Template talk:Voice actor

Other voices

The template needs an option to show other NPCs voiced by the same actor. For example,

{{Voice actor|actor=(unlinked) name of voice actor|other = (linked) list of other NPCs voiced by the actor }}

{{Voice actor|actor=Nolan North|other=[[Mamp]], [[Olaf]], & [[Gron]]}}

Voice Actor:  Nolan North (also voiced Mamp, Olaf, & Gron.)

If other is left out or blank, only the actor's name would be displayed. If people agree, I can probably take a stab at the conditional code (although I'm sure someone else could do it more quickly and more sensible than I).  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I think having it list the other voiced characters is unneeded, as that info is on the voice actor's page. Not sure why the spaces are there, it looks to me to disrupt the template. As for having absolute names for the template, that's not too hard to do if all the actor's pages have already been made.--Neithan Diniem 05:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

So just leave as one name which links to the actor's page (that page has his other characters)? Lucian Shadowborn 05:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Thats what I would do, really. Their pages already list that, so it is unneeded to have it listed over and over.--Neithan Diniem 05:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree, also makes template more stream-line without extra info. Easier to understand too. Lucian Shadowborn 05:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I made the image a little smaller, and made the "Voice Actor" text black to make it less "stand outish" Opinions? -- Wyn talk 01:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Black works. One thing I keep wanting to reach into my monitor and do is to move the icon a hair over to the right, to line up with the bullets, and move the name of the VA closer to the colon. I DID find an 8-year old textbook on Java gathering dust, but I doubt that will help fix what's irking me. G R E E N E R 01:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Ilike the changes so far but still think theres room for improvement, Greener and I share the exact same idea actually. High five bro! Lucian Shadowborn 02:38, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Deletion

I disagree with the deletion of this template. I also disagree with the reasons cited for it's deletion. -- Wyn talk 23:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It's look is subjective - and with the text being blue it looks better - but it isn't necessary (which in turn makes it pointless). -- Konig/talk 23:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. -- Wyn talk 23:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I also disagree with the deletion of this template. Lucian Shadowborn 00:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

This is a rare variety of trivia (for this wiki) in which the type of data is identical for all pages that the bullet would appear: it's always about the voice actor, it's always a name (with a link to an internal article or one at wikipedia or imdb); it will almost always have links to other NPCs that are voiced by the same person. Most other trivia doesn't fall into a recognizable pattern that will hold true across more than a few articles. Accordingly, this is a near-perfect situation for using a template over copy-paste.

I'm more sympathetic to the argument that perhaps it shouldn't call too much attention to the trivia section (since that should be less important than most other parts of the article). (Although I can think of several other things we prominently document that are of little interest to many players.)  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I see that there are two colours on this page, and personally I prefer the blue one. Not sure why there's a space existing between "Voice Actor" and the name, though. Other than that, if it can be made to line up with other bulleted notes, I like it. I just edited the Guild Wars Wiki:Projects/Voice Actors/Demo Page2 to check out spacing, and I'd prefer the Voice actor be listed either first or last among trivia, but definitely not the middle, if this template is going to be used. G R E E N E R 00:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer last, but the spacing can be adjusted on the template as well to eliminate the line height break. This is why we do it on demo pages rather than all over mainspace. -- Wyn talk 02:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

A wise choice. Lucian Shadowborn 02:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I support the deletion of this template. We don't need a template for voice actors in the first place, information like that can just be written in a single line of text. Anyone should be able to put a line like "Person X is the voice actor of character Y." into an article without the help of a template, so there's no need to make something more complicated by using templates. Apart from that I get the feeling that this template emphasises design over content. Why use an image and a special template when a simple line of text will provide the same information and even allows to add some additional stuff like other characters or games that were voiced by the same person? --Amakiir 02:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Because part of this project is to create other pages that contain that "extra" information, so the template provides for consistency on every page where it is used and links back to those pages. After all, the NPC pages are about the NPC, not about the voice actor who provided their voice, and I personally don't feel that that should be included as part of the "trivia". Also, given this is part of an overall project, chances that some "random" wiki editor is going to come along after the fact and add information is slim. Once the project is completed, all the voice actors will be fully documented. -- Wyn talk 02:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The project will take a while to complete, it's not like this change is going to happen tomorrow or even next week. Try a month. Lucian Shadowborn 02:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Template's always subject to change. Take the Main Page for an example. There's always improvements and changes going on the page. I'm sure the same thing applies to the template. I mean damn. →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 02:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"Because part of this project is to create other pages that contain that "extra" information" Which can be done just as efficiently without a template. "I personally don't feel that that should be included as part of the "trivia""It is trivial information. At best, it can go into the Notes section. I prefer the infobox out of everything, but if not that than either Trivia or Notes. Everyone has said "put it at the bottom" - guess what's at the bottom? Trivia! -- Konig/talk 03:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

