User talk:Qaletaqa/Archive May 2009

May 14th Update Discussion

→ moved from User talk:Linsey Murdock

→ moved from User Talk:Qaletaqa

At this point, "fixing" 600 smite and Shadow Form would probably make more people mad than happy... so... yeah... --Shadowphoenix 20:46, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Does it even matter..? tbh if people want to waste hours on getting a cool looking hat in a video game why not let them? it doesn't even give them any advantage. --Cursed Angel 20:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

"Shadow form and 600 smite is how people play this game now" <-------- reaching.... so hard.... must... reach .... harder. Shadow, can I rage... plz? 000.00.00.00 21:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

So... where can i find info on this "may 14th" update?...--Fighterdoken 21:22, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

My question is: What disadvantage is people using Shadow Form putting you at? Why does this concern you so greatly? Shadow Form has already been nerfed 2 or 3 times. --MushaTalk 21:27, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Reset Indent. I actually dislike the fact that i'm unable to use Shadow Form on any of my current characters that have finished the game lol, just started to make an assassin to be able to farm that easy and to finish DoA solo, I don't like playing with people because 9/10 times or more, someone (by goeing afk) or something (disconnects) ruin it. Heroes or the ability to solo it are much more reliable then people. And where is this "14th may" update info? Haven't seen any. I always decide too late to join the "current" trends, I hate it (I never even used a bar with "Ursan Blessing" in it, now it's practically useless).Qaletaqa 21:37, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Ursan is probably the easiest way to beat mallyx still. It's also good for for DoA (HM w/ an imbagon). However, for DoA cryway rules~>Sins WDB 22:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

It's only may 7th you won't find it up yet.~>Sins WDB 22:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Shame humans are always finding out new ways to get what they want i.e Perma Shadow Form. Even with a nerf of duration or nerf of whatever this skill will stay useable in it' s current form. Fox007 22:27, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The line of least resistance. --Arduinna 22:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

dont complain they told you that because of the nature of this last mega update that there wouldnt be a skill update untill may. and now they are telling you that there will not be an up date for stills untill next Thursday. also nether of thous builds or tactics need to be nerffed any more then they already are. because what you will see happen is areas that once were do able with thouse skills will be come rather dead, take doa after ursan.-- Zesbeer 23:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Game balance matters. If you don't agree, we have nothing to argue about. Also: this has been an issue since laste 2008, so it's not just that skill updates were pushed forward because of the last content update. They were thrown under a bus and left to die for many months. Anyway, i'm just lamenting. The ship has sailed, and they screwed up. It's way too late now. And it just strikes me as odd, because although some players don't give a damn, mostly those who exploit the broken mechanics, the COMPANY should. ANd they did. And then they forgot about it. Also: skill update was mentioned by Regina on guru so that's how i know the date 201.6.66.4 00:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Except there wasn't any real content in the so called content update. No serious, what they called "content" most other MMORPGs wouldn't even dare to call a "bug fix". Most new "content" revolves around repeating already existing stuff. But I have to admit it was a brilliant marketing gag to tell people this "content" was the reason they were working for months for so they weren't able to do a proper job at skill balancing during that time. --82.83.55.60 09:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, just shut up and quit the game. 145.94.74.23 14:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

145, please go cut yourself. Xhata 15:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought about this possible 600 smite and Shadow form nerf and if they nerf every possible way of farming or make it harder and harder to be able to, then I think they are gonna lose alot of players. Let the people who did everything in the game to be able to farm for what they want or need to get the titles they still don't have, heck let anyone farm for what they want. Don't make them repeat every mission or quest in the game, let them repeat whatever they want to. There is no real problem with SF or 600 smite, well there is but only for the people who can't or don't wanna do it. I'm not able to and it doesn't bother me that other people do it, also it doesn't affect the way I play the game. It just makes things cheaper for me, like ectos, ow yeah that's right the people who have alot of ectos don't like seeing the price drop, but how did they get them? there is absolutly no need to nerf those two things, let the game have those things because I think it doesn't ruin anyones gameplay. Jealous and/or wealthy people, the jealous ones can't do it the wealthy ones can't stand the fact that prices drop so other people can afford what they can afford, now that I think about that I actually think the game is better off with them because it makes the gap between the rich and the poor smaller, beeing equal would be nice. Thats all folks. Qaletaqa 01:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Qualetaqa breaking a good game never helps to sell a sequel. Anyway I couldn't care less for game economy, as I almost never trade with other players. I'm watching it from purely balance and mathematic perspective. Shadow form is overpowered, Linsey accepted the fact.

