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State of the Game: Heroes' Ascent Is Dead!

Hi Regina, Please tie Heroes' Ascent to the Roleplaying Side of the game instead of tying it only to Team Arenas. Heroes' Ascent is dead because no one knows how to go there anymore unless you check the wiki or forums or some other outside of game research. Heroes' Ascent used to be the cool place in the desert everyone wanted to go to but now it's just a dark, dreary ugly volcano that only Team Arena veterans can access. I recommended dropping off all players that finish a campaign in Heroes Ascent or design a specific quest in roleplaying mode that takes players to Heroes' Ascent instead of the non-intuitive way of going through Team Arenas. 12.13.74.72 20:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The reason behind it is to make sure people have PvP experience. First there is random, then teams, then HA. It is a learning curve for people. But that dosn't make much sense because all group selections are title based so all those extra people wouldn't find good groups but would give the better teams more points. So the status quo works but is not great.--129.21.239.36 21:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

What we have now doesn't work. Open it up to everyone as a last burst of life. Vael Victus 02:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Letting bad PvE players into HA won't be good for anyone tbh. (It is *not* hard to get 10 nonconsecutive wins, especially if you have...what are they called?...friends/guildies/alliance mates) Vili 02:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

PvE players who are interested in PvP (HA or otherwise) have no difficulty getting there. The fact is, HA is just not a rewarding experience for PvE players. You'd be more likely to attract PvE players by offering some ladder, thus allowing them to fight teams that are on-par with them instead of getting butchered by teams that have 3+ years experience. -- Alaris 03:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

TA and HA are both in need of ladders. RA, as well, though to a lesser extent. Maybe even AB. Raine - talk 07:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you take your ugly elitist attitudes to another forum? The point of this discussion is to bring more players to Heroes' Ascent. Not to team arenas, not to the "ladder". Who are you to judge what is or isn't a rewarding experience especially since most new players won't even know what Heroes' Ascent is or how to get there. Right now, all we have is one or two active districts (at most, sometimes it dwindles down to one meager district) and these are always the International Districts. Early on in the game there were always several American districts, but now new players arriving at Heroes Ascent from Team Arenas will see an empty wasteland. And how would they know to check the International District for groups? All they see is wow empty district, no one plays this mission I guess and move on to something else. If they ask their teammates in Team or Random Arenas for help, they'll be too busy farming their gladiator points to have time to help a new player in Heroes' Ascent. The current system just leads to dead and empty districts. Now, the old system, that was awesome. Whole groups of Roleplaying characters would walk to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings over from the Dragons Lair, and this would ensure a steady stream of new players for Tombs/HA. They're not ready for PVP you say? Guess what? Heroes' Ascent already has a built-in system to train them up: it's called the group of ghosts/Zaishen that you must kill before you're allowed to compete with real players. Sure they'll lose the first few battles because of inexperience but that happens in any situation. The ones who don't like the pvp format or become too frustrated at losing will leave and the ones who want to try it out some more will stay and find another group. Right now, there are NO GROUPS TO BE FOUND (except if you go to the international district). Ok, I'm done complaining (for now) about the dead state of Heroes' Ascent. Now for suggestions to make it better/more attractive. 1) Add a Roleplaying quest reward for winning Hall of Heroes. (more rewards certainly increased the activity of Jade Quarry) and 2) Add PVE-only skills for the Hero title track similar to Kurzick/Luxon title. Everyman 07:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

HA is dead because pvp is dead, not because you need to gimmick your way through team arenas. Don't try to tell people "you need to beat TA to learn pvp" because 50% of the players in HA don't know what pvp is and 49% of the rest are terrible. ~Shard 07:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I would appreciate the free fame that would arise from giving pvers open access to HA. Misery 08:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Title track linked skills make the game worse, not better. Please don't forget that.

That being said, it wouldn't hurt to put more PvE-relevant items into PvP rewards. After all, Zaishen Keys were a great addition to the game.

By the way, have you seen the number of leechers etc. in Jade Quarry/Fort Aspenwood since the changes? Big rewards are a great incentive to abuse the system. Vili 08:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

a good way to make the end reward better for all is to make it so it has the same drops as the zchest but also have a bit more of a chance to get a rarer item also make opening the end chest to hall of heroes count twords the zrank also stop having zkeys drop from it. also another thought i had about ha is make it so the Zaishen you fight at the start count the same as the Zaishen elite (ie make it so you can get up wards of 2k bath faction a day from defeating them) 75.165.102.138 10:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

@Everyman - was that wall of text aimed at me? If so, you are sorely mistaken. I am not elitist, I am in fact a PvE player who would enjoy playing some HA with like-skilled players for a change. Ladders would mean that I would be able to fight teams that also don't have experience, which would be a lot more fun for me, newbie PvP player. Also remember, the old system worked because back then, people weren't bored with doing the same thing for 3 years straight! Players that pierce through HA are the ones that have enough backbone and patience to suffer through the early defeats... until they improve and make connections. So I can tell you, if you will listen, my experience in HA as a non-elitist PvE player. The only think that would make HA more attractive, more fun, for me... would be a way to ensure that I am most of the time matched against like-skilled players, so it's not a frustrating experience of repeat defeat. It's the current elitist play-like-a-pro-or-gain-nothing that I have a problem with. -- Alaris 15:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree absolutely with you, Alaris. I don't really have much else to add: I just believe that a ladder would greatly improve PvP experience for newbies, without hurting the hardcore scene, in not only HA but TA, RA and festival games. --Mme. Donelle 15:54, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

