Talk:Xun Rao

going by his uniques, this guy doesn't understand some of the most basic uses of weapons... although it gives us some pretty sweet skins-121.131.103.53 16:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The real takeaway is that Xun Rao can kill with anything he picks up, any way he pleases. - Joe Kimmes 21:30, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if this should be taken as canon... I just figured he was some sort of epic battlemage that was, in reality, a D/W/E/N/Me/Mo/Rt profession. Yes, the rarest of all professions: Dwenmemort! Konig/talk 22:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Really? Anything? Hm... now I want to see him using another creature as a weapon. We've seen living bundles, that would be the next logical step. MithTalk 01:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The ultimate living weapon's weapon. Konig/talk 01:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Ecclesiate?

So, what exactly is his position in the hierarchy? Is he above Reiko? --Musha 22:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Reiko was the founder and leader, so no not above him. He was likely one of the top dogs though, given his prominence on the official site. Konig/talk 00:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Seems to me that his position in the org chart is less important than his influence on Reiko and Ashu. And even if it's not something magically insidious (like the Lich King's use of the Mantle for his own ends), the org chart doesn't always show the power within an organization. A top-earning surgeon often has more impact on a hospital than the chief of surgery or even its CEO; university chancellors always complain that they have a dotted line down towards professors, but that the profs themselves have a solid line of reporting directly to God. (Even so, I'd be curious about the lines of authority within the MoP.)

His organizational relationship could also be similar to that as Chairman of the Board: Reiko is responsible for the day to day running of the ministry, but she's hired by the board (not the Emperor), and the chairman apparently just fired her for failing to deal with the player character and seven NPCs using outdated AI. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 09:43, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Reiko founded the Ministry of Purity, so she wasn't hired by Xun (motivated to make a new ministry may be another case though). Konig/talk 13:02, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Nuance of language aside, my point is that, in the org chart, Xun Rao could be both beneath Reiko (as Ecclesiaste) and above her (in a Chairman-of-the-board-to-CEO sort of relationship). We've seen this in real-life political situations, often in the kind of oppressive societies that the MoP was (is?) trying to create.

(I didn't mean hire in the sense you describe. For practical purposes, a founder is an employee (albeit with special responsibilities, usually more power, and commensurate remuneration). In effect, venture capitalists hire a founder to create a company; in any meaningful way, a board of directors hires the founder to run the firm, even if the company was founded before the board existed.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Developer's intent

"What is shown of Xun Rao was intended by developers for his story."

How is this different from any other part of any game? One assumes that even lousy authors choose which characters appear (and which do not)...and the live-team includes good and even great story-tellers. I think Stumme intended something more meaningful by teasing us with "he's also the first EVIL mini. Well maybe not. I will say nothing further on the matter of Xun Rao, except that what you see (or don't see) of him is intentional." Unless we can replace the line with something less, erm, trivial, I think we ought to remove it. Some possibilities:

1. From the beginning, the developers intended that we see little of Xun Rao during Winds of Change.
2. Although Xun Rao does not appear during the story, he is expected to have a profound influence on events in Cantha between now and GW2.

The first is closer to what Stumme actually said and fits the context; the second is more an amalgamation of ideas from various things we've seen (and might be overly speculative). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 09:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Shown of rather than his appearance (or lack of) - it's hard for me to word it right without quoting directly from Stumme, but it's meant to be "everything we know and do not know is intentionally done as opposed to cut or forgotten content" (which seems to be and is known to be a case elsewhere in WoC)

Your first suggestion is speculative: We don't know if his lack-of-appearance was an initial design or not. Same goes for the second with "expected to have [...]" - it's simply stating that what we know and do not know was intentionally placed in the game. Konig/talk 13:02, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

But that's the point: that's true for most of the game. Aren't these statements equally true?

• "What is shown of Miku was intended by developers for her story."
• "What is shown of Ashu was intended by developers for his story."
• "What you see (or don't see) of Eri, Heart of Fire is intentional."

