User talk:Marcus The Cube/Archive 1

This page has been created by the User:Chaos Messenger. He alleges that he has done this in consent with Regina Buenaobra, that wants to clean her talk page.
It seems that she can not archive it on her page, but needs mine for that. There is no logic in that in my humble opinion, but I don't mind.
Marcus The Cube 23:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Nerfing in general

→ moved from Feedback talk:Regina Buenaobra/Journal#Nerfing in general

Overall I fully disagree with those frequent rule changes.
Using the same logic I wonder what moves the Queen in a chess game would be allowed to do after the 500th nerf...

Either a game allows farming or not. Either a game gives incentive to farm solo or not. This is primarily determined by the loot drop behavior and not by the skills.

The GW world has always been a solo farm area. Teamplay has always been strongly discouraged by the games' loot scaling. Fine. But once that decision is made I don't see any good thing in removing skills that save those solo farmers time when doing their repetitive thing on and on and on and on and on... It's cruel to want people to waste even more of their time for that and of course primarily claimed by those that have already got the loot they wanted the "easy way" as they are afraid others may also get "rich".

Would you really like the game to nerf the farm builds in order that people have to sit 2 hours on their PC to get one ecto? Would that really make you happy?

You think you can get integrity by changing the rules weekly? Hmm, would you really like to have a guess each time when you step on a pedal in your car what will happen?

All this from a point of view of a regular GW player, casual player that would like to earn some money ingame must feel like a ping pong ball...Marcus The Cube

Tell me when Chess starts having a few hundred differently moving pieces and will allow both players to pick and chose whatever they want with relatively small restrictions, and THEN I'll let you use that comparison. — Poki#3 (talk) 11:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

You know what's the problem with GW? It allows boards to look like this:

8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h

edit: You are in a pretty bad shape if you say GW has always been a solo farm area. Do your homework and come back. Titani Ertan 11:11, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

If skill selection is supposed to be a meaningful element of the game, then some skills always have to be more powerful than others. Same goes for strategies and tactics. People will weed out beginners for lowering the team's chances of winning, the same is done with skillbars. A natural selection process starts and players will pretty soon have found out what is best and all tend to use that. The Chess example is insofar botched that only the black player is allowed to stampede over his enemy with a full set of queens. In PvE that is considered normal. In PvP both sides can get anything and in contrast to chess each queen has its counter. The farming problem arose from the fact that killing monsters with fewer people on the team yielded a higher “per capita” income. That basic idea rooted at the bottom of GW principles will always lead to the same result. Play solo, get the most. Only if quest rewards (Gems in DoA), or Dungeon Chests are the target do players group. EotN dungeons saw the rise of a new type of farming. Solo-farmers taking people with them to make more money on their run. Why not sell that “lottery ticket”, i.e. dungeon chest, to other people while you are at it? For some time Ursan teams were doing pretty well and a lot of people were able to play that. So many in fact, that Ursan got nerfed to hell and back. What followed were speedclears of UW and FoW based around SF. Fewer people did that, which lead to fewer very rich and more average poor players. If that gap is to be closed, then playing like an average player has to have its advantages. Still, that would offend the greedy player with his extremist builds and the average player probably does not care that much.--4thvariety 12:08, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

That's correct. But, let me ask you something, have you ever, in PvE, used Feedback? Have you ever, in PvP, used Forceful Blow? That's exactly my point. Why should you use those skills? There is a difference between viable skills, overpowered skills, underpowered skills, and simply horrible skills. A Game Balancer's job is to change that. Titani Ertan 12:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

"Would you really like the game to nerf the farm builds in order that people have to sit 2 hours on their PC to get one ecto? Would that really make you happy?" Actually... yes. -- Wyn talk 13:32, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I very much used feedback :p on the topic of solid state game balancing and suggested introducing a certain flux to keep mainstreaming at bay: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback:User/4thVariety/Variable_Skill_Strength_%28Death_to_PvX_Wikis%29 But in all seriousness, if enemies would not cheat with their energy, the game would be totally different. Because enemies cheat, we know better than to wait until they exhausted their resources and then attack (compare RTS games). No, we have to enter the storm so to speak, which makes for better gameplay honestly. It enables enemies to put up enough pressure with their tiny builds. Even to the point that people feel a tank is a good idea and if the tank's aggro explodes, things get very dangerous. If enemies had limited mana resources, we would have a tank drain them and the rest of the team could wipe them. There would be energy exploits left and right. The problem with forceful blow is mainly the weakness of conditions in general. Which is due to their strength. Because conditions are strong, teams will bring adequate resources to remove them. All attributes at 1 effectively removes one person from the game. At five adrenaline quite a bargain. But can you really turn that into a gamewinner? Probably not because the other team will raise hell not to fall prey to that. Forceful Blow, its true weakness comes from its strength. As for the job of the "game balancer", I am pretty sure his job is to be the fall guy no matter what. 4thvariety 13:45, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

