User talk:Morgaine/GW2 Worries

I'd love to hear of reasons why I should not be worried!

Post your comments here. :-)

Dumbed down skill sets in GW2

As an addendum to this, if the skills themselves are less complex, what does that say about the rest of the content in the game? ANet got away fine with adding myriad mobs with vastly different abilities in various zones in GW1 because players could build to counter them, but if the skills are all generic vanilla damage abilities, are the areas themselves going to be generic, vanilla and facerollable? The lack of complexity doesn't bode well for the PvE content. -Auron 22:18, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yet with pvx provided and crap heroes (discord lol) everyone used the same builds anyways. Only a select few veterans of GW that played every profession and knows every skill and how it works can be smart and original enough to even make the game remotely enjoyable and with the originality that all the 1000s of skills allowed. A net eventually lost to the mob mentality and gave into it with the heroes. Unless you play pvp a lot, you really saw no originality whatsoever because we are not allowed to use heroes. Of course there is the problem with pvx and pvp. So now we will be all the same builds with no chance of originality in gw2 besides character creation and aesthetics (mostly) appearance. It was our fault as players for being weak minded not ANET.Yumiko ^,~ 23:29, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Your argument assumes that the average player uses the wiki and PvX, which is clearly not the case. I bet that not more than 20% of the player population has even heard of them, and less than 10% actually use them, so I think you're confusing hardcore with the average player. That said, it appears that you are right in the end result: everyone will be using pretty much the same skills, because the diversity in depth of GW1 skills simply won't exist. That's a worry. Morgaine 22:26, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

As soon as new players or returners (usually the 20% these days) in local or guild/ally asks about something in game or where to go I always hear one or two things accompanied by "noob!", "Use wiki/help under the f 10 key." or "Use pvx for builds" also they can be really harsh and be "Uninstall noob!" I on the other hand as a veteran of gw will kindly help tthem as much as I can even when I'm too busy to party with them its the least I can do. The 10% you speak of are those of us that hate PvX and what it did to GW and its community as a whole or those that only use it for reference and not full out laziness. I'm a hardcore player yes you are right on that one, but I do not use PvX 100% of the time or rely on its use. I kinda wish less would rely on it as some sort of god or nanny to hand feed them.Yumiko ^,~ 05:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that a well-designed game should cater for many diverse styles of play and depths of involvement. Some people enjoy figuring out everything by themselves, some are here only to strut around in social armor and couldn't care less about build design, and others enjoy self-sufficiency but also like to read the GW wiki or PvX for new ideas or hints. The player base is a broad spectrum, and stating "It should be like THIS" is invariably wrong because it just expresses a personal preference, and people vary. Supporting a wide spectrum of preferences is also important commercially for a games company like Anet/NCsoft, because a narrow design misses potential customers. So don't hate PvX and similar community help sites. They're a necessary part of the game for a substantial portion of the player base, and contribute towards the game's commercial success. Morgaine 19:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

GW2 will be a lonely place

"After the colossal success of henchmen and heroes in GW1"
Personally — and many will agree with me on this — I strongly believe that the introduction of heroes (hell, Nightfall altogether) ruined the rest of what Guild Wars really was all about. Heroes may help you reduce the time and need to find a party, but it made all of the game one massive faceroll. - Infinite - talk 22:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with Infinite. When I came back in 2009 I had to do everything on my own mostly. I henched nearly everything and when I got heroes I did the same. I didn't get NF and Eotn until winter 2009. Yet everyone these days Speed clears and uses discord way. No one respects GW or plays it properly anymore. I am glad for GW 2 throwing out the old stuff as I can finally play with people and work together the way its meant to be played the right way.Yumiko ^,~ 23:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I can't agree with either of you, Infinite and Yumiko.

Playing GW with other players for PvE is in almost all cases an extremely boring, unsatisfying, unchallenging and unfriendly/lonely mode of play:

• It's boring because everything becomes trivial and quick to accomplish.
• It's unsatisfying because success is almost guaranteed even if your contribution is really poor or you just tag along and leech.
• It's unchallenging because you don't need to be tactical or strategic as you just follow the leader.
• And it's unfriendly and lonely because you never actually interact with anyone properly, it's just a headlong rush to kill everything. 7 people around you, zero friends or genuine people. And quite often it's even worse than that, when the team contains 10 year-olds without any developed sensibilities, or grown-up subcretins.

So no, I think you have this back to front. It's the henchmen and heroes that made GW interesting and a challenge in PvE, required you to think, allowed you to try alternative strategies that a group of people would not use. And H/H don't quit, they don't get bored, they don't leech, they don't tell you that you are an inferior creature compared to their uberness, and in general, they're not the pain in the ass that other humans are.

Of course, there is a role for multi-player groups as it can be nice to add humans to the team when you want or need to , and it's usually nice to play with most guildies if you've socialized with them for a while as well. But it would be quite terrible if teaming with people were forced upon players as the only option, and it would ruin the game for many people. Morgaine 22:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

You are forgetting that Guild Wars before Nightfall was very different. We only had henchmen back then and even if you were a top-of-the-top dog, you'd need strong allies and friends to clear content. It was not a random collection of pick-up party members, a set-up which started dominating after the introduction of heroes. The PuG mentality was never dominant before the release of Nightfall. Back then you'd actually play the game with people online, a core aspect of an MMO. I certainly do not have this back to front, it's a matter of seeing things in their correct perspective. Alternatively, the vocal minority is entitled to prefer heroes over players, it's fine by me. - Infinite - talk 19:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no "correct" or "incorrect" perspective for an MMO, there are just perspectives which provide fun and others that do not. Before GW appeared, there was no shortage of MMOs which by using your allegedly "correct perspective" delivered very little fun but a lot of pain for players --- EverQuest comes to mind. GW was designed in response to all the problems that were standard in the MMOs that preceded it, and it succeeded brilliantly in eliminating them. Perhaps you should read some of the interviews with ArenaNet's Jeff Strain from the early days of GW, in which he would regularly describe the ills that plague MMOs and how GW's instancing overcomes them. Sadly, in the corporate rush to make GW2 appeal to the unwashed masses of WoW, Jeff's very insightful comments are being forgotten. There's trouble ahead. Morgaine 10:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