We do want it in trivia. We already discussed it about the infobox and was decided that it is not the best place for it. Lucian Shadowborn 03:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Once again Konig is misunderstanding, and quoting erroneously. I mean I don't want to see all the "extra information" that Amakiir mentioned about the voice actors in the NPC trivia, not that I don't want the actor noted in trivia. The template is to give it consistency, and yes, a little style, which harms nothing, and imo enhances the page overall. And no, the information does not belong in the infobox. -- Wyn talk 03:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

There's really no need for "a little style" in that kind of stuff. There's also no "stylish" template for things like "This character is a reference to <TV series character here>." or "The character's name is Latin for heavy, fiery stone." or any kind of stuff that would usually go under trivia or notes. Don't prefer style over content, as I already said earlier. --Amakiir 03:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Those aren't credited for being essential to Guild Wars. Voice actors are what make Guild Wars lore fun and interactive. Lucian Shadowborn 03:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with the template's deletion. I find it easy to look at on the pages, it draws my attention but not overly so, and it is visually appealing to the style of the pages it will be on.--Neithan Diniem 05:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"Voice actors are what make Guild Wars lore fun and interactive." Disagree in every way of this sentence. Voice acting has 3 roles in GW: Effect sounds (death wails, damage grunts, etc. of human characters), cinematic dialogue, and voice responses from EN (and affected) NPCs. All three can be completely ignored and have the lore of the game fun, interactive, and with minimal gaps. In fact, only one of them even effects lore. "it draws my attention" why is that even needed? This is small information that is not detrimental to the game. You can live your entire gaming life without knowing who voice acted Shiro in the English language. This doesn't need to draw one's attention. At all. -- Konig/talk 15:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

You can feel free to disagree, that is your right, but the simple fact is, there are others who don't hold your opinion, and so you don't get to just decide this is unnecessary and make it go away. Many people find this information interesting, and for some people the voices in the game are important to the lore/story of the game, I mean, who can ever forget the voice of the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz? Had the voice been different, the character would not have been nearly as memorable, nor had as much of an impact. -- Wyn talk 01:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but where was I deciding this for others? Where was I forcing my opinion? I've only been arguing for why I view that it is pointless and, like anyone in any debate/discussion where consensus is needed, attempting to persuade/convince (choose the word you like best) others into agreement for said consensus. As to the voice thing: Voice is just one aspect of the appearance's whole, while the lore is the story's whole. That's all I was saying - not which is more important. And, tbh, unlike in movies, people quite often skip cinimatics (thus the speaking portion of the game). But that's irrelevant, seeing how we're all in seemingly agreement that the VAs should be listed (yet the discussion derived from that continues, why?). -- Konig/talk 02:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

When you put the deletion on the template before even mentioning it on talk. That's where I can see, and trust me, I've done the same stuff too. You can look at my newest talk archive to get the giest of it.Lucian Shadowborn 02:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Aka, when you put the deletion template up based on your own opinion (before anyone else gave an opinion on, through time stamp) = me changing another template NPCbox with only my opinion. Lucian Shadowborn 02:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I did nothing out of the ordinary. When people believe something should be deleted, they use the deletion tag and state the reason via that tag. If there's disagreement, then a discussion is made on the talk page. If I put the speedy tag on it, or were a sysop/bureaucrat/admin and just outright deleted the template, then I would of been "deciding this for others." The deletion tag is meant to create discussion, not something to add after discussion. I'm sorry, but me adding a deletion tag is not the same as altering a template used on hundreds of articles. -- Konig/talk 02:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit: And before you go "you're wrong": "To propose a page for deletion, the page should be tagged with one of the deletion templates [...] If you disagree or wish to discuss a page's deletion, please explain why on its talk page. After at least 3 days have elapsed since the application of the deletion tag, the page can be deleted by any admin if the deletion is uncontested or a consensus is reached to delete." Guild Wars Wiki:Deletion policy -- Konig/talk 02:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I support the deletion of this template. I do not believe that the stylization of a line of text—a line of trivia, for that matter—is necessary. --Riddle 02:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Konig, can you do me a favour? Can you, eh, bullet what you dislike about this template or what you 'could do to make it better. Also, are you willing to support the actual project and not this template? Likewise for everyone else. I just want to close this discussion as fast as possible, it's getting on my nerves. - Lucian Shadowborn 03:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