You missed the point. Really, the point knocked on your door, breathed into your nose, and you just ignored the point and slammed the door at points' face. Read what I wrote again... and understand that I am not discussion specific skill changes.

You're wrong. A Game Balancers job is to do exactly what his name suggests: BALANCE a GAME (see why they call him that?). When the gap between overpowered skills and viable skills grows, it's the GAME BALANCERS job to notice and address that, in any form or shape. When viable skills diminish and become horrible skills according to metagame, it's the GAME BALANCERS job to . Seriously, I'm giving you the point on a platinum platter. Titani Ertan 13:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Just so you know, weakness doesn't reduce all attributes to 1, it reduces all attributes by one. This means that if you had 14 hammer mastery without weakness, with weakness you have 13. The rest of your argument relating to Forceful Blow kind of become meaningless after that. Misery 13:53, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Right, weakness also reduces weapon damage and can make a martial mob quite harmless with something as cheap and lasting as Enfeebling Blood, which makes it one of my all-time favorite skills in PvE. Pretty worthless against casters, though. Rose Of Kali 14:42, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

The discussion about the "Skill Balancer" job and his work and responsibilities is kind of mot, since the person with that title is working on GW2 full time. Oh, and we REALLY, REALLY don't need another topic about "Balance". Really. As far as farming, where where you when this happened? (I direct you to the "Loot now scales according to party size." line.) That basically made solo-farming obsolete... Do you have any idea what kind of backlash that got? Every forum was ablaze. I remember people talking, that farming was THE ONLY THING that kept them playing Guild Wars and now when they don't have that they won't play anymore. It was such a mess that this had to happen the next day. The community needs more fixing then the game. (and that's why I have my hoped on GW2, because it'll allow the community to create itself anew) — Poki#3 (talk) 15:28, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Lol wow, I didn't even know about those updates. The main thing that Anet needs to do with GW2 is to start it right from the beginning, so that at most they might do small tweaks, because indeed radically fixing such issues after the fact is playing with fire. Rose Of Kali 16:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

@Titani: How on earth is a skill balancer supposed to rebalance a skill which main objective does not even make sense in PvE? Same goes for Forceful Blow. If you got 1319 skills, some of them are bound to be rock bottom bad when looked at from the end-game perspective. But different tiers of skill powers, allow for the game to have an increase in the skillpower over the course of the game, which is the only power gain a GW character will know. You accuse me of "slamming the door into skill balance's face", but in reality all I ask is that people acknowledge that beyond levels 1-20 there is a somewhat meaningful power-progression of elite skills you acquire. Forceful Blow is part of that, but it comes at a cost: the skill will appear useless later on when the player finds an even better one. I admit, the elite-skill power-progression and distribution in Factions is not the strength of campaign #2. But I ask that people at least try to perceive the game beyond simple complains of player beyond the 500h mark. @Poki: The whole loot-scaling thing only showed that greedy people will go for the flame-fest, if you take away stuff from them. Back then, as today, I say the reasonable thing is not to gimp them, but to find ways of rewarding the rest MORE. Do not lower the existing drop rate people are used to, when entering UW alone. Instead raise the drop rate for people operating in close proximity to each other. But that would be more complicated programming work. "Each opponent dying in your aggro range drops 40% more loot (Effect Stacks)" is a totally viable option. All it takes for Anet is to find the nerve to go up against the very vocal solo-grinders and speed-clearers again. But with grinders being very in the face of ArenaNet and "normal players" not accessing the feedback channels to express any lingering gratitude really, the game is between a rock and a hard place.4thvariety 16:07, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

How is a Game Balancer supposed to balance skills and game mechanics? Learn what Balance means before telling me it's impossible. One of the main reasons Anet failed and continues to fail is because they just can't accept the fact that they rushed Factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North productions, creating a huge batch of skills not being tested or even looked at. Titani Ertan 16:14, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