As a visually impaired player, I often encounter frustration from other players due to my occasional difficulties seeing all that happens on the screen. I seldom see drops and chat as I usually concentrate on the compass to follow game play. Sometimes other players will be patient and help me along with difficulties, other times they can be quite impatient and condescending. Heros and henchmen are infinitely patient and are always around to serve in quests and missions where other players may not show up for hours. Having heros and henchmen available has made the game accessable and enjoyable for me and I am grateful to ArenaNet for providing them. Heros can also add a new dimenstion to gameplay as it allows a lot of experimentation with various skills and builds and offers a challenge to create a NPC build that can beat various NPC foe. For these reasons I'd prefer to see some sort of NPC assistance available in GW2. DahliaT 11:36, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Here, here! :-) And a very good point about accessibility. Morgaine 22:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The points you made are very valid as it is a speed clear and "fastest to the finish is the best" mentality now and no one really cares whether you want a drop they left around or not (had a big argument in ally over this just today). As infinite said, it wasn't like this before 2007- early 2009, and when I came back in 2009 with a better machine, I played like did in the old days only relying on the friendships I made along the way and whatever henchmen I had in that area. I did not have Nightfall until Christmas 2009 as a gift and EotN until winter of 2009 when it came out.

I can also say I have a disability. I am heavily ADD/ADHD and I can't focus on too much at one time. I didn't let it stop me. Most of the time I made do with H/H and only asked for help from others when it was impossible (hard mode was usually when this occurred). Heroes ruined a lot for some, but were a boon to many others. I at least had a understanding guild to help me. other are not so fortunate.

I know there is no right or wrong way to play this wonderful, sometimes broken, and frustrating game of ours; yet, the hero mechanic has come to such a point that it didn't allow for the vast originality and customization you claim (see the various anti pvx/discord arguments everywhere on some user's pages) they (ANET) can't do anything but take it away in GW 2 as they clearly meant for it to be as you and many others like you envisioned. Also though, if you really need people to help you and be as helpful as you need us to be... you got us in Wiki as we are usually not self-righteous pricks. I never thought you were wrong but this game has changed for the worst.Yumiko ^,~ 05:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

It's worth noting that those of us who find immense value in AI sidekicks don't share your dismay about where the game has gone. Quite the opposite, it's become more and more engrossing as the complexity of builds has increased, much more challenging because we can attempt very hard tasks with 7-hero teams that previously could only be done with other people, and much more satisfying because when we succeed then it is through our own personal effort. The fact that for you the game has changed for the worse seems to indicate that you are not capitalizing on its strengths. Morgaine 01:13, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I know this is a bit of an old chat, but it sort of got to me. I think everyone here got valid points. I can completely relate to the dislike of being forced to play with other people you know nothing about (especially when really young people are allowed to play). Personally, I havn't played with random players/PUGs in many years, and I can't see myself doing it again anytime soon. However, if it wasn't for the few friends I still have in GW, I wouldn't be playing anymore. GW is an online game, and as such it's designed to attract people who wish(for some kinds) of sociality. If I didn't want to play with anyone at all in GW, I would go play a dedicated single player game, because they are specifically designed to feed a single players gaming needs. Their development are more heavily centered around storyline, and including the player in the world. Where as online games tend to be forced to make room for everyone, balancing out skills and content, like quests (or missions). It might just be my own personal opinion, but the single player games I've played over the years, before and during GW, has been much more impressive gamewise. They have just been more intrigueing and impressive, graphics-wise, gameplay-wise and storyline-wise. But they all grow boring after a while of course, because of the lack of social interaction. So GW has kept me entertained for 5 years/10,000 hours, and the average single player game has been given an average of 300 hours of my life. So I'm not saying GW or online games are worse quality than single player games, just that the time spent making them, is focused very differently, because it's 2 different kinds of gaming-entertainment. My point is this: different type of games, for different situations. There is a reason why people still play single player games (and it's not because of the internet/subscription expenses) Gaudy Gourd God 23:55, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

There is some truth in what you say, but I think there are more than just two types of game, not only single-player and enforced multiplayer. There are also shades of grey, like single-player with all-H/H in PvE zones but socializing in towns. This is not a minority interest --- the colossal preoccupation with vanity armor in GW1 speaks for itself, in volumes. People rarely look at each other's armor in a fight zone, they're generally too busy running and fighting. They show off in towns, and that's multiplayer socializing.

Also, there is a spectrum between 1+7 and 8+0 players+heroes. A 2-player team with 3 heroes apiece is really interesting and flexible, and definitely social (more tactics than in 8+0). And frankly 8+0 is very often non-social at all despite the presence of 8 humans --- we see that happen every day with Zaishen quest groups, which are totally impersonal.

So, I can't really agree with the premise that eliminating H/H automatically makes the game more social and hence more interesting. Sometimes it can. But sometimes it just makes it a pain in the backside, not fun at all. Surely everyone can agree that the end goal is fun? Well, for many of us, being forced to group is the greatest non-fun possible. We group when we want to in GW1, not because we're forced to do so. People vary a lot, and it's important to give them options. Morgaine 20:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)