User talk:J.Kougar/Archive2

Posting on talk pages

Please note that posts on talk pages are still governed by GWW:NPA. Yes, that includes Gaile's talk page. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 03:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Well you can hardly say that she, and ArenaNet, haven't brough it upon themselves.  ;) If Wal-Mart told all it's customers to F-Off if they didn't like the products in each and every way, and that if they complained about even the slightest thing they would be ignored and their opinion completely tossed out... do you think they'd be in business long? Nope, so you can imaging how it'll work out for Guild Wars too. ~ J.Kougar

Unfortunately, admins don't give a damn whether Gaile "deserves" it or not. Violating NPA will get you banned. Any questions? -Auron 04:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If not buying more Guild Wars games is like not shopping at Wal-Mart, does that mean that a personal attack on an employee is like, uh, a personal attack on an employee? -- Dashface 04:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

In all honesty, the truth actually IS "If you don't like it, don't buy it." As far as I can tell by the way, Gaile's job is not tell devs to change things that you don't like. Her job is to relay to the devs the possible addition of things you would like to see ingame and gauge the AVERAGE player reaction not individual. In other words, if you don't like something in GW, her job is not to bow down and kiss your tush. Especially if you act the way you did on her talk page. You can get more flies with honey than with vinegar.... or didn't you learn that? Counciler 06:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be more upset that she doesn't listen to the things you agree with and want. I am a member of the Guild Wars community too and I cannot disagree more vehemently with the things you are saying. - BeX 07:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Admin here. Just to be clear... The issue here is harassment. The basic premise of talk pages on the wiki is to discuss things that are wiki related (i.e. is this NPC in this mission broken or not? does this skill work properly or not?) When people choose to use it differently (chatting, joking, talking about religion, ...) it's by consent of both sides. Harassment (getting on someone's talk page and blasting them) does not really fall under either use (i.e. it's nothing wiki related, and it's obviously not by mutual consent)... As such, this type of contribution is not looked upon too kindly.

Consider this your first warning. Please do not harass other users (Gaile or others) and, just as importantly, don't bring problems from outside the wiki to the wiki. Just because Gaile has a user page here that does not mean you can settle your problems with her here. Keep the usage for the wiki, or something that you and the person talking too are both interested in. This is not a Forum for free-speech. --Karlos 08:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

My first warning? Surely we can do better than that.  :) I'm miffed that I've waisted more than two years of my life and more than a thousand dollars on Guild Wars for a half dozen accouts and all the trimming and extra slots... because untill recently Guild Wars was an amazing game that I got a lot of friends to join. Now I can hardly find motivation to play it and I warn people away from it as much as possible. I still play some just so that all my money and over six thoudand hours of game play aren't a total waste, but Guild Wars won't be bettring another cent of my money unless they shape up, fire the raging bitch that pretends to be community relations just for the attention it gets her while she spends all her time cooing over mini-pets and not doing her damn job. I know Gaile is complete idiot with skill at all, except for maybe what skill she uses under the desks of the Devs while blowing them daily to keep her job... since she obviously doesn't know anything about the game (just look at her constant screw-ups, ignorant posts, and whatnot (how do you play a Ranger primary and not know you can stack traps??? she also thinks Luxons and Kurzicks have two different sets of skills, how dumb can you get?). ANyone who can't see how pathetic she is, has really got to get their nose out of ArenaNet's ass for a few minutes sometime.  ;) Oh, and if that's not enough, I'll leave another gift on Gaile's page just to seal the deal. :D ~ J.Kougar

Just so you know, Gaile's ranger "Gaile Gray" is only level 7. In other words, its not her most played character. Its simply the character she uses to do her PR work ingame. Also, though I don't know exactly which post your talking about, I would bet that she was referring to the different skill ICONS between Luxon/Kurzick skill sets. They skills may be the same, but there are different icons, and for all we know, the mechanics of the GW engine might require two separate skill entries into the database to get two skills with different icons. Even if they are essentially the same.

As for your $1000+ spent on GW, thats all on you buddy. You took a gamble, whether you knew it or not, that the game you bought would always be to your liking. I'll assume by the way you talk that you are intelligent enough to realize this. I'm not saying that you don't have a right to be angry, or that you don't have a right to complain. You certainly do have those rights. But you can't [justly] take out your anger of a game gone a way you don't like on Gaile. Shes not the developers, she didn't change the game against your liking, and she didn't force you to buy the game. Caveat Emptor (Latin; "Let the buyer beware.") may be of some use to you in future game shopping.