@4thVariety: Sorry, I'll disagree with you on that one, at least in the current state of things. Virtually anything that you're going to add to better non-farmers will backfire, and the farmers will exploit it to get at least double the intended amount. Furthermore, there are things called "Power Creep" and "Inflation". Nerfs are a necessity, and giving more won't make anything better in the long run. Increasing Ecto drops by 320% is a horrible idea. — Poki#3 (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

How does having hindsight improve the game? If Anet thought all those games were perfect then why are we still getting constant updates. I also want to point out that at the time of the Factions release the whole concept of balance was a big unknown. Even top guilds were wondering, if balance should mean that people with only one campaign are still be 100% competitive in PvP compared to people owning both campaigns. Over time it became clear that this is not an option. I also did not say balance was impossible. I only pointed out that balance is more than a perceived equilibrium of power between over 1000 items. Balance can also mean the acquisition of skills is tied to a progression of power vital for the first game experience of completing a chapter for the first time. You learn Flare before you learn Fireball and later you learn Meteor Shower. Those skills will never know balance in any true sense, they were made for progression! ArenaNet experimented a lot with progression. Prophecies had a manually crafted skill progression. You really had to go to the toughest places to get the best skills. Factions was somewhat all over the place and some people never changed their build throughout the game. Nightfall restored the skill progression in part with the elite skills; although the strongest skills were placed around the third act of the game to allow for brutal environmental effects in the fourth act to still be a challenge. EotN sadly replaced skill progression with grind, because after a test run in nightfall, people really liked it. Titani's comments all boil down to "I hate you" and "I want it to be someway I can't describe myself". Even if you do describe it, you fail to recognize the whole the suggestion would tear into other parts of the game. The reality is that ArenaNet did something with GW for which there was no precedence in computer gaming. It is easy critizising some failures after playing the game for an insane amount of time. Now imagine creating that without the benefit of thousands of hours of playing the game. THAT is what Mr. Game Balancer had to do. @Poki: I am with you on the "trying to exploit" thing, but I still believe it can be done. Mainly because the regular players reaping the rewards of a 320% increased drop rate simply do not have as much time as the hardcore grinders. That in itself lowers the drop-rate in the same breath. On the other hand the grinders would not earn more than before. Hence the gap would be closing since normal players would now get as much as grinders. The inflation would accelerate but in contrast to now inflation would no longer widen the gap. How you play no longer is the issue in determining how wide the gap is, only time spend would be. Which is ok with Anet now. But you are right, it has to be one exploit free miracle of an upgrade. But ranged triggers are in the game, so there is hope. On top of that, ArenaNet really already tried all other approaches I can think of. So there aren't that many option left and just doing nothing is certainly not one of them.4thvariety 17:36, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Any idea what "increasing drop rate if in close proximity of other players" would do for Mobway? *laughs* I'm sorry, good try tho. Rose Of Kali 17:43, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Let me tell you a story. I played during Prophecies time, and there was no need for the word "Balance", because Guild Wars was balanced. Top guilds got where they got because they were good, people completed Ring of Fire islands not because they randomly pressed buttons for best result, but because they knew what they were doing. Me and a friend managed to get really pr0 and finished some of the game with him bonding me and I damaged everything, and so we got past the desert with that kind of tactics. It was fun, I found people I can talk to about stuff and learn from them. That's pretty much what makes MMORPGs so fun, compared to a Korean Grindfest (they're not really MMORPGs). People actually played the game and knew what was going on, and it was all fun and games and blah blah blah. I even played high-end PvP for a while, and the best part was that after the games, both teams sometimes talked to each other about what they did and how they could improve themselves.

The game was not about progression, it wasn't about how much domage you can stuff into 8 skills and then pack 2 monks and gogogo. It had a meaning, in RA it was truly random where you met random builds. Everybody tried anything, and sometimes it worked out. Even though I know what you would think that way, it wasn't.

I eventually left, because well, I don't need to give you a reason, but it wasn't in any way a GW related problem, as it was the best game I have ever, ever played.

Notice the past tense. Was.