My randomway has beaten Lichway, Mathway and even a Contagionway (loltheymusthavebeenbad). What is randomway? It's a random build. I take a reasonable bar, add two healerish heroes to ensure the team has at least some healing, then press tab + invite until I have a full party of 8, then hit enter as soon as I do. I don't wait for anyone to ping bars or change their skills or eqipment. Using this method it's possible to get 3 or 4 win streaks, if you are bloody lucky and pull a bunch of bored R12s you might take halls, but it's bloody unlikely and I certainly haven't done it. That all being said, you will win the first map a few times and if you at least take it seriously you can learn the basics and farm your way to R2 or 3 and get into a terrible group. I've won that map with HA first timers in my team. There are lots of terrible teams in HA, it's not impossible to win. No, you will not be invited into a good group, R9s will not play with you, but that's because you are new and you aren't good. Deal with it. Ignore the flames, learn the ropes, do your time. If anyone joins a randomway group and gets pissed off, they were dumb for accepting a random invite and clearly not good players anyway. Good players don't pug unless they are bored and then they don't take it seriously. It helps if you find someone who knows what they are talking about to point you in the right direction. Throw out any ideas of build creativity, it will work in randomway but you'll never play past that if you don't play meta unless you are damn gifted. Trust me, most people are not unique and beautiful butterflies, they are ugly damned butterflies. Misery 16:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

There are better ways to learn how to fight lions than being thrown to the lions. Sure, those who survive will fight well (if they are not handicapped by then), but most will die. Throwing a bunch of PvE's into that will not help anything either, except give experienced HA'ers easy kills. -- Alaris 16:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Did you miss the part where I said I win? Also there is no penalty for losing, so /care. Don't forget that if more people did this it would be easy wins for PvErs too. Misery 17:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You know if pve wasnt "OEH MY GAWSH LOOK AT THAT DOMMAGE ME NEEDZ SY TO SURVIVE LOLZ LOLZ AND LOOK AT MY DAMIEGE PWN THEM FOR REALZ" pvpers might actually reconsider looking down on pve'ers until then pve'ers will always be terrible :) Lilondra *Poke* 17:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Misery: Crappy players who don't want to bother learning how to improve, will never improve. Reducing their chances of going up against a r9+ team ain't gonna change that. But for those who DO want to improve, it makes the experience actually enjoyable. And ultimately, this is a game. It SHOULD be enjoyable. [Edit:] And before you mention bad players grinding their way up to r6 and beyond, bear in mind that, if there was a ladder, they'd never break into the ranks of good players. Hard-working newbies, on the other hand, eventually would. --Mme. Donelle 17:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I have fun with my randomway. Anyone is welcome by the way. I don't see how random GWWer is any worse than random tab + invite. 5 GWWers at once may be too many. Experience has taught me that more than 3 PvXers on a team dooms the team to failure. Misery 17:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Btw, if you don't make it past the underworld you aren't going to hit that many R9 teams, you will hit a lot of R1-3 teams. Those are the guys rolling you <3 Misery 17:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Rolling? I'm afraid l haven't come across that particular insult yet. Gotta love how PvP is 25% battle, 75% being a dick. --Mme. Donelle 17:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It is also 25 % smashing your head into your keyboard and 75 % relying on your heroes zomg those % seem to match! Lilondra *Poke* 18:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not an insult. It is a term that means beating easily, like a steam roller. You would use it if a match lasts somewhere in the ballpark of two minutes. I love how I gave an open invite for anyone to play with me and you then claim I am insulting you and 75% dick. That's probably toeing the line of NPA. Don't worry though, I still love you. Allow me to put the request to remove the entry requirements in a new light. DoA doesn't have enough people in it, remove the requirement of completing Nightfall so that any level 20 character can go there at any time. That will bring more people there. I don't expect to be let into Underworld Speed Clear groups, I don't know the builds, I don't know the run and no one has ever heard of me. That's PvE elitism, why should PvP be any different? Lilondria is trolling you, I am trying to provide useful advice. Please place your anti-pvper bias aside for a second and stop trying to see attacks where they don't exist. Misery 18:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok you can learn how to uw speed clear in around a day, not hard nothing like the hundreds of houres it can take to get ha rank up.Lodgeinator 18:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Misery: Yes, it was an insult. Getting "beaten easily" by r1-3s is, I'm pretty sure, something to be ashamed of. --Mme. Donelle 23:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Rank doesn't necessarily mean skill. If you are ashamed of yourself over a few pixels, please, seek psychiatric help for your inferiority complex.Pika Fan 23:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

If I am wrong and you aren't getting rolled, CONGRATULATIONS! You are playing HA. Misery 23:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) And apparently that means there's absolutely zero correlation between skill and rank and one should never, ever use rank as a vague indicator of skill? Though I appreciate your assumption that I'm too unintelligent to realise the two aren't directly proportional. No, I'm correctly ashamed of my lack of skill, which prevails despite months upon months of trying to improve. --Mme. Donelle 23:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

No, you shouldn't use it as a vague indicator of skill. Case in point, Badiator Motoko. Misery 23:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not kidding when I say the only title that's worth a damn as an indicator of skill anymore are RA glads. There's been too many overpowered gimmicks and guild teams selling points for PvP title tracks to be anything but an indicator of time spent anymore. --76.25.197.215 23:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Once again, Misery, you said it first. "if you don't make it past the underworld you aren't going to hit that many R9 teams, you will hit a lot of R1-3 teams." If titles have zero bearing on skill, why are we seeing the majority of r1-3 teams in the underworld and not in halls? I know damn well that you can't make any judgements about an individual's skill based on their title, but averages are another matter. You know that too. --Mme. Donelle 00:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I differentiate in my head between actual rank and deserved rank. I apologise if that is not clear. Misery 00:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) It's not really about rank at all unless you are trying to pug. It's about being good and building a reputation. If you try to grind rank and the pug it will take a long time and you will still be bad. It takes some effort to not play terribly, you need to do it almost exclusively until you reach a plateau. You build a friendslist and then you play with them. It's like DoA or vanquishing or something. I don't really see why people expect it to be different. Misery 18:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

In pve to vanquish just add heroes, its hard to build a reputation no matter how good you are if the right people dont see you play.Lodgeinator 18:15, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Vanquishing alone with heroes is the equivalent of randomway, grind it out. Misery 18:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

what if you dont want to do ra only ha what chance do you have then.Lodgeinator 18:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