With the nerf balancing of shadow form they gain better reputation as game makers. And let me tell you. Nothing reasoned the shadow form buff in the first place. that was a design mistake. A HUGE design mistake. Even Wyn cannot deny the fact that there has been an unnecessary buff to the skill, and the game balancers still don't think that permament invincibility is a problem. wanna see proof? Linsey made that mistake (because izzy was working on gw2 at that time) and it is her time to correct the mistake. Good luck with that Linsey! Boro 05:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't need proof, and yes it might be a design mistake but I don't see it like that, plus it doesn't ruin your gameplay, does it? If it was PvP then it would've been a HUGE mistake but it isn't. And actually the skill itself isn't the problem, everyone has to know that they combine skills to get the permanent effect (and by "they" I mean Permasins). There is no problem with SF. The only way I can think of it is a problem I already explained, rich people don't like seeing other people getting "rich" or people beeing jeolous because they can't permasin and let me tell you EVERYONE can if they only make an assassin. BTW you do have to explain to me how they broke the game, because to me it doesn't look broken. And to be honest, it sucks that they nerf every way to earn a bit of extra gold. Why? well the people that are rich now (in-game) are either lucky to have had a unique minipet and sell it, because they farmed, or because they buy low and sell high. Also if they are gonna take away every possible way of farming then Guild Wars will become BORING because there wouldn't be an easier way to make gold then just do missions, quests, or whatever. And some people have done those a dozen times or more. I'm gonna go play now. Qaletaqa 06:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to adress some stuff, Yes they do get a better reputation as game designer if they balance it. But everything in Guild Wars already takes a long enough time to accomplish or acquire. And what do some want, to extend that process. A game is supposed to be fun. It should not take a lifetime to finish a game, everytime people get used to something they turn it upside down, now where is the fun in that? I still know the days where you really had some imba stuff, like beeing able to get an unlimited number of minions and keeping them alive, solo farming UW with a 55 when there wasn't any loot scaling, and stuff like that. I remember getting 50-100k in an hour once farming ettins when they didn't have self healing and without lootscaling, now that was fun but seriously unbalanced, the so called "problem" now is nothing when you compare it to what were serious problems. Qaletaqa 07:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

They compensated for the lack of extra gold. The zaishen quests were designed to reward people for "just" doing things. And how did they break the game? First: Buffing shadow form was unnecessary. it had it's own use, nothing special. But now 3 skills let you maintain both attack and spell immunity, and with 8 skill slots it's really not hard to aquire invincibility in the most overfarmed areas like fow or UW. Let's see. 7 shadow form assassins go in UW: they do things in at least 30 mins. they take an AoE nuker (RoJ monk) or in old times they took an SS necro. You see? the same with fow but at least what they do is to get three shadow form assassins, a bunch of RoJ monks, one splinter barrage with EoE, and they do it in less than 30 mins. Both areas were designed to take 1 hour at minimum to accomplish. Shadow form assassins do it very quickly. Nobody had been able to do that, not even in ursanway, where it is clear what broke the game (title-dependent effect). Also before SF NO farmers could clear elite areas of the game by just solo-ing or dual-ing. I don't consider myself rich in GW, although I have everything I need for a good party. most of the useful skills, good equipment(stats) and the deep knowledge in skill balance and build making necessary to accomplish everything i want in-game. And what is the other problem with shadow form? Breaking inter-profession dynamics (see: Warriors tank, elementalists deal damage from a range, assassins deal high damage in melee-but fragile... monks heal (see roj)), which is something that needs to be considered of. (see Foul Feast) Boro 08:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Also that's also annoying that you cannot get your LFG message trough in a populated Zquest outpost because of the constant spamming of shadow form and 600 smite advertisers. Also one broken fact never justifies another Boro 08:13, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) /(Edit conflict) The problem is that ANet is by now stuck in a vicious circle. They introduced titles like Drunkard, Wisdom or Treasure Hunter as a gold sink and long-term goal for players, which created a higher need for farming. ANet followed up with the Factions titles for long-term goals and Sweet Tooth, Party Animal and GWAMM for LTG + money sink, in turn creating more need for mor farming for more people.