Factions came out. PvE skills came out, mostly untested. Powercreep was invented, along with Shadow Steps, Ritualist Heals, how obsolete Ritualist Spirit Spammers were, and many more problems. I think that at that point, A.net knew they screwed up, mostly after some of the players lost the excitement of new content and inspected it. They told them the problem. "oshit", A.net said, "we really screwed up this time." "Yeah, but we get a fucking huge batch of money!" "Fuck, you're right! Hey, let's try heroin!!!", so things slipped, and so the streets were littered with crap already.

Only 6 months after Factions came out, which is 1/4 of the time it took them to release Prophecies, Nightfall, an almost equally big expansion came out. It provided an enormous amount of content and skills. Oh guess what? Most of that content was untested. While A.net was doing a huge delve into the unknown, the least they could've done is check community response. They didn't.

Searing Flames was introduced, and people said "Oshit, this is some pretty OP stuff." And so, Searing Flames was a must in any team, no matter which. Look at what Auron did. Speedclears were a gimmick (which was also a new term), and people found new and exciting ways to destroy the ladder with their own OP shit that took no tactics. "Fuck this", my friends said, and some left GW. They sometimes told me what happened, but I really didn't believe them; I knew NCSoft and ArenaNet had a good first go at Prophecies, so why would they fuck up their game so hard later on? Was it the heroin perhaps?

One way or another, Guild Wars' first non-campaign Expansion came out, and again, it only took A.net about 5 months to test a flood of new content. Oh guess what? They fucked it up. Again. At that point, I rejoined GW, and I was literally at shock. I didn't believe how much it changed.

Compare the first paragraph to what there is today. I didn't even mention PvE only skills, heroes, titles, Red Resign Day, [rawr] and many many many others. You know what? Fuck this. I don't know why I give a damn any more; A.net completely fucked their game, didn't even listen to the players when we pretty much punched them in the face with a giant stamper saying that, and they also completely ignored what one of their own founders said: "When you update your game, you will get a lot of shit from your playerbase, containing flames and how bad you are for what you do. But don't worry, people do that because they love your game and only want it better", or something around that lines. Well, apparently, A.net decided that they only address Korean Grindfesters as players. You know what? "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" any more. Titani Ertan 18:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) @4thVariety: You're wrong. If you give 3 times the Ectos to normal players, farmers will also get AT LEAST 3 times the Ectos. (They'll just switch from speed clearing, to hardcore nuking) Inflation will cause the prices to plummet. Ectos will be in a bigger crisis then the Dollar has ever seen. You cannot do something that will effect both. You have to buff "normal play" or nerf "farming". In both cases you'll have exactly the same result, except for the fact that the first example causes a decrease in the item value and is harder, while the second causes an increase in value and is easier. — Poki#3 (talk) 18:09, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

As is Mobway players do not gain that much, only the solofarmers of said team do and they would get the shaft in my scenario. The idea is to close the reift between solofarmers and teamplayers. That is the most important rift. Even if solofarmers turned into teamplayers all of a sudden, they would not earn more. Right now they make 800% of what a member in an Ursan team made in the past. They will defend that with their teeth, so there is no way lowering their income. Raising other players income is the only option left. Mobway is a glorified lottery ticked for the UW/FoW chest which in itself has a 0% chance of giving you something useful. Only if you do three runs a day you might see something in a year. @Titani: Sry, dude, it's Friday night, there is a party I need to be. I'll answer another time. Promised 4thvariety 18:16, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

The amount of badness here is overwhelming, and I had to fight my urge to post a very large copypasta of my own for a substantial amount of time, during which I got EC'd and more badness entered this page. So, now I'm going to to discard my old troll post and tear your pathetic walls of text into tiny pieces.

"How does having hindsight improve the game" Gee, god forbid the developers learn from their mistakes. That would be awful!

"Factions release the whole concept of balance was a big unknown. Even top guilds were wondering" No. Shut up. You have no idea of what you are talking about. Most guilds knew exactly what balance meant, and that's why a large portion of the "elite" playerbase quit after the factions championship.

"You learn Flare before you learn Fireball and later you learn Meteor Shower" terrible terrible terrible terrible. If you really think that balance can actually be boiled down to this, in any context at all, you should really not talk about balance.

"Those skills will never know balance in any true sense, they were made for progression" Ahaha...no.

"Titani's comments all boil down to "I hate you" and "I want it to be someway I can't describe myself"" Again, no. Titani didn't do a great job in telling you why you're being quite silly, but he never did this.

