proves impossible). I didn't know this, and I almost violated this rule.

If an issue cannot be resolved by concensus, the policy says, "If, after trying and trying to reach a consensus one way or the other, the only thing both sides can agree on is that you can't agree, the best course is usually to let the page reflect both, when possible. In the end, this lets the reader decide what to think."

On the other front, I went back and counted those who thought the content was too hard and said so, and those who did not and said so. My count is 8 to 8. I saw another 3-4 who might have an opinion one way or the other, but haven't really said it (yet).

Given the above two research points, I would say the right answer is to post both opinions, and mark them both disputed. Comments? Daddicus 06:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

One more thing: I came across a "no personal attacks" item referred to in several places. And, when I agreed with a previous poster about a name he called people, I violated that rule. I also continued the attack for quite some time after that. For those, I apologize and beg forgiveness. By the grace of God, I also promise I won't do it again.

If desired, I will remove or strike-through the offending statements. I'll leave that up to the ones I called names. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Daddicus (talk).

The 1RR is always good to follow, it prevents a lot of drama and edit-wars. Sadly, I don't think the 16-20 people who have voiced some opinion is a reliable sample of the Wiki community or the game community. Since consensus in this case is either a near-tie or useless, depending on whether you agree with my last sentence or not, we're left with trying to present both sides.

Oddly enough, we've already done exactly that. One side (yours) is to put up warnings about the increased difficulty and the other is to not emphasize play-style opinions. With the comment on the page now, I think it comes near enough to the center of that spectrum, that is, mentioning it. Also, I can't see a way it's possible to put both sides on the page. I don't think anyone here will argue against the new areas being significantly harder than the original, so the debate seems to be around how much difficulty, as I stated above, an opinionated aspect of the game, should influence the presentation and wording of the article. The only way I could see both sides being on the page would be something like(and please, for the love of all that is intelligent don't put this): "While some argue that the Winds of Change content dramatically increasing are difficulty is note-worthy, others believe that it's place isn't on this article." As you can see, any statement based around the actual argument of "Should difficulty and warnings/opinions about it be included on mainspace Wiki articles?" has no place in an actual article, but instead on talk pages, such as here.

Expanding from that example, the Wiki is a place to document the game and provide a clean, easily accessible place for users to gain knowledge about Guild Wars. It is Not a player-guide, and (at least I) feel that those topics belong on the talk pages, which are meant for discussion, not the article itself.

On another note about your first point; Not one person on this (or any wiki presumably) has the authority to enforce his own contribution as the final edit, and wikis are designed to function specifically this way. For this debate, not nearly enough people are contributing to reach any kind of consensus. While this does mean you have the ability to change what's said, I think re-writing what you had before TEF's change would constitute violation of the 1RR, and until some formal policy/guidelines discussion and changes occurred, the general idea is to present the details and knowledge of the game in a straight-forward and factual manner. ~FarloTalk 07:27, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) About your NPA violation, I don't think it was a strong enough offense to warrant any further action aside from an apology, which you made very clear, so thanks for that. According to Gww:npa#Initial_options, "the best way to respond to an isolated personal attack is not to respond at all", and I think that's been done here. The name you said isn't too offensive, and no one seems pissed, so again I think it can be safely dropped. :) It's really nice to see people reading the policies and taking it upon themselves to correct any mistakes they may have made. *applause* ~FarloTalk 07:27, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

My feeling is exactly the opposite of yours, but that's because I'm defining the problem differently. In my opinion, any person who starts WoC without having a VERY seasoned character and play capability to match is dooming the Factions campaign for a very long time on that character. It's not an opinion at all; it's a plain fact, because it has already happened to me (and several others who posted above).

I won't violate the 1RR rule, especially now that I know about it. This is despite the fact that TEF already has by posting again without concensus. However, I'm not going to worry about that, because something needed to be said ASAP. But, I'm looking for more. I wish some of the others who were stonewalled earlier (in their attempts to get something written) had stuck around. They quit in frustration. For better or worse, I'm very stubborn, so I keep posting (in talk, though). edited to strike my ill-informed comment about TEF. My apologies, TEF; I shouldn't have even said it. Daddicus 23:00, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

IMO, this issue is HUGE, and is a game-breaker for I would guess half the players. Fortunately for most of those, they're idle and are not going to see the changes for some time. But, it pains me to think of their experience in the game when the day comes where they learn about it.

I would like to see a second comment, perhaps marked disputed, that says something like "There are some players who believe that the changes make Factions itself extremely difficult to play once WoC is begun."