What if I want to only farm the Domain of Anguish but don't want to complete Nightfall, what chance do I have then? Misery 18:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Nightfall can be done in 2 days to get a rank in ra which might be accecpted by a ha team is r7 which takes years.Lodgeinator 18:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

RA and TA can be done in a day, to get a sunspear rank 10 which takes years of mindless farming. P.S. No HA team asks for RA ranks. P.S.S. Retarded fallacious arguments have to stop.Pika Fan 18:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You can do Nightfall in two days because you know how to PvE. Farming 5 wins in TA takes like half an hour if you know what you are doing too. Getting a 10 win in RA takes a day if you are unlucky. I got into HA teams with r0. That took zero time for me to farm. Also, g1 is considered the equivalent of r3, r3 will get you into groups. Let me say once more DO NOT FARM RANK AND THEN PUG GROUPS. Join a guild, not a guild that recruits in RA. Build a friendslist, play with your friendslist, wait for it to expand. Misery 18:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm maby you should try and get into ha now with no rank and without using friends list, see what happens then.Lodgeinator 19:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I do that all the time, it's called randomway. Haven't you been paying attention? Misery 19:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

(and if it wasn't clear) by doing that, you build friends/friendlist. hell, i was in a top 100 guild for a few months because i played randomway with its leader for a couple hours; i don't think he ever even asked my rank (I'm still sitting on r2 atm). Being courteous, willing to learn/follow orders, and having a little luck can actually take you a long way. Obviously not everyone is going to get an invite a to top 100 guild, but if you can get into any guild by doing that, the experience with that guild is probably going to be worth your while. -- Mafaraxas 00:01, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Now about building a reputation: When I started playing ib HA, I started with randomway. Then I learned builds, tactics, and found a guild. It was in a strange way: I was a Visions of Regret mesmer and the leader of the guild was an UG ele. I stripped all of his enchants, and latter whispered him after the match. I got then a guild invite, and became the member of a good team (HA/AB/RAsync/maybe TA? guild). I'm learning a lot since then and I usually play balanced builds (like melandru's shot or magehunter/Earth shaker warrior). and I am R2 --Boro 09:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

People are fucking bad. If you can't get go HA, you shouldn't be in HA. — Warwick 17:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the dev team is aware of the state of HA right now. I've been sending them comments and complaints for a really long time. They haven't had the time to deal with it, and other features have just been given more priority. They do want to fix things, it's just a matter of where they can fit it in to their schedules. In the Live Team, they try to schedule things tightly, so there's rarely the case where someone has extra time here or there to work on a side project. Stuff has to make it on the schedule, and to make it on the schedule, it has to jostle with all the other features that players want, so it's really tricky. --Regina Buenaobra 05:13, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Any talk of removing heroes from player vs player AT ALL??

Is there? --adrin 08:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

They have insider information on the situation of heroes absolutely destroying PvP. Don't rush them. -Auron 08:46, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Insider information lol, thats not possible cuz anet doesn't play their game. --adrin 13:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe you can stop failing at sarcasm. It's so obvious auron is making a dig at anet.Pika Fan 19:53, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Removing them would be a pretty retarded move financially, they just need to gimp the AI in PvP situations. Make them as good as henchmen. Misery 13:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Healing Touch on overextended warrior D: Fox007 14:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Nobody runs healing touch on a hero. You get tease, weapon of shadow, weapon of warding, protective was kaolai, smite condition, smite hex, peace and harmony, divine healing, heaven's delight, soul bind, faintheartedness, lingering curse etc etc. Pika Fan 19:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I have put the idea up for consideration many times, so it's something that they are aware of and it's on their mind. --Regina Buenaobra 20:18, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

<3 those standard meaningless comments ^^ Lilondra *Poke* 20:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

What are you looking for? What else can Regina say? The question was whether it was being considered, and her answer was yes. I expect she can't go into detail because A) there isn't any, this has been discussed, but nothing actually planned yet, or B) she isn't one of the people discussing it, rather the person forwarding the players concerns. If the dev team decides anything important, they will let Regina know so she can tell us (unless it is a *surprise* saved for april ^^) Ashes Of Doom 23:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with heroes being removed from HA and GvG as long as they leave the AI alone. --Draikin 00:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

@pika, yes i know it was sarcasm as i replied with more sacrasm, seems like u missed it =P

@regina, i think people are getting tired of hearing that copy and pasted response from everyone at anet. thank you for bringing it to their attention, that answered my question, but are they gunna do anything about it? it's ruining HA is 6v6 again and playing against gwen and norgu is retarded. is there a reason this hasn't been changed? they haven't even bothered to dumb down the AI, much less fix the problem. i'm starting to agree with shard's idea that anet must have the IQ of a chair. --adrin 06:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

adrin dont go that way or you'll get banned for saying pie.Also TBH I'm not blaming regina but net wich is so much better Lilondra *Poke* 06:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You know when you fail at sarcasm if your sarcastic comments make you look genuinely stupid. lrn2sarcasm tbh.Pika Fan 07:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

ur right lilondra, i should learn by his example lol. i still think that they need to take action if the community manager is bringing this up to them multiple times though. --adrin 08:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Regina, I'm sorry about my previous comment and I appreciate your understanding of our concerns with this. It seems like you care about our frustrations, critically stated as they may be. I know you have said that you have brought this up to the team and I know before you stated how your workday goes. My question is who do you talk to about these kinds of issues? I'm just curious. --adrin 11:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I have spoken to Linsey many, many times about this for the past several months. Each time the issue is raised in the community, I raise it again internally. And it's not just the wiki community either. This issue comes up on the forums. Neither is it only on the English forums, this issue has been repeatedly brought up in the German, French, and Spanish forums. Yes it is being considered and discussed. Will we do anything about it? I can't say one way or the other right now. I am sorry that many of you are not satisfied with this answer, but that is the best answer I have for you right now. --Regina Buenaobra 01:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