Finally, as a personal note, I wouldn't listen to somebody who took out personal attacks on me either. So it goes as no surprise that she ignored you. Counciler 01:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

talk page

have fun being banned :) -FireFox File:Firefoxav.png 23:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

sure takes enough, I mean.. really. How much are you people willing to take? lol Little slow eah?

it takes to clicks to undo what you do ~ Kurd 23:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

and two for me to put it back. This will be fun for a while. :)

...wait, can you people not actually ban me from your wiki? lol This will be fun for a long time then. :)

Guess what kid, there are these things called sysops, and they can. -FireFox File:Firefoxav.png 23:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

kid? lol, funny. Then why are they so slow in doing so?  :)

If you think something as meger as an IP block can do it, you're very wrong. I can do this as much as I want with new IPs every few minutes. I stopped screwing with that ... for the moment because you're all online and it's not as much fun, but I'll be back later. :)

Okay, just once more then I'll go. lol

Your "Beauty of Ascalon" Website

On a much happier note, I like your website. I thought of doing that on mine, but I never got around to it. You should consider doing the same concept with all the other distinctive areas of the game (Ruins of Ascalon, North Shiverpeaks, Kryta, etc...). I for one would enjoy seeing a guided tour, even if I already have seen the places, hehe. Anyways, good job. Counciler 01:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I've considered it, but so far pre-Searing is the only area to really strike me as beautiful... which I guess is kind of sad since I've played through all three campaigns many times. ;) Perhaps though, at some point. I have a lot more content I want to add to my Guild Wars site, but just haven't gotten around to it. ~ Kougar

You face a choice at this moment...

Ok, so you got on here and flamed Gaile, you acted like a big loser, you were confronted, you went on a power trip... "Ha ha, you can revert me, I will revert you back!" and then "I am so powerful! I can sit here and waste hours and hours of my life reverting back and getting new IPs everytime you block one of my IPs" and then the famous Terminator line "I'll be back!"

I want to give you a bit of advice from my experience on the GuildWiki: No one individual is stronger than a community that cares. I have run into a dozen guys like you during my nearly two year tenure there as an admin. Each one of them thinks he can stalk the wiki forever, and each one of them thinks he has till doomsday to do it. All of them vowed that they will spend the rest of their lives doing it, all of them vowed they will never give up, and the one thing that all of them did not count on is the strength of a community that cares. At day and night, there would always be someone on reverting their mischief, all the time. Not dedicated sysops or whatnot, just average users who care about the project, consider it their own and won't sit there and let some dedicated loser ruin their wiki.

So, since I see you making the same proclamations and announcements, I want to advise you before hand not to go down that path. Not because I personally will be there to block you or hunt down each and everyone of your attempts, I make no such claim and don't think I have the energy to do that; but because you'll be going against an entire community of dedicated users who love and care about this wiki.

And this brings us to the second part of my advice to you... Not one user is looking at this as: J.Kougar vs Gaile. Everyone sees this as J.Kougar vs the wiki. If you're trying to prove Gaile is not doing her job, you're doing it in the absolute worst way. First of all, this is a wiki hosted by ANet, if you got banned on Guru (which is a third party website) you think you have a shot here? Second, you're only proving to anyone who reads your criticisms that you're insane and therefore your criticisms should not be taken seriously. Finally, back to my original point, if the fight you're fighting is You vs The Wiki, you will never win, not because I am making big slogans, but because from experience one user can't impose his will on a dedicated community.

Think about this before you go on on your crusade. I am sure there are much better ways to vent your frustrations. --Karlos 03:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to send me a message. I'm not against this Wiki, and I'm really not against ArenaNet... other than they've made some really bad decisions lately concerning their customer base. The customers are the ones who keep Guild Wars going, who keep spending money and who keep bringing in new players. When ArenaNet spits in the face of it's customers and tells them they don't care what they want, they'll do as they see fit because they know how to make the game fun and if the customers don't like it they can f-off... then they can only expect people to stop playing, bad-mouth the game, and be spiteful that something they've invested time and money into has been ruined, or at least their enjoyment of it has.

I never made any proclamations of endearing revenge or anything similar, I just got a little frustration out because I believe that Gaile Gray is to blame for most of the current issues with Guild Wars, as she only sends along the community's feedback if she agrees with it or feels like it at the time, and things like the mini-pets where so many people hated them and didn't want more made, she used her influence to get more made because that's what she wanted and she only cared about what she wanted and to hell with the community. This can be further proved by her posts in threads on Guru about them, like the Asura mini... everyone was saying how stupid it was, how ugly, how awful... and she came in and ignored everyone and found the one guy who agreed with her and posted saying that she felt fully vindicated now and was glad that everyone loved the new mini as much as she did.