"But different tiers of skill powers, allow for the game to have an increase in the skillpower over the course of the game, which is the only power gain a GW character will know" Again, you have no idea what balance means, or how the game actually works. The only power gain a GW character knows does not exist. The only power gain a GW player knows is the increase of his own skills over time, not how deep into the game he has gotten.

"It is easy critizising some failures after playing the game for an insane amount of time. Now imagine creating that without the benefit of thousands of hours of playing the game. THAT is what Mr. Game Balancer had to do" I'll give you this one, because, really, I agree with it. Though you do conveniently forget to mention how easy it is to fix a game after many decent players have explained (in rather graphic detail too) how to do so.

"As is Mobway players do not gain that much" You best be joking. What is your definition of much, anyhow?

"he idea is to close the reift between solofarmers and teamplayers. That is the most important rift" Why? In a game where everyone is farming, why does it matter if one group makes more than the other? Comparing cat shit to dog shit doesn't make any of them less shit.

"800% of what a member in an Ursan team made in the past. They will defend that with their teeth, so there is no way lowering their income" Have you heard of power creep? It's mostly a PvP concept, but it applies here as well. The whole ordeal goes for something like this: X profession makes 3e/hour solo farming, Y profession makes 4e/hour solo farming. Prof X is buffed, now making 10e/hour. Y whines like a crybaby, they are buffed to make 20e/hour. X whines, and so on and so forth. The ideal measure against this is to not buff X in the first place, or not to listen to Y if the buff is necessary, but right now, GW is way, way beyond that. Everyone is crying their eyes out just to stop the power creep. The game didn't need Shadow Form, it was better off without SF. The same goes for all the PvE skills, all the insanely-difficult-can't-beat'em-without-pve-skills type of bosses (re:Mallyx). But they added them in anyway. I'm not against variety or new content, but I do have a problem with it when it breaks the game due to terribad design.

"You accuse me of "slamming the door into skill balance's face"" He's right.

"but in reality all I ask is that people acknowledge that beyond levels 1-20 there is a somewhat meaningful power-progression of elite skills you acquire." From a deathly PvE perspective, I'll accept that this is partially true. Is this a good thing? No. Is this a necessary part of the game? No. Does it support balance in anyway whatsoever? Also No. Have people argued against it? No, just because we had better things to argue about.

"If skill selection is supposed to be a meaningful element of the game, then some skills always have to be more powerful than others" This premise is wrong. This is how you may see it, this is how Anet may see it (I really have no idea how they made some balance decisions), but this is wrong. The order in which you acquire skills has -should- have nothing to do with how they are balanced. This isn't some JRPG where you have to get Ultima to beat the superduper boss in the end. It is what it has devolved into, in way, but that's not okay.

"All this from a point of view of a regular GW player, casual player that would like to earn some money ingame must feel like a ping pong ball.." FYI, anyone who enters UW with SF on his bar is not casual. Anyone buying dungeon runs is not casual. Anyone grinding for fissure armor is not fucking casual.

"No, we have to enter the storm so to speak, which makes for better gameplay honestly" Do you honestly believe that? Do you? Mindless monsters with more brains than brawn, do you really believe that offers you good PvE experience? Tell me this, in your opinion, was Hard Mode well designed?

"Now imagine creating that without the benefit of thousands of hours of playing the game" Funny thing, balancers are expected to play the game they balance, if not on a competitive level (though the better balanced games do have those kinds of balancers) then on a frequent basis, to understand what they are working on.

tl,dr: Lrn2balance. NuVII 21:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