WTH exactly makes everyone think this is somehow a No Brainer? YES, I'm going against Shard on this one. If this was 2 years ago and the metagame game itself wasn't rapidly aging, maybe it would be a no-brainer... but what do you at off-hours when you need an Interrupter or a second Monk and there's no players spec'd for those roles b/c all anyone wants to do is be a friggin Tanker or Ninja rip-off? As "life goes on" in this game, I'm finding that heroes are often the best thing that ever happened to solid team-forming. They "put a floor underneath" all consistently terrible PuGs. And there's nothing about their power usage in PvP that couldn't be fixed by having the A.I. coders add a "competency" slider that ratchets down to the level of competition they're participating in... AI "tourney Code" exactly like that has been around ever since QuakeIII! --ilr 05:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Well said. 145.94.74.23 06:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Chat Filter Censoring Historical Figures

My guild made some startling observations today when we discovered that several historical figures have their names added to the chat filter when the filter is set to Maximum level. First we stumbled on "Mussolini" and then tests quickly determined that "Hitler" and "Stalin" are also censored. I'm curious if ArenaNet, or perhaps NC Soft, has an official comment on why these names in particular are filtered. Clearly the history surrounding these people is a dark one and I'm not looking for that answer. I'm just surprised that even the name of someone is filtered, particularly since other historical figures behind similarly monstrous acts are unfiltered. -- WarBlade 07:00, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It's to save people from Godwin's Law. --Mme. Donelle 07:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Highly doubtful. Godwin's Law focuses purely on a probability of comparisons with nazi-ism approaching 100% as a topic grows longer. The probability remains almost unchanged whether a word is censored or not, simply because confusion will most likely cause a temporary disabling of the filter. -- WarBlade 08:27, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

How about stopping people from shouting "Hail Hitler" in the middle of LA 1? =) I'm sure there is someone who would find that offensive. Once again, there is a reason why everyone who spent more then a day ingame is turning off the chat filter. Biz 10:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I was making a joke, Warblade. I don't know why dictators' names are censored, but my guess is that those names are a greater taboo in their countries of origin than elsewhere in the world; in Germany, for example, it's actually illegal to depict a swastika in public, even though the swastika is an ancient religious symbol and not inherently connected to Nazism. So perhaps "Hitler" is considered a rude word there too. --Mme. Donelle 10:57, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

the hole word filter and reporting for verbal abuse system is horribly set up right now, what the need to do is make it so everyone can have there own personal filter that saved on there computer, so then if you see something that you dont like you can add the word your self and it blocks it. this would fix it when people who try and go around the filter by adding spaces or other spellings. it also allows for people who dont care such as my self and use any words that i want, to have freedom of speech it also clears up a lot of support tickets and support time because no one can complain about bad language.75.165.102.188 11:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

That wouldn't really solve anything as people can be really offensive without using a single offensive word. At any rate it's about time cry babies stopped getting support time, it can be better spent polishing Game of the Year awards and actuality being inside the game, even if only to say "No need to use such colorful language" to some one in General chat. People who can't take moderate swearing shouldn't even go online in the first place, not to mention messing around with hardened veterans of verbal warfare. =P Biz 19:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I really agree with you. At any rate it's about time cry babies stopped getting support time, it can be better spent saving cats stuck on trees and actually showing off police medals and trophies, even if only to say "No need to commit crimes" to some felon raping the old lady down the street. People who can't take moderate crimes committed against them or others shouldn't even stay alive in the first place, not to mention messing around with hardened veterans of crime and chaos.152.226.7.213 10:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

i loled...... 75.165.102.188 13:04, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I would like to also point out how ironic it is that you can get banned for bad language but something that isnt nearly as bad as someone leaching or botting now that is actual game braking and not fun.75.165.102.188 07:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

You completely missed the boat here, 152.226.7.213. Freedom of speech is guaranteed by the bill of rights, while raping the old lady down the street is not. Sure, there are limits on speech, but ultimately that's not even what this whole discussion is about. I think 75.165.102.188's suggestion was quite valid, and while Biz is absolutely correct in saying that people can be quite offensive using otherwise individually unoffensive words, people have to learn to either tolerate it or not play it (or not let their sons/daughters play online with strangers and then come crying to anet when someone makes their son/daughter cry). If you have a problem with what and individual says, you can simply ignore them (yes, I know the ignore list is maddeningly small). A customizable filter serves a purpose too, for those that find certain words offensive and don't want to add the entire X percent of guild wars players that would use such words to their ignore list, and to not see such profanity in the first place. As for why Stalin, Hitler, etc. are on the list? Well, this is a guess, but I really doubt anet sat down and hand wrote such list from scratch. Chances are they purchased such a list from another company along with the rights to use it, and possibly hand tweaked it after that. Hitler, Stalin, and so forth were probably already on the list without anet's specific desire to include them, or added to reduce the possibility of what Biz was discussing earlier in this thread. --Seventh 10:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, so freedom of speech means I can use my mouth for things like personal attacks and slander? Also, if there is a limit on free speech, then naturally there isn't free speech, and thus your argument is fallacious. Maybe you should learn and exercise a little bit of logic before posting a wall of text that doesn't make sense at all. Rules and regulations in-game set by Anet has nothing to do with the law anyway, if you can't abide by their regulations, don't play at all kthx. Stop exploiting the law to break established codes of conduct, it just shows how immoral and manipulative a person you are.Pika Fan 18:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue the semantics or law of free speech with trolls. And you completely overlooked the point I was trying to make, which was that his metaphor was a bad one, as it wasn't comparing apples to apples. It's interesting how I say, "...ultimately that's not even what this whole discussion is about" and yet you feel the need to reiterate "Rules and regulations in-game set by Anet has nothing to do with the law anyway..." Did you read my whole post or just stop after the second sentence? Established code of conduct? Ask 10 different people what that is, you'll get 10 different answers. The Rules of Conduct are deliberately vague here ("...cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players"), likely to protect anet from frivolous lawsuits regarding bans. Things that one person wouldn't bat an eye at could make another burst into tears. It has nothing to do with morality or manipulation, it's simply the system used to allow people to screen what they see, and what they don't want to see. --Seventh 20:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