Gaile Gray has shown again and again that she's not willing to put the desires of the community above her own, and only passes along what she wants to see done with the game. She's constantly attacking and flaming people who try to leave feedback, and saying that if people aren't going to be happy and positive about the game then she's not going to come back to those forums because she only wants to hear how much people love the game and nobody is ever supposed to critique anything or make suggestions about how to make it better.

Furthermore, Gaile Gray knows nothing about the game she's supposed to be representing. She just plays on the Dev servers and used all the cheats and god-modes she can, and when it comes to the game and her talking to people about it on the forums she shows her ignorance with statements like "I didn't know traps could be stacked" and "I've been calling out my targets to get my pet to attack all along, I don't have to do that?" as well as her more recent ones about how she thought there were a set of new skills for the Kurzicks and a separate set for the Luxons. If she knows so little about Guild Wars and is only in it for the attention she gets, she really should not be involved with the game as she's just making matters worse for the community.

I'm not the only one calling Gaile out on her mistakes and poor community relations shills... there is a thread full of people doing just that right here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10168366&page=9 if you care to check it out. People are finally waking up, getting their heads out of ArenaNet's butt, and seeing Gaile for the failure that she is. I just don't see anything being done about it though.  :(

Due to all this, yes... as I've expressed many times, I'm upset about having spent so much time and money on Guild Wars to see it destroyed, greatly in part by a single woman. I got a lot of enjoyment out of screwing with her pages earlier, because there was a chance she saw those changes or will hear about them... and she already know my name... she's attacked and flamed me on the forums before because I pointed out her mistakes and asked too many questions. So her at least knowing that I'm unhappy, makes me feel a little better... and her pages and such on this Wiki was just a convenient medium to access her... since Guild Wars has no official forum and their customer support just tells you to leave all feedback on the fan forums, which doesn't work because the fan site forums are all moderated by ArenaNet fan-boys who delete anything that isn't praise to the game.

Can I spend a lot of time having fun editing and messing with Gaile's stuff here? Yes. Will I? Maybe, maybe not. It's amusing, and I have both the time and the means to do so, and many friends who would help cause issues if I wanted to... but I'm honestly not sure Gaile is worth it. I do want her to know that I and many others think she's horrid at her job and overly bad for the game in general, but I think she may have figured this out already.  ;) So for now, I don't expect I'll be trying to piss Gaile off for her incompetence for a bit... at least until she does something else incredibly stupid or selfish again. ~ J.Kougar -now- Kougar

I feel a need to point you here when you say things like there aren't different skills for Kurzick/Luxon faction. They may be the same skill, but different faction unlocks different skill icons, and determines your rank in each skill (which is probably different unless you've earned exactly the same for each side). Therefore, the post where it was said 'you can't put both Luxon and Kurzick skills on your bar at the same time' was accurate. - Thulsey - talk 07:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

When they were first putting the skills out, Gaile made a post and make it out like there were 20 new Luxon and Kurzick skills, 10 for Kurzick and 10 for Luxon... and they each did different things, which was not correct. They only added a total of 20 skills, 10 for Luxon/Kurzick and 10 for Sunspear. That aside, it doesn't explain all her other mistakes that are common knowledge for anyone who has played the game more than a few hours. ~ Kougar

I also feel the need to point out that the vocal people do not always represent the majority. Just because there are threads complaining about something on a fan forum, doesn't mean that that in any way represents the community as a whole. All of this behaviour is based upon opinion, not fact, which makes it even more ridiculous to watch. - BeX 07:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You cannot possibly poll everyone or every user. Everyone knows this, which is why companies poll or ask the opinion of a diverse group of users of said product, and use those opinions to represent the whole. If you can't ask everyone, ask a few hundred and get the general feel for it, it's just the way it's done. Which is why polls on fan forums are excellent for seeing what the majority want. :) ~ Kougar

On, and the official Guild Wars support tells it's customers to go to the fan forums to leave their opinions, and as such, makes the forums an even better place to see what the community as a whole wants. Sure, it's still bias because the moderators of most of those forums are a bunch of brown-nosers who delete post after post if they see the post as not being praise about the game. If I went there now and made a thread specifically for and about people's opinions on if Gaile Gray was doing a good job, they'd close and delete the thread the second someone said anything beside 'yes'. ~ Kougar