ITT: tl;dr and trolls trolling trolls. –Jette 22:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I aspire to be as short as you, Jette. NuVII 23:56, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Build creation, build selection, strategy, execution, and luck. That is what wins matches. Different PvP modes require different approaches making different skills more or less viable. All I hear is people saying that having acquired a high degree of execution skills entitles them to be insurmountable by any other factors. Such behavior (and patches enforcing that) threaten PvP, as it creates a barrier of entry which most people don't care about, making the most simple PvP modes the most played. Because it is hard for players to carry that sort of entitlement into a random match. The same goes for PvE. SF is a balanced skill. The player has to do a certain twisting of fingers to achieve a reward state of invincibility. If anything the concept of achieving that on your own might be flawed; as a team certainly not. The question is whether you are willing to subscribe to that solo-invincibility design as well as the resulting (un)social gameplay and money distribution in the game. Sure, the player is skillful in maintaining this combo and managing aggro, but is the resulting disengagement in social gameplay really that beneficial to GW? Gold and rewards are an encouragement to play GW in a certain way. tell them what they are doing is right. ArenaNet wants to keep the game alive, its player happy and sell more copies. From that point of view a skill is only negative when it impacts social environment of GW in such a matter that more player leave than new ones enter. SF driving people apart is more problematic than its invincibility. hence my suggestion of including designs to bring poeple together again; even in the pursuit of grind and wealth. As for PvP, next time you loose to “a noob” playing a skill you had no chance against, don't come flaming into a forum, feel happy for keeping the game alive. Execution can't and should never be everything. Better luck next time. After all, “being curb-stomped” is not a game you buy at retail for $50. ANY player deserves his chance. Even if some “pros” have to swallow a few bitter pills as a result. That is balance, not Izzy tweaking a few numbers until they reach some equilibrium in favor of execution only.4thvariety 12:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) "Balanced skill. A skill requiring you to press a button in order to execute." — 4thvariety dictionary ...
Go PvP for 10 seconds, and you'll know you're wrong. In case you're retarded, I'll tell you that you're wrong: You're wrong. I don't need to tell you why. It's now obvious to me that you disregard any previous comments anyone in this topic made. Titani Ertan 13:03, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

@ 4th, if you want to be taken seriously, I suggest not saying things like SF is a balanced skill. Also, it is true that a mixture of builds and strategy/skill wins matches, this is true anywhere, but in GW builds make the team more than strategy/skill, meaning that a bad team with good builds can easily beat a good team with average builds. That is not balanced, and you can say it is until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that you're wrong. Pros swallow bitter losses to pros. In baseball, would you expect a major league team to lose to a peewee team, because the peewee team had much better equipment? Would you say that is a fair judge of ability? Not at all. It shouldn't be execution only, but execution should be a larger part than it is. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 13:07, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok guys... I think this has become enough of a wall of text. I can pretty much guarantee that Regina is A) not going to want to read this, B) not going to want to respond to this, and C) would like this discussion to go elsewhere. Please stop bloating staff talk pages (especially during a long holiday weekend, where they are NOT going to be around) with these endless discussions. Either come up with suggestions for how you would like things changed, and put them in the Feedback:Game suggestions area, and discuss them there, or take it to a fansite forum someplace. This page is for addressing Regina, regarding the content of her journal page. -- Wyn talk 13:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Why would devs read their talk pages when they're amazing tl;dr's full of arguments? ---Chaos- (talk) -- 15:14, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better if we moved this to Marcus' talk page? Erasculio 15:57, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Hello, PvE players, please avoid these walls of text. ---©#@o$- (moo) -- 20:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:User_page#User_talk_page_restrictions Idiot. ---Chaos- (moo) -- 22:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:User_page#User_talk_page_restrictions Idiot. ---Chaos- (moo) -- 22:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to my talk page. I do enjoy to have such nice statements from people of your kind here, but I consider moving whole threads into my talk page as vandalism as neither me nor any other of the authors has written it in this space. If you have the forum admins assignment to clean their threads you may delete them, but not move them in my space. Marcus The Cube -- 22:17, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Just archive it, damnit. You're not allowed to remove comments and that crap doesn't belong on the dev's pages. I mean, hell, they're c/p'ing chessboards? ---Chaos- (moo) -- 22:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand that you removed content with the explicit agreement of Regina from her talk page. That's fine with me. But you can not move it elsewhere without the authors and the new hosts agreement. And I do not agree that you use my talk page as trash bin for threads you want to get rid of for whatever reason. Marcus The Cube 22:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand that you often feel very uncomfortable with texts on your usertalk, but understand that I had nowhere else to move it, and it was suitable to move it to the starter of the thread. If someone who actually read through the discussion properly has a good place to move it then sure, but I won't bother. ---Chaos- (moo) -- 22:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest, it fit rather nicely in here. That said, I do not like small talk pages. Just put it here, end of problem :D! Harrier 22:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I posted something on Reginas' talk page like you post now something on mine. In order to communicate. So you mean if I find your comments "shitty" to talk in your language I just move it to your talk page, and all are happy? Marcus The Cube 22:43, 17 December 2009 (UTC)