1. Your wall of text says a lot about you not arguing with a troll.
2. "...ultimately that's not even what this whole discussion is about" <---Am I supposed to guess the meaning of something so vague? Maybe if you could get straight to the point instead of beating around the bush. I don't see how my statement was reiterating what you have or have not mentioned, any idiot with half a brain can see they are totally unrelated. Guess you don't even have half a wit.
3. When I say "established code of conduct" I am refering to the rules and regulations set by anet. You had 3 and a half years to stop playing a game you didn't agree with, or to file a lawsuit for any unfair rules and regulations.
4. His metaphor is appropriate because manipulative people like you are trying to exploit loopholes in the law to get away with foul language, which clearly is wrong. If you can't see crimes committed that doesn't make it any less wrong, therefore if you can't see foul language that doesn't make it any less wrong either. If you say people that can't take profanities should gtfo of the internet, then I can also say that people who can't control their mouths(or hands in this case) should gtfo of this game.
5. QQ more about not being able to get away with foul language.Pika Fan 01:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

1. Right, this isn't an argument, simply stating a point of view.
2. In context, yes, it's very clear what I was saying, and I'd hardly call it beating around the bush--it's fairly direct. Also, please don't violate Guild_Wars_Wiki:No_personal_attacks.
3. Yes, the problem is the rules are vague. It's not that I don't agree with the game, just I think there's a way they can improve it, leaving everyone happier. It would reduce the complaints anet receives for verbal abuse, and leave more time for fixing more important matters in the game.
4. "His metaphor" was a bad metaphor, it has nothing to do with "manipulative people like me" who are, according to you, just trying to get away with foul language. I don't see why you would claim I'm manipulative or trying to get away with foul language, as I have demonstrated neither, unlike some of your comments. And, if I can't see "foul language", why does it matter if it's wrong or not? It's a victimless crime. I'm saying people should take responsibility for what they expose, or risk exposing themselves to, rather than trying to delegate that responsibility to anet.
5. I'm not crying, complaining, or trying to get away with foul language, but you seem to miss that point here. I'm trying to improve a system so less of anet's valuable time is spent dealing with verbal abuse on a case-by-case basis. Users would be happier too, as they can easily customize filters to block out predetermined terms they find offensive, in particular things that other people might not--lowering the risk of exposing themselves to what they find "foul" or "unwanted". Either way, this thread is now well off topic. You have a condescending attitude towards others on the wiki, making them out to be "manipulative people" who are "trying to exploit loopholes", when you should have good faith and realize myself and others are trying to constructively communicate ways to improve the game. Continuing this conversation any further is pointless for both of us, and as such I (and with hope, others) will not respond to any additional off topic replies regardless of who they come from. --Seventh 03:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Seventh, I have to correct you on 5:3 "Yes, the problem is the rules are vague. It's not that I don't agree with the game, just I think there's a way they can improve it, leaving everyone happier. It would reduce the complaints anet receives for verbal abuse, and leave more time for fixing more important matters in the game."

A-Net's staff don't have anything to do with support, it is all handled by NC-Softs staff and as such don't infringe on the time A-Net staff spend on "fixing" GW. Stockholm

There were so many abuses involving players who used those names, that they had to block them. The block on those names was a direct response to player abuse. --Regina Buenaobra 04:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. The first sentence could be interpreted a couple of different ways, one being "players used those names abusively in their character names," which raises new questions itself. If that's the case, does this mean that character names are intrinsically linked to the chat filter? And if so, wouldn't it be more prudent to maintain separate lists for blocked words? An exclusion list of inappropriate names kept server side strikes me as an obvious thing to do, but the chat filter is harder to image... The filter could be structured in any number of ways - I'd love to see a user-editable text file saved client side personally. -- WarBlade 00:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Cute Minipets

Hi Regina, i was wondering if some of the cute minipets like the panda and zed shadowhoof will be given out to more people rather than a select few. Ive wanted a mini panda for my hall of mouments since i first saw it but i cant find anyone to sell me one, i checked the pet page on wiki and it says that there was only 146 in the game so it seems impossible that i will ever get one for my hall of monuments unless i manage to find a million ecto,  :( 80.189.249.13 16:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

your not the only one ^^ 145.53.242.142 17:59, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of cute minis. I personally think the mini Black Beast of Black Beast of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh is adorable. Then there are Siege Turtles, Heckets, Djinn, Cloudtouched Simians, Irukandji (I love the little jellyfish!!), Raptors, Black Moa Chicks, and Ooze (which have to be the single cutest mini, hands-down), most of which are well under 100k (the Black Beast of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh being the exception, at around 150k). They're not all as cute as a panda, of course, but I'd argue that they're all cuter than Zhed. =/ Raine - talk 18:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I've given up on Pandas from the first time I heard about them. Too rich for my blood. There are plenty of other choices that are more within range of standard GW players, and I'm sticking to those. -- Alaris 18:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they should make all the cute minis common, and only ugly ones rare? That way, everyone can get the minis they like the look of, and nobody would want the rare ones unless they were collectors. Trouble is, of course, "ugly" and "cute" are very subjective and there's no way to make everyone happy. It's a shame that popularly cute ones like the panda and polar bear are so rare, but there you have it. If they made those minis common, though, I feel they'd need to introduce a new rare one to make up for the loss of a trophy mini. --Mme. Donelle 22:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

or they should just do that monthly mini pet give away thing they did like a year ago i think?75.165.102.188 00:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Now that miniatures no longer have a 'infinite life', but may end up disappearing in Halls of Monuments (let's consider dedicated miniatures as a separate kind of item in this case), a real infinite source for some of them is in order so they don't end up being too much rare. Things like Birthday miniatures, drop miniatures and the Black Moa Chicken are not a problem and never will be. They have infinite sources. But there are other that where given in a very limited way. Some of them should be inserted again once a year or so. For example, by making them part of the rewards for contests and tournaments, or by adding special weekends when a very limited number of them may drop in certain places. MithTalk 13:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I see why they are kept rare but i think they are just a little too rare, i could perhaps save up a hundred thousand gold if i did lots of dungeons but i have no way of ever getting a panda since someone told me i need to have like 100 million gold, how do people have so much is there an infinate gold trick i dont know about? 80.189.249.13 14:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Ways to earn enough money to get the rare minis: spend way too much time powertrading, running really hard dungeons, or winning high-end PvP. Conga lines will be fixed in next patch. -- Alaris 14:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Lol, whoever told you that Pandas are worth 100mil was exaggerating. They're closer to 8 million -- I've seen offers as high as 20, but 8's about average. --Mme. Donelle 16:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