100 people may complain about something but meanwhile a hundred thousand or more others are happy with the state of the game and find no need to complain, opting instead to play. With most issues in this world, including politics and social rights, it is only the small minority that protest and dissent. Most people are either happy with the current state of things and have no reason to speak up or don't care/don't have an opinion. Your threads may get replies, but out of the huge community of a forum those posters represent an extreme minirity. So don't go around preaching your point of view as the view of the communiy. - BeX 08:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

lol, yea... and you know that so many are happy with each change they make how? When they screwed up Soul Reaping and hundreds of people posted and voted on how to fix it and not ruin the class, they still ignored it... but that doesn't mean that it didn't affect a lot of people. I have friends who used to play Necromancers all the time, they aren't part of the forums, but they have stopped paying the Necros and/or Guild Wars because of the change... so you're idealistic vision of everyone not complaining being happy with everything is idiotic, since it's just as easy to assume they are unhappy with the things instead, and you can't prove it either way... so you have to take what the vocal people on the forums are willing to give, since that's all there is to go on. ~ J.Kougar

Do you actually believe that being aggressive, disruptive, offensive, and downright a nuisance is going to help make things better? Do you personally give in to another person's demands if they keep harassing you for it? -- ab.er.rant 07:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Not always, but if they make themselves heard, at least I know what they do want and/or how they feel. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, add to the voices of all those in the above linked thread and all the rest who can see what she's doing, and moreso what she's not doing. It needs to be seen. If I was still working retail and I bitched out customers and slacked off all the time, only doing the parts of my job that I wanted to, I'm sure someone would point it out to others and to my boss, and I'd be reprimanded for it. The problem here is, you cannot get past the idiots like Gaile to get to her higher-ups and make your concerns heard. ~ Kougar

Thats kinda the point. When your dealing with a Public Relations MANAGER, there IS no higher level that the public (like yourself) can complain to. Unless a LARGE amount of people stand up and say shes doing a horrible job, shes not going anywhere. If you really feel that she is not the person for the job, you might want to stop attacking her directly [alone], and start getting like-minded people to join you. Then make your move. AS it stands now, she probably doesn't give a damn what you think, because you are no threat to her. Counciler 07:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but a large number of people are upset and do think she's doing a horrid job. I'm just trying to bring more attention to all those people. I linked to a thread with a lot of folks in it talking about how bad she's doing, but it's rather hard to get them together because Guild Wars is only willing to recognize what's on their 'Elite Fan Site Forums' and those sites will delete anything even similar to a complaint about their beloved Gaile Gray who they seem to warship and think is incapable of making any mistake or doing any wrong (which is why they cover up most of her errors and ignore her flames and attacks upon users). ~ Kougar

Admittedly, my tactics up to this point were crude and messy... but it worked didn't it? I got the attention drawn to the concerns regarding Gaile Gray, which was the whole goal all along. Now I just have to keep moving forward from here. I know I cannot post on the forums, as explained above, and if I try to post concerns like this on Gaile's page here on Wiki they'll likely just be deleted again... so I'll have to figure out what's the next best move.  :) ~ Kougar

There are a few problems with the premise of your case. I will try to point them out:

1) The first flaw is that you think the Devs of ANet are lockd up in this office and the only feedback they get is from Gaile, therefore, she has too much power in portraying what the community likes or does not like. This is completely wrong. The Developers of the game play the game, they have accounts in the game just like Gaile and they also read the forums, just like Gaile (if you were not such a brat, I would show you an example of Isiah Cartwright showing threads he read and why he liked them). They are as responsible as Gaile for feeling the pulse of the game's community and as guilty as she is if they do not get an accurate reading on that pulse. I have personally met with Devs in game to help solve exploits and bugs. I do agree with you that ANet does not have an acurate read on what the PvE community wants most of the time. I feel their style of "Let people duke it out on forums and may the best idea win" is a a very weak way of listening to their customer. It is a flaw that I recognize in them and one that I doubt they will fix any time soon. I believe they listen to the wrong people who are either a) not very good at PvE or b) not very connected to the average players and this is why they make a lot of mistakes in PvE (witness releasing Critical Agility overpowered, then fixing it in a hurry poorly, then fixing it again, 3 builds in 3 days). You would be VERY mistaken however, if you thought this was Gaile's fault. The Devs listen to their "friends" in the Alpha test teams and the elite PvP guilds.. Those are the people who have ANet's ear.