IMO farming/speed-clear methods like 600/Smite or perma-SF are currently more or less balanced with the grind titles - if one is nerfed, the other should be adjustet, too. If these methods were required to play the game I'd agree that the game is broken. But they aren't, you can play and enjoy GW without them - you just shouldn't expect to get any of those titles.

If ANet really wanted to make a name as game developer, they should have stayed with their original concept of skill>time. But then they would probably not have sold > 6 million games, because the masses of consumers are in the PvE area, and they want to be entertained and kept busy. Hence the time>>>skill GW we have today. Xelonir 08:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Xelonir, I couldn't have said it better. I had typed out almost a whole page pressed the save page button and saw that you had a shorter answer to it, and it's one that I totally agree with. Qaletaqa 09:05, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

As always: one broken fact doesn't automatically justify another one. The PvE title grind needs to be toned down to reasonable levels. (more rewards for dungeons e.g.) Boro 15:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

PvE was designed to be a grind. Bad design. The only way rewards can be available to the masses is through farming builds, since PvE rewards time played more than skill. Some people enjoy this method of obtaining rewards, some people aren't able to set aside time to learn the part of the game that requires skill for rewards. The way PvE is allows people to do repetitive farming/grinding or take a more skillful approach building without invinci skills or pve skills. Or if people want a challenge they can do the elite areas. The fact that the PvE is grind wars makes the farming builds justified. Change the system you can change the skills accordingly. Since that won't happen though be grateful to the people who farm with those builds since they make weapons available and affordable. Your imposing your preference to play the game on others.~>Sins WDB 16:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

"PvE was designed to be a grind" - actually no, that's just you imposing your preference to play the game on Arena Net's design. Guild Wars has been created with a low level cap, maxed items easy to get and the endgame supposed to be PvP, not grind. The fact that grinders couldn't stand not playing the game every day of their lives eventually led Arena Net to adding some things for them to grind for, but PvE has always been far from designed to be a grind. Erasculio 16:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Even Wyn cannot deny the fact that there has been an unnecessary buff to the skill - Shadow Form has absolutely zero effect on how I play the game, so I could really care less. I'm certainly not going to bombard Linsey with a wall of crap because of it. -- Wyn 17:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, let me tell you ONE way it impacts me. If you want to do any elite area or farm, say, kurz or luxon points, you basically have 2 options. You either play in perma/600 teams, or u play alone. And playing as a perma/600 IS playing alone, as it has almost no interaction with other team players. So a cooperative online game has become instead a game in which ppl split up and each plays a small part of the game alone. Nice job! 201.6.66.4 21:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, farming is generally a solo activity, and for Elite areas, that's when being in a decent guild/alliance is helpful. Doing Elite areas in PUG groups has been more than annoying forever, regardless of Shadowform, or 600/smite. -- Wyn 21:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not talkin about farmin, i'm talkin about general playing. dungeons, doa, uw, deep, whatever. Ppl can farm fine without shadow form. Look at the difference. In deep, way back there was the steel wall. It was more or less fragile but it required TEAM WORK, the party actually PLAYED together. That's guild wars to ME. Shadow form is not guild wars, its solo wars. And don't tell me "i can do it alone with hero and hench", yeah, so can I, that's not the point. The pt is the enjoyment of playing a game together with other ppl, with each person having a role and the sum of the parts, synergy, etc. Thats what a real cooperative game is like. GW now is a sad mockery of that. 201.6.66.4 21:32, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