When the recent art contests were in the planning stages, I ask whether we can use those rare Miniatures as prizes as we did in previous years. I was turned down. I doubt that they will let me give them out to more people, since they're not keen on giving them out to even a few. --Regina Buenaobra 04:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh cmon regina shurely you would want to do something for the greater good of the guild wars public?!--144.132.144.43 05:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not like Regina has the power to directly counter her superiors by creating rare miniatures out of thin air and giving them out with no one noticing. I also fail to see how giving out 50,000 pandas will do towards the "greater good of the guild wars public". It would be like the government handing out a bunch of free Ferraris. Vili 06:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the dev update!

--The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:218.214.126.215 (talk). 21:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

"our goal of making Guild Wars 2 the best online role-playing game ever created" . . . dot dot dot. . .
I believe that qualifies as instant Alpha Dog of the Week status. --ilr 00:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

So, nothing new? "Until then, we thank you for your continued interest and ask you to stay tuned." Yes, but for what? How long? It's interesting asking someone to stay tuned (clearly most of us are going to 'stay tuned' regardless of what Regina or anyone else has to say because we have geniune interest) when you yourself can't give any indication as to how long someone has to hold interest? Though, that's probably nitpicky of me but I find the whole 'when it's done' stance as epically unprofessional from any developer, not just Arenanet. 'When it's done' isn't a true comment, because projects don't have open-ended budgets (in any industry, just look at say something like Star Wars when they starting the new episodes and Star Wars is far more popular and culturely interwoven than Guild Wars etc and so on), there are time constraints, resource constraints etc and so on.

Personally, I don't expect it to come until 2011, which I don't mind I think it's a good thing: it gives it a strong development cycle which is required for such a project, 2012 wouldn't be so bad either. Open-ended comments just don't do it for me, a few years ago, or more massively popular projects may be able to get away with it, but the communtities around any such project are becoming more and more educated about the inner workings. If Arenanet wants to go "when it's done" it's only fooling itself. 000.00.00.00 03:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought historically "when it's done" schedules produce games with a higher level of polish than full on deadline games. Compare Valve with EA releases, for instance. 218.214.126.215 04:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

"it's done when it's done" sounds more like a lazy pissed off auto mechanic to me. --adrin 06:18, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Auto mechanics reserve the right to refuse service at any time for any reason. :\ Vili 06:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You're not paying ArenaNet to make it, so you don't really have any reason to be able to hold them accountable for when it's released. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 10:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

So giving them money for the purchase of the game isn't paying them? Their decision to take such a stance on their release date plans questions my judgement on weather or not they are realistic in this effort. Judging by their failure with GW1, that already seems questionable. They're counting on players of GW1 to be the base of ppl purchasing the game, but when they don't balance gw1, give adequate customer support, or seem organized with thier GW2 plans, it seems like they don't know what they're doing, and the players of GW1 are not going to support them as much as they hope. So yes, I think we should all hold them accountable. --adrin 10:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

First of all, You didn't pay for GW2, you paid for Gw1 and you knew it will be "as is" with support and changes optional. They are very organized with their plan, plan that is NOT to tell us things they can't or won't deliver and do not show us something half-done. As said, betas now are seen as preview of final product not work in progress. Showing incomplete Beta would lose them more players then pushing it back to the very end of development. Besides... every single GW1 player I know will buy his copy of Gw2 collectors edition regardless of when it comes out. Biz 17:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm paying gaming companies money for games that I can play now. So I expect that when I pay for a game, it is completed. It really annoys me when a game is released unfinished and buggy. -- Alaris 19:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You are also paying a gaming company for an MMO, a type of game that states explicitly that the game can change right on the box. There is no such thing as a completed online game, hell these days even offline games are still being developed after they are released. Just look at the number and size of patches for WoW, or HL2. Dargon 19:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I can tell by the context that you don't actually mean WoW, but it's hard to tell what the alternative might be... Do you mean WC3? TF2? ...maybe D2? ...all of which saw major Patches more than 3 years after their releases. Or maybe something more recent? --ilr 23:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I did mean WoW, here's the notes from some of the most recent patches -- http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/ Dargon 23:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

You specifically said "even offline games", immediately citing WoW.
UR_DOING_IT_WRONG --ilr 00:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

To explain my previous comment: (1) a completed game is one virtually free of crash/freeze/unable to play bugs, has all (or almost all) advertised features, and is decently balanced, (2) patches for improved balance or added content or minor fixes are just fine by me, and (3) Blizzard and ANet usually release completed games by my standards. EotN was short, but completed except for HoM. -- Alaris 01:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

"Judging by their failure with GW1" -- what failure? GW1 was immensely successful, and continues to be so. Support of the game isn't that bad, considering it's free-to-play, and Linsey is making a real effort to improve it. As for GW2: all ANet needs to worry about is that players are fond enough of the game that they will purchase the sequel, since that's the only time they get our money. How many of the people who replied negatively to this section are honestly never going to buy GW2? I thought so. --Mme. Donelle 22:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Mme Donelle: you made a good point about the wording of the letter inferring that GW2 seems to be a high priority. Did you mean to take that out?Ashes Of Doom 23:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I removed it because it seemed like a superfluous point to be making in that comment, but I do think the letter was telling us that GW2 is high priority to NCsoft, and I believe the reason for that is because GW1 was such a successful game, NCsoft reckons GW2 will do a good job of bringing them well back into the black. --Mme. Donelle 23:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

costume brawl for fat tuesday/mardi gras/carnival

just wondering if there's any chance that Costume Brawl might get a weekend event or something since mardi gras is coming up. i had suggested this to someone here before, and i'm wondering if it got any traction. it kinda fits thematically b/c of all the costumed balls ppl go to during this time. --VVong|BA 19:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Though they'd have to give out something else as a reward instead of ToT bags. --Mme. Donelle 20:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

yeah, they would've had plan for this a while ago to be able to do it by next weekend. i'm not expecting it, but it'd be cool if it happened. --VVong|BA 20:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Rejuvinate Tombs