2) The second flaw is that you consider Gaile's job to be to report back to Devs on what the community wants. Gaile's job is Community Relations Manager, and while I do not claim to be privy to any insider's information as to what her job description says, I doubt it's to act as Quality Assurance and bring issues to the Devs. Gaile's main job is to create excitement in the player base about the game and playing the game. She's like the mascot of an NBA team. She is not supposed to be an objective judge but a zealous advocate. She goes to LA ID1, gets people talking and excited, leaks news of upcomign things, listens to people praise the most recent additions to the game... that's her job, PR. Now, as a reasonable person (and concerned employee of the company), if she sees someone reporting a bug or making a great suggestion, she'll tell the Devs about it if she deems it worth mentioning. But it is not her job to describe what the player base wants. In fact, the reason ANet tells you to post ideas to forums (not to Gaile or some private e-mail) is so that Devs can guage the amount of support this idea has in the player base without filtration from Gaile or anyone else. By the way, with regards to her job as PR perso, she does an EXCELLENT job.

3) The third flaw is that you think Gaile is supposed to be a great player to be able to do her job. This is, again, false. In fact, if I was hiring for her position, I would want someone who has is NOT skilled in the game. Gaile is a writer by profession if you ever saw her profile. She is not a hardcore programmer and I personally tend to agree with your assessment that she's probably not all that skilled in playing the game. However, often times, as a player's skill increases, they lose the ability to relate to the average player. I know that I can no longer fathom people asking for help with Normal Mode missions since I am so used to doing them solo with heroes. Her position is all about relating to the average player base and their concerns and aspirations. I personally could not care less about birthday presents, but the average player base is preoccupied with them, and you'll see that Gaile is preoccupied with them too.

4) Making mistakes does not necessarily negate skill. I know for a fact that if you ask me about echoes vs chants, I would have no clue. Now, I am pretty experienced in this game as you can judge by my profile, but I simply have played Paragon only as a mule. I think it's very humble of her to make mistakes and to profess to not know things.

5) You have no shot at disrupting this wiki. This wiki has 7282 other users. Even if you and your "buddies" decided to stalk it for the rest of your lives, you'd have no shot against the huge multitude of users. Not to mention that, since this is a site owned by ANet (and backed by ANet's legal machine) you'd be setting yourself up for some SERIOUS consequences. This is not GuildWiki where all we could do is just keep reverting and blocking IPs... ANet has the money to go after you if ever you prove too disruptive. At which point you'll just stop popping up here and will be remembered as a nuissance, not a martyr.

6) There is also the FG factor. FG was a troll on GuildWiki who had a beef with someone and like you harrassed her all over the wiki, was banned and rebanned and was obnoxiously chasing that person everywhere and popping up every other week whenever anyone mentioned that user he was after. Let me tell you that after more than a year, people got so sick of him that even those who believed him would not take action against her. It was the funniest thing ever. Here he was spending all this time trying to prove she was a bad user, and even those who agreed with him, were so riled up by the prospect of proving him right, that they remained silent. So, the path you're threatening to take REALLY leads no where. Take my advice and let it go.

Just some food for thought sir. --Karlos 08:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you there, I know Izzy just listens to his little PvP butt-buddies when it comes to skills, which is complete bullshit when it comes to PvE Only skills or PvE in general. He should try playing PvE himself, and not listening to a bunch of stupid ideas about balancing the skills from a lot of PvP players who are only looking out for their own builds. Gaile isn't fully responsible for all the screwups and the current state of the game, but she's had a very big hand in it, and her influence in bringing about unwanted changes or features like more mini-pets.

Gaile Gray's title is Customer Relations, not PR... and even with PR, she sucks. I cannot see how her idea of attacking and flaming people on the forums is going to get them excited about playing the game, and more than her constant releasing of wrong information or her frequently incorrect statements about the game or it's mechanics.

You sure have a lot of opinions about stuff, which is good, so do I. Your opinions are no more valid than mine, so in many cases we'll just have to agree to disagree.  ;)

This Wiki has a lot of registered users, but not very many contributors or active persons it would seem, given it's the 'official' wiki for Guild Wars and yet has no where near the content or users that Guru's Wiki has. Which is honestly why I started to post and upload things here. I thought that people would leave Guru for here but they didn't, so this place didn't ever get fully completed... which is a little bit of a shame, but oh well.

