User talk:Paryll Nur/archive

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Please do not advertise third party programs on the main space of the wiki. Erasculio 13:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

If this program is widely used, it might be worth mentioning, but not on every article. I think it would be a lot better to link it in one single article, as a tool. - anja 13:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The main article should not be deleted because its within the GWW content policy, but all the links on tenuous related pages should go.- TheRave 13:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Answer from Paryll

First, I would like to emphasize that this is not a commercial product but something made by a Guild master and player. The question is: Does Wiki want to be a really democratic institution taking good care of its base or is it a pompous journal that only the few control? I don't have a judgement on that yet.

For myself, I use Wiki, that I happen to like. I also notice the shortcomings of Wiki. At this point, I don't know if this is intentionnal or not. But MappingOut has been blocked often in the past and this is the reason I decided to devote a page to it. As a Guild leader, this question comes up often enough: Why we search Wiki and there is no mention of MappingOut? Beginners thirst for tools to help them. The question is: How serious is WikiGW to really help their customer base, and to be the most informed place about all things related to GW. The question stands, and I don't have an answer yet. Future events will convince me one way or another.

I contributed important tips anonymously before as well as recommended your site often in the past. This is the reason I created an account: To make my own contributions as well as correct certain things that are confusing, poorly written or poorly organized. My goal was to improve on it with my contributions. Now I'm starting to wonder if it is not a private club instead. The final verdict on this has yet to come.

Some of your regulations ought to be looked at seriously, if you want to attract contributions on your site. Keep in mind that probably less than 1/100 of users is willing to contribute anything at all.

May the light shine on you, this is my best wish.

Paryll

You seem to have GuildWars Wiki confused with a corporate entity. We don't have any "customers" here; we are all users with equivalent rights. We work on a consensus basis, which means that it is not one person or even the majority that decide things. Rather, we discuss things, such as deletions and article retention, to come to a decision on matters, as is going on right as we speak with the MappingOut article.

In my opinion, as it stands, the MappingOut article right now does look like an advertisement. Sure, the creator might not be making any money off it, but the policies of the wiki clearly state that articles created solely for the purpose of advertising or popularizing third-party products are not to be retained. I have used MappingOut before, but I didn't find out about it here, nor do I believe that most users would look here for such things as the main purpose of GWW is to document the game. As Erasculio pointed out, TexMod was made popular first, which warranted its own article, while the MappingOut article appears to be trying to do the opposite--that is, using the wiki to become popular.

As for our policies (or "regulations" as you call them), you are free to discuss and propose changes or amendments to the policies if you so desire. Again, we are not ArenaNet; we have employees from ArenaNet active on the wiki to allow easier communication between the playerbase and the developers, but they have no more power here than you or me.

Oh, and you don't need to start a whole new section to reply to someone. Just reply below in a new paragraph (like I'm doing now) with the appropriate number of colons (:). Kokuou 18:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I read the message discussing this article and I found the discussion to be based on ignorance and prejudice. Now there is something we don't know, must be bad. This is not a proper attitude by any organization that really wants to encourage people in helping and contributing. The purpose of my page is not advertisement. I don't have anything to benifit from Aylee who is an Italian player. I have to say this though, his work is quite remarkable and what you have is a lousy link to Version 1.8. Talk about a group that has the latest information! Wake up, man his latest version is Ver 3.11 and is like day and night.

I imagined and thought much better of Wiki when I did not know how things were going on and the thinking process that leads to decisions. I'm starting to understand why some pages in Wiki are so crappy and lack important informations. There is a sclerosis of ideas installing itself that is not healthy. For your own sake, I would look for new blood.

To finish this, there is a lot of small things that makes an organization or a project a great one. Bureaucracy and petty thinking is usually not the main cause of success. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Paryll Nur (talk).

Even if it is true, which I doubt, calling people ignorant and prejudiced isn't going to get you very far. And while we may have an outdated link to MappingOut, that doesn't change the fact that it is 3rd-party software, which we are inherently hesitant to endorse. You say that the wiki should allow all information to be posted; well, that just doesn't work. This site is about game information. That's its purpose. Please try to understand what the wiki is for and the culture here before you condemn resistance to your ideas. --JonTheMon 21:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree on a few points, leading me to believe we're looking at slightly different talk pages. For example, "Now there is something we don't know, must be bad." I see what you're getting at with this, but with the information I read, I'd say something more along the lines of, "Now there is something we don't know, it has a chance of being bad. In addition, if we expand the retention policy to allow third-party programs of all stripes, we don't know what will come through." Suffice it to say, though, that I think that, despite your insults to the GWW community at large, programs such as MappingOut may deserve at least a conglomerate page like List of fansites. Sure, we'd need to indicate that they'd be third-party devices, just as we do with Guide to modifying in-game graphics, and that not all of them are verified to be virus-proof.

This wiki is full of people with very different perspectives and personalities. Sometimes, not everyone pokes their head into a single discussion, so don't judge all of GWW by six people (That's about the number of people conversing there before I posted) who are just trying to determine how to take care of this sort of thing by policy and by precedent. Remember also not to violate GWW:NPA, even though I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to attacking GWW as a whole. We're only human, and there's no direct precedent for an article being solely for a third-party program. I'm sure that my fellow contributors would like to have a solution to please as many people as possible, as well as not letting the wiki become something of which scammers or their ilk take advantage. Also, it would probably be best to post on the actual talk page; after all, splitting the discussion up may lead to confusion. It's like trying to have two different conversations at once, each with different people in different rooms! Just remember to sign with four tildes, ~~~~, after you've written your comment. Also, please use this quote when feeling particularly hot under the collar: "Let me never fall into the trap of thinking that I am persecuted simply because I am disagreed with." That's from Ralph Waldo Emerson, and used by one of our own bureaucrats, Aiiane. I know it's helped me quite a bit. --חיו Chaiyo Kaldor 22:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

If all we have is "a lousy link to version 1.8", then why don't you change it, update it to a link to the latest version? This is still a wiki.. - anja 19:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Answer from Paryll

Your point is well taken. I will change this article to reflect the dangers of third party software. I want my page to be informative. I may have failed in this respect. If it is the case, I would expect to be told of what does not meet criteria. My main disagreement is that something new is rejected on personnal opinions. I would hope that controversive ideas should be looked at, on their merit. I could live with a decision that is based on carefully well thought ideas. My idea of a Useful Wiki is this: Does it really help Some of our User Base? If it is the case, than it should be allowed on this merit. Who are the Users of Wiki? Well all sort of peoples, really. Some are expert gamers with years of experience like the people at Wiki. Others have some experience in some areas, but are very lacking in others and still others are totally mystified by the whole thing. And who are we, to know what some users really need? I see all sorts as Guild officer. This is the core of my frustration: Different peoples need Different help and certainly we can't assume what somebody will need. Granted that i'm not the most diplomatic about it. You most certainly have a point there.

I tried to reply through other means without success. This certainly reflects my ignorance on this subject. So you're invited to enlighten me on which ways to communicate with the right people more effectively. Paryll Nur 21:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Paryll

I don't have much to say, but have you found Guide_to_modifying_in-game_graphics/Player_made_modifications yet? --JonTheMon 21:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Archiving old topics

Please note that you may not simply blank your talk page, per the user page policy. Please consider archiving your talk page by moving the contents to User talk:Paryll Nur/archive. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Thanks, -- Indochine talk 20:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)