Hi Regina, I know that the Live Team is busy with the April update, which I am very excited about, but I was wondering if you could ask them to help rejuvinate the Tombs area a little. The place is totally dead now that it has been taken over by the permasins. I don't think it would take much, just some skill tweeks with the mobs in there to defeat the permasins in the first level would do the trick. The place used to be a lot of fun when everyone was doing BP teams, at least those were social, and required a little skill. As it is now it is just a solo farm area, and no one even talks in the outpost. Thanks for your time (Satanael 14:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC))

put signet of disenchantment on the scythe of chaos. --Cursed Angel 14:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Or do the obvious thing - nerf shadow form (changing it from 100% uptime to 100% uptime is not a nerf.) ~Shard 22:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Nothing, excepting the final greens, can be acquired there that cannon be acquired somewhere else, and people don't go much for greens nowadays. Just do what has been asked many times, turning it into a real 'elite' area or a challenge:

1. Add unique drops. There are some weapons named 'chaos', 'ghostly' and 'eternal' that humanoid ghost usually have. All of them could be merged into a single weapon set, and the missing weapons could be added to complete the set, then making all of them drop there, additionally, ghost NPCs that bear non-ghostyl weapons like Sunspear scouts could get those weapons instead the physical ones they have. We have swords, axes, big bows, shields and staves, so hammers, small bows, wands, daggers, spears and scythes are left to complete the set.
2. Add a final chest (and move to it all drops from the Darknesses, including the unique drops, so every player gets their final drop).
3. Add HoM statue.
4. And finally.
   • Turn it elite by remove henchmen and revamping monster builds or...
   • Turn it into a challenge by giving it a challenge icon and turning two of the NPCs there into a challenge host (the one that explains the challenge) and a records NPC (the one that shows the challenge records) that way it would be like Glint's challenge, a challenge with a real end and final chest, but offensive instead of defensive. I think this is the best choice, since although Prophecies still lacks something 'elite', it also lacks challenge missions, and something 'Elite' in Prophecies would be better against Titans or Mursaat (like making the Titan quests repeatable, for parties of 8 and harder).

Aaand done, as rejuvenated as it can be. MithTalk 23:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I think some of the more major changes suggested by Mith would be great (although I'm not sure about the challenge mission thing), but I was thinking that, given how busy everybody is and how much coding and testing would be required to add content of any kind to tombs, something more like what Cursed Angel suggested would be easier. Some sort of a mob build revamp, like what they did for UW, would be effective and relatively easy to do. But in any case the main point remains, Tombs as it currently stands needs to change. (Satanael 03:36, 4 February 2009 (UTC))

I agree, it wouldn't take much to rejuvenate the area. Add a chest at the end...if you're not farming, it takes about an hour to get through. No one is going to spend time getting together a group to spend an hour going through an area only to have a CHANCE of getting an outdated green =P. Give some nice new shiny weapon drops, better end items, and a guaranteed end reward, and this area will see a lot more activity.-Warior Kronos 04:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

tbh, adding moar (new weapon skins, HoM statue, end chest... ...) would only increase the amount of sf assassins and just give them more rewards for being bad. --Cursed Angel 11:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

You just have to prevent Assassin from getting to the end alone, or change Fingers of Chaos to work in Assassins too. That skill was meant to halt farming there from the start, wasn't it? I just wonder what effect would it be, since monks have the 'remove enchantment' and warriors blindness... maybe dealing assassins weakness, burning, poison and disease, or better, stealing large amounts of energy from them. Only 5 characters have to deal with Fingers of Chaos, why not all 10? MithTalk 15:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I totally agree with the Fingers of Chaos idea, just make it have effect on the other professions as well, maybe cause daze to mesmers and rits, paragons could get cracked armor or something like that, and sins and dervs could have enchants removed like the monks. Although, on a side note, I thought that sins already could not farm past the first level? My understanding is most sins do a fast farm of the first level looking solely for ectos, am I mistaken? (Satanael 23:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC))

I think that the best option against assassins would be to make Fingers of Chaos work like "Illusionary Weaponry" against them to go around Shadow Form, that way assasins will still take damage, but without taking too much from enemy skills. MithTalk 15:03, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Wait you guys really believe that its ok to change a whole area just because of a fucking broken skill.Like shard said use your brainscells and do the obvious : NERF SHADOWFORM FFS Lilondra *Poke* 17:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Lilondra - what exactly will nerfing shadow form achieve here? The area is still 2-3 years old, offers greens nobody wants and is boring. Yeah, you can take a paragon with TNTF/SY through and roll the area with balanced... but who cares? It's not fun. Removing shadow form won't make the area any more fun. -Auron 17:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm talking about the suggestion they make of changing fingers of chaos,or other things in the area to prevent shadow form from working.Atleast it would make the items you can add a bit more resistant to overfarming.Lilondra *Poke* 17:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

This idea would sadly be at the very bottom of anet's prioities. The live team is working on storage changes and other minor useless stuff for an april release. Don't expect any big changes soon =( --adrin 17:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I never expect anything soon. The important thing is never giving up hope. MithTalk 18:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I don't know, I kinda figured anet didn't want to nerf shadowform, I mean, let's be honest, without shadow form, what good is a sin in pve? Sure, it has plenty of uses in pvp, but a sin just doesn't have the armor for the prolonged, multi-target battles that we have in pve unless it has a skill that can make it virtually invincible. There are ways to render that skill useless, and that is what we would like to see in tombs because the sins have taken over there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that shadowform should be nerfed throughout the game, because if it was, then sins would be useless in pve.