Your big bad threats of lawyers and such isn't going to intimidate me, you'd have to be able to prove that all the different IPs that I'd be using were all me in order to do anything anyway, if I were to chose to do something big... which I already said I wasn't planning to do, but if you keep baiting me and challenging me and trying to get me to do so like you have been, then I just might give you what you want. I know you feel superior with all your other admins behind you, typical pack mentality that even animals with very low level intelligence have... but don't keep challenging me to try and disrupt things, you'll just have top sit and revert stuff over and over, or your friends will, and it'll just be a lot more trouble that you caused by prodding and poking me until I do something about it.

Go back and read my posts, because obviously you haven't or missed the majority of what I've been saying. ~ J.Kougar

I never threatened you with anything, I was just giving you advice. I tried to reason with you and explain to you why it simply cannot work from experience. Knock yourself out and do your worst. Touchez. I will not continue this discussion because it is obvious to me that you're just thriving on the attention. You don't really care what I say and you'll just refute and debate but keep popping up. So, I'll stop feeding the troll personally. --Karlos 21:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Well sorry if I take your 'don't do this or else you'll regret it cause we are just all that' speeches as egging me on to try and prove you wrong, but that's just how it comes across. The more arrogant and bad-ass you try to make yourself sound, the more you ask to be put in your place, which is not what I'm wanting to do... since I really just wanted to draw attention to get the issues noticed/seen and I did and they have, so that's all that matters. Like it or not, you are now more aware of all the people who think Gaile is a worthless piece of crap... and that's progress.  :) Sure, you can continue to try and get me to screw with this site, and then explain to the other admins how it was your fault for asking me to make more work for them, but while I might get some amusement out of it it's really not going to help my goals, but the annoying part is that on the internet you can't just knock blow-hearts like yourself on their asses to shut them up and prove them wrong... so sadly, it has to result in smaller more petty things like being an annoyance to someone. You're one of those people who in real life can kick anyone's ass as long as you have a whole group of friends to back you and help you, right? Then you feel good about yourself? You come off that way, but oh well... that's totally off topic. The whole point is, if you'd bother to read where I've made it again and again, is that Gaile is an idiot and really bad at her job, and many many people feel the same way. Eventually, that'll lead to something I hope... but not without people like me to draw attention to that fact by any means necessary. ~ J.Kougar

I think of all the people doing the egging on here, it might be you. You keep tempting the admins and threatening them. And you fault them for doing exactly what you wanted them to do. You can't truly expect them to simply ignore you and let you post things like that on Gaile's page, can you? You had to know that they would in fact take action against you. But for some reason, you also think that what they are doing is saying they are "better than you". They aren't... they are doing their "job" as an admin/sysop. If you really want credibility to your arguments, wouldn't it be better to not argue with the people who have perceived authority here? If a suspected criminal fights the cops, people think he must have done something wrong. Its the same concept here, if your "against" the admins, nobody will want to hear what you have to say. But then again, that brings us back to the whole "fighting in the wrong place" idea. My point is that you have been the rudest of all the people talking here, and it comes as no surprise that you are being chased by the admins. Counciler 23:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I see, Kougar, that you have calmed down somewhat from your destructive ways, but that is not enough in my book. I have read this entire discussion and I still see you as disruptive to this wiki. One, for circumventing your blocks and registering another account, which I will block after this post. You cannot be reprimanded and expect that you can come back the next day with a new IP and registered name and expect everything to be ok. Take your punishment, come back after your block, and think about how your actions did nothing but tarnish your name and anything you say is now taken with a grain of salt. Secondly, you still seem to want to violate GWW:NPA by insulting Gaile thoughout your continued posts. I won't lie, her status does make her different, but she is still a user on GWWiki and should be treated just as you should treat any other user.