I don't see how Xun Rao's lack of appearance is more notable than Miku's frequent presence or Eri's brief cameos. Yes, stuff gets forgotten or cut/dropped from games, movies, and the like. What makes the circumstances of XR's inclusion in the game more notable than for any other? – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:46, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd say the difference is that the winds of change official website page presents Xun Rao as a prominent figure (like Reiko and Miku), and having a never-seen-elsewhere title implies that he's special, at least. Despite this, he has absolutely no appearance in the game, and is not a historical figure (all other prominent but not-appearing figures are historical).

So his circumstance is unique - one of a kind. Konig/talk 00:06, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Plus, he has a mini, but he is never seen in the game. --Musha 00:54, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Anet has introduced characters with no purpose before (especially in Prophecies). If only for that reason it is important to have the note stating that he will have a purpose and isn't just a random name. 96.42.96.78 01:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Then why don't we rewrite the note to say has a purpose and isn't just a random name? My point is that — as currently written — the idea is trivially true for any NPC: ANet intended some NPCs as local color (random name), some (such as Miku) were introduced early (H'ween brawl) with the intention of fleshing out their story later, and others once important will draw less attention.

We don't have notes about how ANet decided to ignore the Emperor in WoC or relegate Mhenlo to a cameo appearance. (Incidentally, we already note separately that his mini is the only one representing a figure who isn't otherwise in the game.)

If no one else shares my concern, I'll let the matter drop. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The note does not read very well as-is. How about something like "While Xun Rao was presented prominently on the official Winds of Change page, he has never actually appeared in-game. The developers have confirmed this is intentional."? ¬ Wizårdbõÿ777(talk) 20:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter how it's worded to me - I admit the current wording, which I wrote, is sub-par. I was just trying to create a better wording than TEF's (which sounded very weird mid-sentence despite being technically correct) "The developers intended that he not appear during Winds of Change"

I personally preferred my original wording which included the dev's very words: "Xun Rao's lack of appearance in Winds of Change is intentional: "what you see (or don't see) of him is intentional"" Konig/talk 21:06, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Sigh. The way Stumme worded things is only interesting in the context of the question he was answering — as an isolated note, it's a statement that is true of some huge proportion of NPCs. WizardBoy is on the right track: ANet made a big deal about this particular figure in its storytelling, and yet never introduced this same figure as an NPC. That is unique to Xun Rao AFAIK and worth mentioning.

How about, "The developers decided from the beginning to make Xun Rao prominent on the official WoC site and to exclude him from the game itself, i.e. unlike other notable figures introduced first on their websites, Xun Rao never appears as an NPC." (That's probably too long, but it does provide the context...and will lend itself well to copy editing by my esteemed colleagues :-) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 12:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) "WizardBoy is on the right track: ANet made a big deal about this particular figure in its storytelling, and yet never introduced this same figure as an NPC. That is unique to Xun Rao AFAIK and worth mentioning."
... "I'd say the difference is that the winds of change official website page presents Xun Rao as a prominent figure (like Reiko and Miku), and having a never-seen-elsewhere title implies that he's special, at least. Despite this, he has absolutely no appearance in the game, and is not a historical figure (all other prominent but not-appearing figures are historical). "

So WizardBoy was right, but I, who said the same thing, was not? Makes perfect sense. As to your reword, too long and speculative (we don't know what he original intent was). I went with using WizardBoy's wording since everyone is more focused on how to phrase the same damn thing in twenty different ways, and his wording works better than TEF's or anything I could write without being speculative in nature. Konig/talk 14:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I was referring to WizBoy's suggested text. From the beginning, that's been the issue: the language, not the idea — the intended lack of appearance is only notable because he appears prominently elsewhere, which requires a context that wasn't in the original phrasing. (Also I think we do know what the original intent was, according to the context in which Stumme replied, but I'm fine with the current phrasing.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)