If playing with other people is what you want to do, there are LOTS of people out there that don't use SF or 600/smite to play, who enjoy actually playing the game. I'm one of them. I rarely have problems finding people to play with, but then I also rarely play outside my guild/alliance. -- Wyn 21:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Wyn, lemme ask you something. Is Shadow Form and 600/Smite balanced ? I remember one day when they nerfed something called Ursan. You can use all the same bloody arguments you're using now. Nobody's forcing you to use ursan. Its just more efficient than anything else. And they changed it. Took them a while too. WHY? Were they wrong then? Why GIVE A CRAP about game balance? It's all choice isn't it? You can either choose something that is so much more powerful that nearly every elite area in the game uses it, or not. free will right? So I guess it's all right then. Makes you wonder why they wasted so much time with those updates that change skills. None of that matters. Should have left everything the way it was, and let ppl decide what they want. That's how really good games are made. 201.6.66.4 23:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Here's a quote from dev update "It's no secret that the Ursan skills have been overpowered compared to other late-game options. Although this opened up high-end areas for a broader range of players it had several negative side effects: pick-up groups pressuring players to use Ursan Blessing; a diminished importance of profession and skill choice; and causing many players to feel that achieving a high rank in the Ursan title was required.". But hey, Wyn says that Pugs don't matter, you should only play with your own friends. And then you can choose to use whatever you want. Shame you didn't argue that back then right? we could still have ursan now. Disgusting. :/ I expected better arguments from someone like you. And hey, they actually changed things. Now profession matters. You can be a sin or a monk. :) 201.6.66.4 23:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

IP is exactly right, if you want to play UW/FoW, you have to be a sin or a monk. If this was balanced, they would be the only 2 professions in the game. This image [[1]] was taken over 2 days. Tell me, Does this looks PuG friendly? Sure, if you run permasin. UW was not designed to be cleared in 15 mins. You have to admit that. --adrin 23:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

15 minutes? adrin, a good perma grp can clear HM UW in EIGHT MINUTES. You're behind the times man :) Also, i'd like to leave a suggestion here. Since linsey doesnt give a crap about skill balance, bring back ursan and make it give +100 armor and +10 health regen. That way you can just get 8 ppl of any profession, put an elite on your bar and clear anything. I mean, if you're going to break pve, at least make it democratic right? 201.6.66.4 01:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Linsey doesn't balance the skills, Izzy does. Next topic. PUG + Elite Area = Players you (usually) don't know + player skill levels you don't know (usually). If you don't like the way things are now ask ANet to make another Title called "PUGs R Us" where you gain 1 point per player, who have not been in your alliance or on your friends list for at least 1 day, when you complete a mission. Make it 2 points if you get master's or bonus. Make it 5 points if it's an elite area. Make HM give 1 extra point when completed (not more bcs then you lose too many people to fast title grinding). So in an 8 man mission with 7 pugs you can get 14 title points, YAY! Then give some nice reward like a mini, weapon, or something once people pug with enough people. Make it something worthwhile though, like a PvE Charm Animal so people can have two pets or a new armor head piece. By the way this post is not in sarcasm it's serious and would actually be a good manipulation of people's desire towards the title system. In fact this should be the live team's top priority for PvE.~>Sins WDB 06:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Regina stated it around january that Izzy has been working on GW2 since the release of Eotn (and maybe he wasn't working on EoTN seeing how balanced the skills were there). And Izzy would have never buffed shadow form in the first place. Boro This user's suggestions on the game can be freely used by ArenaNet. 07:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not a single person who does the skill balancing guys. Izzy was just the "team lead", but it's not just Izzy or Linsey (who I think is now the new "team lead"?). Izzy, and people like Freyas, Morello, etc etc etc all chime in, discuss, then it's finalized, then implemented on dev servers, then QA'd, then pushed to Live. It's not like a single person buffed Shadow Form (altho iirc Linsey wasn't the team lead at that time anyways, it was Izzy) or whatever. ArenaNet as a whole buffed Shadow Form so blaming Linsey for it or saying Izzy wouldn't buff Shadow Form in the first place is a silly argument. DarkNecrid 09:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I admit that I made this mistake. Boro This user's suggestions on the game can be freely used by ArenaNet. 11:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd prefer to believe that one person who doesnt usually do skill balancing (linsey) made a mistake, than the entire anet team. Because if the whole of Anet made the stupid shadow form mistake, then Im fearful for GW2. And by they way, regardless of WHO did it, it makes me sad and disappointed. Because making a mistake is human. Leaving it for almost a year and defending it? That's just sheer incompetence sorry. 201.6.66.4 13:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why you are ranting on Linsey's page about skill balance. Izzy is and always has been the GW skill balancer. There have been no changes to skills that have had anything to do with Linsey. I think you all need to get over yourselves. As for ranting at Izzy about skill balance, you all know how far any of that has gotten you in the past. It's going to get you just as far now. -- Wyn 16:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Really it does not need to be nerved or toned down, nobody made a mistake. 600/smite and SF farming builds are just popular and "easy" to use, it can also be used in many places. To everyone who has a problem with it I'm gonna say the next "What The F*** is your problem with those builds and why? It does not affect the way YOU play and it does not affect the games ECONOMY much, all you see is that it's beeing used alot, let's not forget the many 600/smite and SF people who are advertising. When SF and 600/smite aren't gonna be there anymore it's gonna be something else. It has affected the economy in the past but it has been stabilized in the time that 600/smite and sf have been used alot". Now if they decide to nerf it then why not add the next ones:

• PvE
  • Cry of Pain
  • Hundred Blades
  • Discord
• PvP
  • Tease
  • Aura of the Lich
  • IWAY

Because they are just used alot and annoying because they also "get in the way of getting a party", also the raptor farming build with Hundred Blades in the skillbar kills alot faster then the SF one, Cry of Pain is just beeing overused alot in my oppinion, Discord makes HM a joke if you know how to use it well. Anyway i'm gonna go back to the game now because I have an assassin to get thru Nightfall, EOTN and Prophecies (finished Factions about 5 hours ago) because I would like to finish an assassin and would like to have 1 character for all professions to play with, maybe SF farm a bit while i'm at it. Anyway they should make an official Guild Wars forum, so these rants can be avoided on the wiki. SBAI, HF and GL. Qaletaqa 19:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Linsey is responsible for skill balancing at the moment, has been for a while, according TO HER OWN WORDS. Second, I love how you can say it doesn't affect the economy WITHOUT ANY FACTUAL BASIS. "its being used a lot". Yes, too much. More than the second, third, fourth and god knows how many other elites combined (and you can see that by looking in local and party windows in any major town). That is UNBALANCE. And that affects EVERYONE in the game, even those who choose not to use it. Anyway, don't waste your time arguing. Linsey and/or Izzy or whoever the hell is responsible for skill balance has proven since the end of 2008 that thye don't give a CRAP about skill balance. The original post is a complaint, not a request for change. It's too late. I just hope they learn the lesson to help avoid stupid, stupid mistakes on gw2. But that's more like a prayer than a concrete expectation - people who refuse to acknowledge mistakes never learn from them. 201.6.66.4 20:21, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of who takes the heat for skill balances Izzy has been working on them. Like I've said several times. He is also working on the May 14th update. Think what you want, but the fact is that Izzy is the one interacting with the team about skill balances. Linsey's position is likely what makes her responsible for the skill balances, but she has not been the one fine tuning them.

Take the Farming Arguments elsewhere, they are littered all over this page. Either make a subject for them or take it somewhere else. Just as a little tid bit for you farm build haters, it's because of farmers you can get the stuff you want in PvE for as cheap as it is. Otherwise it would be more expensive.~>Sins WDB 23:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Weapon skins are the only things that get cheaper with farming. Anything that can't be directly farmed becomes more expensive as people's wealth balloons. 66.190.15.232 01:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

how about we save the QQ til after the update and stop swamping Linsey's page with needless hyperbole? -- Salome 01:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the question can stay but the rest can be moved to the user's talk? 000.00.00.00 02:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

"Linsey is responsible for skill balancing at the moment, has been for a while, according TO HER OWN WORDS." Link it. Izzy has always been the GW skill balancer, and Linsey has never denied that and has never claimed differently. Yes, Izzy's primary focus is on GW2, and has been for a long time, that doesn't mean he isn't doing the skill balancing for GW. I would guess the reason Regina, and Izzy may have given the impression he isn't doing it anymore was to get these kinds of rants off of his page. That doesn't mean they belong on Linsey's page. If you want to rant, do it in your own userspace, or on a forum some where. I would love to move it, but since the OP is not a registered user, they don't have a userspace. If any of the rest of you would like to claim this and move it to your space, great. -- Wyn 09:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I'll claim this, so it is off this page. Qaletaqa 11:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Asperger's

Me too. High five. Felix Omni 06:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Nice to meet a fellow Aspie on this website :). Qaletaqa 09:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)