Call me the bad cop of the admin group, but I do not pull my punches and I will not ignore your violation of policy just because you think you have a valid point to make and it might even be true, but you went about it the wrong way and basically lost any credibility in your statements. If you do not like the game or the path the ANet staff is choosing, go play another game. No one is stopping you and the door out is unlocked and wide open. I don't play anymore myself, and I do disagree with some of the things ANet is doing, but I am responsible and mature enough to discuss it in a proper manner. Karlos banned User:J.Kougar for one month and I banned your proxy IPs for 2 weeks. Karlos' original sentence will stand and allow you to think about cooling off, thinking about how to present your reservations in a proper manner, or think about leaving the game. However, do not bring your frustration out on our wiki. To paraphase Karlos, ppl work hard to make this a great place for information and believe deeply in this project. Take your concerns to a forum and again, do not disrupt any of the pages of this wiki. Karlos is also correct, it is a waste of your time and ours to chase you around and ban every account you decide to switch to, but it our job, and we will do it regardless. — Gares 13:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Well well well, don't you think you're just the mightiest of all... strutting in here with no idea what's going on and making bold threats about banning IPs (a half dozen or more have already been banned, and I care why?) and how you're going to enforce it this time. lol Idiot. Karlos and I are trying to have a nice little talk here, and we really don't need you butting in with your threads and your attempts to bait me into going back to screwing up pages again, why do you want the extra hassle anyway? Why try and get me to do so, why dare me to try because you think you can block every IP and every account I decide to make for however long I decide to do so? Just mind your own business and go away, you're not helping the situation at all. Oh, and FYI... nobody bothered to tell me how long any of the bans were till now, I just assumed it was a permanent thing, might as well be, matters not to me.  ;) Still... you're best bet is to just mind your own business... I'm chatting with Karlos here because he's the only one to not come in acting like some twelve year old brat with an 'I'll tell mommy complex' (for the most part, he's slipped a little) but you're attempts to be intimidating are not at all helping the situation.  :) ~ J.Kougar

Hey! I was being polite! :( Counciler

A) Your attitude problem is the root cause of the negative comments you see here. That and your blatant disregard for the wiki community.

B) There's already one person behaving like a spoiled 12 year old (ie: you) no need for Karlos to stoop to your level. I applaud him for his patience; but this whole thing could have been avoided had you acted with a little more maturity. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Reminder to everyone: Personal attacks toward any user are not acceptable. --Rezyk 00:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Gares with his support of your ban, and I will do the same when I see you flout it. That said, I have no doubt that you will continue to flout it, so I'll throw my two cents in.

First and foremost, Guild Wars Guru does not have a wiki, last I checked. You may have been referring to the GuildWiki, something I'm moderately familiar with. I'll assume you were. I love that wiki; I've been using it for a long time. However, when Gaile and Mike invited me and a couple others to a conference call to create this wiki, we were all for it. You'll notice that nearly every administrator from the GuildWiki signed on here to help administrate. To most of us, this place represents a new frontier -- a chance to fix all the mistakes we made when we built the GuildWiki. A colossal "do-over," if you will. For the most part, this has been incredibly successful -- we administrators here don't have anywhere near the limitless authority we have on the GuildWiki. I'd have a tough time unilaterally wiping content without consensus here. I digress; my point is merely that the lack of a migration from GuildWiki to here does not indicate failure of either wiki. We're different sites. The GuildWiki focuses more on the hardcore player and the community at large. The Official wiki is geared more for the average player.

J.Kougar, you horribly misunderstand the concept of "the average player." You claim that because certain fansite communities overwhelmingly support X implies that the average player supports X. This is not true. The average player (this may surprise you) does not post on the forums. The average player does not know forums for the game exist. They might not even know what forums are! The average player doesn't know what the GuildWiki is, and, at this point, most average players don't know what the official wiki is either -- but that will change when it's integrated more directly into the game.

A Guru thread in support of X only means "A subset of the powergamers who play Guild Wars support X." That's a far cry from average player response. More importantly, however, is that people are dumb. The average player (and even the average powergamer) doesn't generally know what's best for the game, the community, or even their own fun. Game designers are hired because they're particularly good at that sort of thing. Seeing the ridiculous popularity of Guild Wars so far, I think they're doing something right. That a couple necro players quit Guild Wars over changes to Soul Reaping does not indicate a failure on ArenaNet's part. They're not paying subscription fees, so there's no immediate tangible loss. ArenaNet makes money when people buy the game, and people are continuing to do that as well as ever!

As far as your assessment of Gaile goes, you couldn't be further off the mark. Karlos stated this particularly well. Considering how many people adore Gaile, she's relating with the community quite well, I'd say.

—Tanaric 22:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought

If you hate Gaile and ANET so much, wouldn't it make more sense to make your OWN forum filled with other haters and such. Making a site that blatantly points out the faults of your target would be much easier than fighting resident admins on a FANsite.... notice the word fan. Stop trying to attack ANET on their allied sites. Thats like trying to set up a Kurzick forward outpost inside Cavalon. It doesn't work like that. If you want to fight a war, make your base of operations in friendly or neutral territory. I hate to give ideas or whatnot, but I am a neutral adviser here in this matter. Build up your strength and your numbers before attacking ANET. Make AntiFan Forums, Build signed petition lists, write formal letters, build your credibility as a warrior fighting for what "everyone wants". Because right now.... your acting like a 12 year old troll. Nobody believes you right now... your claims fall on deaf ears. So back off, rethink your strategy and try again later. Because you have lost this battle. Counciler 20:04, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