If you so wish, I'll bullet what I dislike, and I'll try to take my opinion out of it:

• VA is minor (albeit interesting) and minor things don't typically deserve a dedicated template
• Stylization for something trivial
• A template for a single line

Do note, that I am 100% in favor of noting who the VA's are, but I'd prefer a standardized line of text due to the shortness and rarity of these notes, rather than a template dedicated to such a minor thing. It would be different if GW1 was like how Anet's making GW2 to sound like (VA being everywhere), but as it is, it's not really worth that. Really, the only thing I'm fully against is the template (Wyn has taken note that I've commented against the pages in this category, and the category itself, however that was more of "is this really necessary?" which got ignored - but that's off-topic and should be discussed on the project page). As pointed out below, there'd be no compromise, unfortunately. -- Konig/talk 04:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from, however I do agree with Wyn's statement that almost everything has already been documented. I have seen similar aesthetic things for the cinematic project where Seru added icons for the party leader. Found here, here, and quite frankly under the nav bars, every cinematic. These make the article more pleasing to the eye, why can't this simple template do the same and add on to the category (which is indeed growing very fast due to VAP) and make information more accessible to people that wish to know it. Oh, you may have not noticed and I didn't either but the category is actually a subcategory to the credits category. That was a mouthful! Do you at least see where I'm coming from? I respect your opinion and I believe it's essential in the development of this template. You already address it's bulkiness (which was fixed), it's color (which was fixed), the image size (which was fixed), and it's simplicity which you deemed unnecessary for a template. Aren't templates supposed to make things simple and introduce a form of standardization? I think so, they certainly seem to be used as such, regardless what policies say about templates. This is how some...not all...templates are used. For simplicity. I know, I know, this is quite a bit and you'll prob quote it with a response but I want you to keep in mind; This template is still trying to be developed and won't be implemented (not by me and I'll try to keep others from doing so until it has been agreed upon that it's just perfect). - Lucian Shadowborn 04:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Koing, to be honest, I am still unconvinced about that "importance" of the voice actors is the same as any trivia. Many people feel that Voice actors are more important than you think. Importance of certain aspects of a game depends on the person. Most PvPers couldn't care less about the story or lore. At most they care about the appearance of their armor/weapon and they find the gameplay the most important. Others like you find lore one of the most interesting things about the game. I am very partial to appearance, which is why I don't play WoW despite their reputed gameplay and lore because their graphics are ugly as hell. When I consider playing a game, I look at graphics/appearance first, gameplay second, and story/lore last. Because if I want a good story, I'd read a good novel, not walls of text on a computer/video game.

Unlike any trivia note that has no bearing on anything in the game, Voice actor's voice actually shows up in the game. You never see in quests that say: this quest is a reference to blah blah blah.... I know in America, voice actors are pretty much ignored for most 3D animations and cartoons but in other cultures, especially Japan, they revere voice actors at the same or even higher level than live action actors most of the time. Megumi Hayashibara (one of the most prominent VA's in Japan) can show up to any anime convention, and she'll get as much as or more of a loud cheer by the fans compared to live action actors that show up to comic con. The same could be said in parts of europe and now america as well as the anime fan base grows... and "drama" CD/MP3's are also being sold here in america in europe that are basically famous voice actors reading the manga/graphic novel with some SFX. People buy it because they either like the manga or the Voice actor or both, a lot of people like having voice to text, and that "voice" is important. --Lania 16:03, 09 November 2010 (UTC)

@Lucian: Those PC icons are not unique. They're the profession icon for "any" rather than a specific or "no" profession (the last being an x of the same style). "Aren't templates supposed to make things simple and introduce a form of standardization?"The simplicity was of the non-template version, not of the template. Yes, templates are made to make things simpler, but the standardization is the role of the format guidelines - templates are just forced into a standardization situation. This template, however, does not make it "simpler" as all it does is change "<NPC name> is voice acted by <VA name>" to "{{voice actor|<va name>}} - is it shorter? Yes. Is it simpler? Not really. For constant wiki'ers, yes, but for anyone? No.

But ignoring that, does a single line really need a template to standardize? No. When you get down to it, there's only two questions to ask: Should it be stylized and does is it complicated enough to require a template (like all the other common template uses on the main page)? The first is what's mainly being debated, the second is so obvious to me but apparently is still subjective. Don't know how a single line can be complicated enough to need simplifying.