Another way to say it would be to create some kind of scale, and say "Opinions as to the difficulty of the changes range from mild to extreme." I don't like that wording, but perhaps someone else can write what I mean better. :)

But, to use the simple phrase "more challenging" completely covers over the point. It's NOT just a bigger challenge. To less than perfect players/characters, at best, it is "extremely frustrating". At worst, it is impossible, or darned close to it. I don't know how else to say it. All I know is that "more challenging" sounds like fun, and WoC areas are anything BUT fun now (for players like me). Daddicus 02:27, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You don't have to be perfect or seasoned for WoC to cross the line from "impossible" to "potentially doable"; far from it. WoC is doable in less than 12 hours of playtime if you just know what you're doing (and that's a generous figure; it's realistically doable in under six without cons or anything and with a bunch of heroes). The thing about it is that the new builds are designed to stonewall players with standard subpar builds. Once you do things like, y'know, change Razah to a mesmer, buy runes for your mesmers' primary attributes, research (and bring) three good mesmer hero builds, and bring strong healers (by which I mean smiters and channeling/resto rits), the difficulty level drops dramatically. These are all basic optimization strategies, the sort of thing any player that cares to finish WoC can figure out and put into effect. An "advanced" strategy is to wait for the mobs to ball up and micro panic on them, but even that's not especially tricky to figure out or do.

As the IP above warned before, you are again slipping into categorizing things into extremes. Really, stop that; it's silly.

-- Armond Warblade 06:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Alright, after this one, I'm done with this useless argument.

TEF hasn't broken the 1RR just because he's edited the page again, the wording is the same or almost the same (1RR doesn't count when you're clarifying or cleaning up text, just to prevent useless edit-wars and clogging the RC list). I don't think anyone was "stonewalled" or frustrated about the page, no one has tried to change it back or even suggest giant warnings on the Wiki (note: Wiki, there are some about saying it in-game, but that's up to A-Net).

I really only see this as "game-breaking" for characters that are somehow getting the mobs even without completing Factions or getting help from people who have activated WoC and finding out the mobs are stuck. For people that beat Factions, unless they've been getting run through, they should understand the game somewhat well enough to at least attempt WoC with success, or ask people for help. Also, the only parts of the game that are made harder (aside from when you're helping others) are Vanquishes... which are in Hard Mode... Hard.

As for Wiki content, I don't think anything should strive to be "disputed" or have that tag intentionally put on a page. Perhaps it could be reworded to say "much more challenging" or something without introducing the opinions of difficulty, but doing that content requires a lot less than perfect. I did it with a half-assed Ranger build, SoS without a proper weapon set, a Protter with missing insignias (didn't discover that until afterwards), and... I forget the last member. Point is, as long as you have a decent grasp of the game and are willing to ask for help in setting up builds and collaborating to better your characters, which you should by the time you're through Factions, vanquishing, and half-way through WoC, the content isn't that extreme. ~FarloTalk 17:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm no noob at GW. I've got a character with 21 maxed titles, including leg. guardian and I'm 17 areas short of legendary vanquisher. But, with a different character who hasn't progressed that far, I found it impossible to complete. Not "difficult" or "more challenging"; I found it IMPOSSIBLE. It's not even close. We finally made it through Cho's (by spending an absurd amount of sweets) to be completely stumped by the next quest.

To say "I did it, so you should be able to" is an absurd argument, because the warning we are asking for is for people like ME, not people like you (who are obviously experts, despite an unwillingness to admit it). The fact that you can quote the terms you have used implies a knowledge of the game that is far beyond typical middling players.

And, stop with the opinion vs. fact arguments. Unless you care to call me a liar, my inability to finish (or map or vanquish) is a FACT, not an opinion. I've tried, and it's simply not possible with this character at my skill level. And I hope you can see by my "credentials" above that I'm NOT a noob at this. I'm not particularly fond of putting myself in a humiliating position, but facts are facts: I'm simply not good enough at the game to take this character through. And, he's my second- or third-best character. Some day I hope to be able to complete it with him. But that day won't come until I get half the elite skills and a lot more experience. Daddicus 21:56, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

On the one hand, titles are not credentials; more often than not they only show how much effort you've put into the game, not how good you are at it.

On the other hand: Ok then, I call you a liar. You are good enough at the game to do these things; load up the hero builds of people that have done it and give it a try. I know someone who blew off a bunch of my advice, made a half-assed attempt at preparing her heroes, and finished WoC without much difficulty. I refuse to believe you are incapable of loading her hero builds onto your heroes; the worst case scenario is you run around and get some skills. The player build isn't hugely important for the most part; you can get by with anything effective (though a mesmer is generally best).

-- Armond Warblade 22:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I will try some of those and see what happens. I suspect, however, that the only way we're going to make it through the one we're on is to gather together some humans and do it. Unfortunately, my daughter thinks of these two characters as "hers and her dads", and refuses to go with other people (I'm working on that, but she's more stubborn than I am). But, if we can get back to the 8-man parties again, we should be able to succeed, even if we do have to spend some resources to do it.

But, please note that you are illustrating exactly what I'm trying to say: Without more experience, some players will be stymied by WoC. If their skills are low enough, they'll be stuck permanently, and that's not good for their play experience. I found it, ... well, you already know what I think. I don't want any other people to have to go through that.

Further, making it through isn't good enough. The spawns will still be at a high difficulty level, even when WoC Phase I is concluded. THAT is what really bothers me about all this. The present warning is nowhere near forceful enough to dissuade someone like me. Daddicus 22:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Calm yourselves, dudes!