If people cannot read the forums, see the links, and haven't been around long enough to watch Gaile in action, then they aren't really worth my needing to make them believe anything. There are hundreds and hundreds of people who have watched Gaile screw up again and again, and eventually they'll all make it apparent enough that they don't like it, that something will be hopefully be done. I'm not the leader type, I'm not ready or willing to lead a rebellion... but I don't mind handing out the flyers that there is a resistance and more and more unhappy people all the time. That's bound to go somewhere, some day.  :) ~ J.Kougar

You're overestimating the general populous and their ability to connect the dots :P -Auron 12:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I happen to agree with J. Kougar. Although it is disappointing to see the admins of this wiki immediately shutdown constructive criticism, it is not very surprising. I don't see his points about balance being driven by "Izzy's butt-buddies", but most of his other comments seem appropriate.

If it was constructive criticism it wouldn't be shut down. It is because of the violations of GWW:NPA that it was shut down. --Rainith 21:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It is constructive criticism. I believe you are a liar and bend the rules to your whimsical favour. Congrats on fostering Fascism in the 21st century. Mussolini would be proud.

Personal attacks and insults are NOT constructive. His ban is a direct result of the policy violations against such statements, as outlined at GWW:NPA. Such bans would be applied regardless of who they were directed towards. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Whoops...

Sorry to have vanished for a bit there guys, I know I should have gotten back to you all on your amusing little responses and such to that mess of text above, but I got a little busy with stuff that was a little more important. My vehicle's transmission went kerblewie, which was a little annoying for a week or so while I worked out finding and buying a new vehicle, but it worked out well since I got this sweet deal on a really nice one with more little deluxe bells-and-whistles and unless electronic gadgets than I'll ever want or need. lol Anyhoo... yes, so I'm back, just FYI. I should probably dig through that mess above and respond to everyone, but it just really seems like too much effort. lol If you had a point that wasn't addressed already and you really feel that it's something more than 'your opinion vs. my opinion' then feel free to repost it here.

--Summery-- ...but don't expect that you're going to change the basic fact that I felt that Gaile Gray was doing a horrid job, and a heck of a lot of other people felt that way too and many of them were posting in a thread about it... but that thread wasn't getting seen, wasn't getting the attention it should have... so I pulled a bunch of crap to get all eyes on me, then pointed out that thread and voiced my opinions on the matter... because had I simply asked everyone to go look at that thread and hear my concerns, nobody would have listened... so it took something drastic to get the job done, and it worked as planned. My account got banned, oh well... worth it.  :) ~ J.Kougar

Notice

I removed the notice about being banned until such and such a date, I really don't think it's going to be any good because If he keeps going on the way he is he's never going to get unbanned. Feel free to put it back if you feel it necessary though. -- Scourge 02:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

What? Say it aint so! What ever will I do? lol Besides, I was just editing my own page there, no one else's... so relax.  ;) As I've already said above, I made my sacrifice and if that's a perma-ban, which I expected it was going to be back when I did it, then so be it. If I ever want to contribute something I'll just make a new account again and not post with it here so that you'll never know, and I'd have my fresh start. Not interested in that though, least not now, so either way. Do what you feel you need to.  :) ~ J.Kougar

GWW:SIGN

Hey, I suggest you read this. It states your signature needs a link to your userpage in it.--§ Eloc § 10:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Eloc as far as I can see, Kougar's signature includes a link back to his userpage. If you're looking at the the signatures above, that was when he was circumventing the ban placed on his account, that issue is now hopefully well and truly in the past. -- Scourge 12:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, I made many of those posts when I was not logged into my account due to a ban, and was bouncing from IP addy to IP addy to be able to keep posting.

Yours was still a useful post, after all... I'd only ever signed with just my name because I had no idea how to add the time and date. lol If I'd have known it was just an extra ~ I'd have been doing it long ago. ;) Now, if I only knew how to do all that fancy archiving stuff for comment pages and the like, so I could clear up some of the old incase anyone wants to drop a note about my current new submissions or such. Oh well, I might poke around for that info at some point, but I really haven't much time these days... the weather is nice and my fiance and I are heading out for the day once again.  :) ~ J.Kougar 14:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Look here for info about archive boxes ~ Kurd 15:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, will check it out. ~ J.Kougar 15:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I thought you just had it on Raw Signatures. For like a while going up, it was just "J.Kougar" with no link.--§ Eloc § 17:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)