@Lania: No where did I say that VA is unimportant. I said that it's not that important - that is, that people will not be focusing on who VA's what. It is Trivia - just like who designed the quest is. Maybe it's more of a "Notes" section bit. But that is irrelevant to whether or not it deserves a template. You don't need a template for every important piece of information - there's no template for the paragraphs of lore or background, there's no template for an enemy's HP (rather those we find are merely put into the Notes section), and there's certainly no template for who created what. There's no need for a fancy dancy way of stating a single line. I say go ahead and put the note anywhere, but there's absolutely no need for a template. There's just a want, and a want that I do not share. -- Konig/talk 19:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Compromise?

Can we not do something like this? --Riddle 01:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't remember what went down over there. Care to elaborate? Lucian Shadowborn 02:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I worded that weirdly and destroyed the meaning that I wanted. What I wanted to say was "How about we do something like this? Where the template is just unstylized text. --Riddle 02:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The template linked is, literally, just making a template for normal words and style. I.e., 100% in every way shape and form, redundant and pointless. -- Konig/talk 03:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Would there be a problem with subst'ing it? This would be more convenient for the initial editor, provided he or she didn't already have the necessary text on their clipboard. Plus the end result would be text, allowing ease of editing for future editors. --Riddle 06:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Other than it's simply plain text, and that appears to not be what people want. -- Wyn talk 08:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Plain text is indeed plain. I don't see why a simple image is being disputed so thoroughly on this wiki. Is it because it hasn't been done on previous accreditation? Then why not change those to fit this format? Overall its not distracting, yet its set apart from mere trivia, which I think is a good thing. Knowing that something might have been a reference from some odd thing elsewhere is more trivial than knowing the name of the person that gave voice to a character in the game, which helps develop their personality and the reaction they receive from the playerbase. Same goes for quests and events, if they were created by a particular person, then they deserve to be made separate from the babble that normally fills pages.--Neithan Diniem 15:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"Same goes for quests and events, if they were created by a particular person, then they deserve to be made separate from the babble that normally fills pages."Which is why they're put in the Trivia section, so that it's in its own section with like notes (references and minor informational bits that has minimal to no affect on gameplay experience). It is as separated from the "babble text" as it needs to be. -- Konig/talk 15:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Wyn, it looks like we got a good share of people that don't want this template at all. I think a middle-ground of a template that is supposed to be subst'ed and isn't stylized is ideal, given the current situation.

Neithan, this is not the place to discuss how much a VA deserves credit for his or her work. Heck, pointing out which VAs voiced which characters (what the project is doing, btw) with simple text gives the VAs more credit than they currently have (i.e. a name in a list of endgame credits). --Riddle 00:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking... something like, User:Lania_Elderfire/Sandbox2. It's not stylized, of course probably a bad idea to do a plain text template though... as Jon said in the project talk. I'm still a wiki coding noob so I'm not 100% sure how a template substitution works exactly. --Lania 00:20, 09 November 2010 (UTC)

Riddle and Lania - if it isn't stylized, what's even the point of it? There's not really a (logical, reasonable, a way to make sense, whatever you wanna put in here) way to compromise - either it's stylized (thus gets a template for simplicity), or it isn't (thus a template would be further redundant than it already is). Sadly, this isn't really a situation for compromises - unless someone can think of something that escapes my mind and has not been brought up yet. -- Konig/talk 01:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I would agree that if it's just going to be plain text there is no need for a template, but since that hasn't been decided yet, because I quite honestly don't see a consensus here, then let's just drop the "plain text" kind of compromise template you have proposed. -- Wyn talk 01:56, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Konig, the point would be convenience. I've already said that it would be another way to skin a cat. However, both of you seem to agree that you don't like the any part of this idea or any compromise, for that matter, so I'll stop pushing for this compromise. --Riddle 02:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposal

← moved to Guild Wars Wiki talk:Projects/Voice Actors

Deletion

so, what's up with that, is this going or what? If so, someone please make sure it isn't used anymore. — Why 16:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It appears to be used on a couple pages. - Lucian Shadowborn 18:02, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I know it is. The point was, do we want to use it? I remember people arguing we don't need a template to display who the voice actor of an NPC is, and if we want to delete it, it should be removed from those pages first. — Why 15:45, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

A couple of people expressed strong opinions about using a template because it drew too much attention to trivia; others said it was a good method of ensuring consistent text across multiple articles. No consensus was reached, although it appeared headed towards a template would be okay if it's very low key. The problem is: those that support a template stopped updating new versions to reach that happy medium.

I have re-asked this question on the Voice actor project page before taking action. If those contributing to that project have changed their mind, then there's consensus to delete the template. Or, if they are still interested, I think it would be up to them to renew the conversation to reach a compromise on the template.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)