It occurs to me that we (ok, you, I haven't finished Factions yet) cannot get rid of the WoC foes because you haven't finished WoC yet. You may have finished phase one, but there is more to come. It's a bit like saying that you can't get rid of the WiK foes after cleaning up the debris from the first released part of WiK (but before the second part was released).

Or did I miss something somewhere? Cynique 15:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

No, that's pretty much it. The rest of the shenanigans is just people saying "it's hard!" and "no it's not". -- Armond Warblade 16:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

It's a parallel debate to the one that went on mid-WiK, but there are two major differences from the first WiK installments:

1. In WiK, you could always get Kryta-default spawns by teaming up with a player who hadn't started WiK yet (and, newbie players could get help from vets without causing new spawns to appear). This is not true for WoC (e.g. someone doing Mayhem in the Market cannot ferry WoC-toons to Viz-local; the WoC spawns appear, even if players drop all WoC quests).
2. WoC increases the foes for VQing Minister Cho's estate by over 100% (normal VQ: ~200 foes, WoC VQ: ~500 red dots; plus: larger groups and higher density). (The closest comparable situation in WiK is that while certain quests are active, a single zone has an increased number of foes. However, that quest can be dropped or completed to return the spawns to their original density and amounts, albeit with WiK builds.)

Even if those two anomalies (bugs?) were fixed, folks are also contending that WoC spawns are significantly more difficult than WiK foes. (I happen to agree with more challenging, but as others have suggested, I think even so-called average players are able to succeed by adjusting the composition of their default team.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Another important difference is the frequency of the updates, WIK released small updates every 1-2 weeks, so we could have a feel for the escalation to completion. Releasing winds of change in completed phases adds a lot more uncertainty in regards to when it'll be finished.--Stratzvyda 02:37, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the argument of "it's hard" versus "no it's not" - it's not hard, it's just that these builds were designed to counter PvE meta. You get anti-MM, anti-Spirit spammer, and a large amount of blind. All you got to do is find ways to counter them. WiK had builds designed to counter gimmicks but promote balanced builds, this one shuts down the common balanced builds (and gimmicks?) supporting non-common builds. That's all. Konig/talk 18:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I also found that if you enter the areas with somebody who has not yet done any/some parts of WoC the spawns are normal, pre-WoC spawns. Thought I'd share Argatio 21:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Could you be more specific? I haven't found that to be the case (e.g. Mayhem in the Market — with multiple players, some who hadn't finished Factions, some who had but without starting WoC, and some who had started and had dropped all WoC quests). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps its Party Leader Based. e.g. this gal. --Briar AHOY! 23:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

My Sin is roughly 50% of the way through factions, even when it was party leader on normal or hard mode it still spawned WoC mobs when partied with a guildy. Naturally we couldn't test all variables (there's a damned large number of variables) but it certainly seems that you cannot just take a non-WoC toon to reset the spawns.

Again though, the debate has come back to individual debates of challenging/non-challenging... Any idiot could tell you that how it currently stands Minister Chos for a toon that has started WoC is the hardest area in the game to vanquish, period. I could be wrong, but it may even have the largest numbers of enemies in any vanquishable area; not to mention those enemies are packing one hell of a punch, and you are forced to take a 4 man party to vanquish it... we're not talking for some super high end reward here, we're talking for an early vanquish.

The quests themselves were actually a joke. I did most of them with just my heroes, which are poorly set up and un-runed. for those that I did have human party members for, we didn't really struggle, especially once we worked out the various gimmicks (luring the initiate out of the afflicted lake for example, or the common one of just luring enemies from a long way away after triggering the spawns, which all center on a single point... then mill around aimlessly) Certainly there shouldn't be any problem with quest difficulty, it's the results of the quests... And to those that say "once Phase two and three are out you can revert it" Firstly, we don't know, secondly Phase two and three could take until 2020 for all we know, ANet aren't exactly the best at time keeping. (how many times has GW2 had a set release date now? Since early 2010?) Snowmane 23:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

OK with current; I would like one more thing

I'm OK with the current layout, as long as others don't object. Having the red circled exclamation point and "significantly" is pretty good. While I would word it more poignantly, I can accept the current as a reasonable compromise.

The one thing left I would like to see is something about vanquishing and mapping titles. I'm not sure how to say it or where it would go (probably notes), but something like:

Since the during- and after-WoC spawns in the 12 areas are more difficult to defeat than what was there prior to WoC, some have found it difficult to advance mapping or vanquishing titles in these areas. This is especially true on Shing Jea Island, where the maximum party size is smaller.

I toned it down from my real feelings, as you can see, but I'm also open to suggestions (we're a team, after all). The key point is mapping and vanquishing.

One last thing: I don't think this needs to be in the area of the red circle stuff at the start. Somewhere down below would be fine. If anybody sees the red circle and doesn't continue reading, they deserve what they get (more or less). Daddicus 22:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)