Also, just because anet is working on something doesn't mean they can't fix tombs as well. That's the whole point of discussing the easiest way to fix it, to point out that there is a relatively (emphasis on relatively) easy way to fix it that probably would not take up too much time for the devs. Fixing one of the most outdated and under-played "elite" areas of the game should be a priority for devs that want to keep the game interesting for people, because that is how you keep that all-important variety in the game that keeps people coming back. Make tombs fun again, and I can finally stop driving myself crazy doing CoF runs all the freakin time, not because CoF is bad or that Tombs is better, but simply because I will have the variety and I can switch back and forth depending on my fancy. Because they are not introducing any new content (in any sizeable scale) that means they need to find ways to update and rejuvinate what they already have. It's the same thing with skill changes, half the time they are just changing things to switch it up on people and make them change their tactics, you gotta do the same with the mobs in pve in order to switch things up in pve and keep people interested. (Satanael 05:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC))

There is NO excuse for making a profession being able to dominate all high-end PvE areas. --Boro 08:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Big Deal...it's PvE and sometimes it's just fun to "dominate" the enemies. And having fun is a good enough excuse for doing anything in a game. -- Inspired to ____ 19:39, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I personally agree with Boro, and if you want to dominate the enemies, play in normal mode. (Satanael 04:17, 12 February 2009 (UTC))

Your feedback's been submitted. Cheers. --Regina Buenaobra 05:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

birthday presents

i was wondering.when i get a b-present is it always the same mini? so for ex if i traded some1 a b-present and then he showed me what it was, would i also have gotten that mini if i opened the present?--144.132.144.43 07:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes you would. The contents of the present are randomly determined when it's created and placed into your inventory, not when it's opened --BramStoker (talk, contribs) 08:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok,thx--144.132.144.43 10:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I wish there were an NPC that takes 3 miniatures of the same quality to give you another random one of the same quality, or 9 to give you another of superior quality. Those that everyone have and no one buys and some people even discard would have some use. MithTalk 14:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Bram: are you sure about that? It seems more likely to me (given the way other "gifts" and chests in the game work) that the contents are determined upon opening, not upon creation. --Mme. Donelle 00:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

As the result is totally unknowable in advance, it totally doesn't matter. Misery 01:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Ofcourse it matters!! if a guy shows me what he got from the present and he got a min Gwen i would be super pissed off whereas if it was upon opening i would just say "idk i would have gotten a white one".--144.132.144.43 06:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Why does it matter if events are predetermined or not? You either opened it or someone else did, the gamble was the same either way. Schroedinger's cat, blah blah blah, it's in a quantum state of uncertainty until you open the gift at which point all states collapse into which ever gift you got. You don't know what the state was before the gift was opened, but that doesn't really matter. Misery 08:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I suppose it would be easy to test: if they stack, then it's randomly determined (unless they all contain the same mini). If they don't stack, then it is predetermined. 145.94.74.23 09:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why stackibility would have anything to do with the point in time at which the random seed is generated. Arenanet could program it however they wanted. Misery 09:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what's the fuss with this present fiasco. It's RANDOM, scrubs, learn the meaning of that word and you will know it doesn't matter because you don't know until you gotten it.Pika Fan 10:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, given precedence such as red gift bags, lunar fortunes etc, fungibility has no bearing on whether it is predetermined or not.Pika Fan 10:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Getting back to the subject can anyone give me a firm answer to my question?--144.132.144.43 11:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

@Misery: if the content is determined when they're generated they cannot stack unless they have the same content (if they can stack at all). They would be like 2 different items with the same appearance. 145.94.74.23 11:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Except, you are incorrect. Also, birthday presents don't stack. Misery 11:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Birthday Presents don't stack. As to the original question, in my experience I've found that the contents were determined when it was opened rather than when it was created and thus whether you opened it or someone else shouldn't affect what miniature you get just the timing but then this is just based on two maybe three pairs of presents so isn't exactly fully tested as of yet. --Kakarot 12:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try one last time. If theoretically the presents could stack, then they would all have to be of the same item type (a.k.a. unopened birthday present). They couldn't be predetermined, because then you'd have to stack itemtype unopened Koss with itemtype unopened Lich and that's impossible in GW. Now, since they don't stack, you could hypothetically try to get a lot of birthday presents together and see wheter any of them stack. If some of them do stack with eachother, then it automatically means that they must be predetermined, because they are different types of birthday presents (a.k.a. stacks unopened birthday present Koss, stacks of unopened birthday presents Lich, etc.). If none of them stack with eachother, then it be either predetermined or determined when opened. However, it could, in theory, partially be tested. 145.94.74.23 12:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Ummm, how in the hell would you test that Kakarot? 4 characters all created at the precise same moment all logged in at the moment of their birthday? 4 presents opened simultaneously and you got the same minipet from all 4? I know someone has claimed to do that with spawns and drops, but that took them hundreds of attempts with multiple failures due to lag and the difficulty of split second timing. None of this can be tested, that's one of the great unknowns in quantum mechanics and statistics. In any case you could argue all of it is predetermined as computers use pseudo-random numbers anyway. I'm also curious as to how you know how items stacks are programmed in GW 145.94, have you been in contact with programmers about this issue previously? Misery 12:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Anet can simply make the birthday presents unstackable just for the hell of it, not because it's a different declaration altogether. Even if it is predetermined upon receiving the present, you still don't know what's inside the present, so opening a present that has predetermined contents and opening a present that has non-predetermined contents has no significant difference.

Anyway, it is a hassle to code such that present contents are predetermined when they can simply reuse the system already set in place(red gift bags/lunar fortunes) to decide the contents of the presents.Pika Fan 13:08, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

To be honest Misery, I pieced together scraps of information that I read on the wiki about the way GW's items are programmed (it came up on several storage issues). Each inventory slot is coded to be X times a certain item, where X is a number between 1 and 250 (the binary code will allow them to go from 0-256, using non-infinity variables saves a lot of server space compared to using a real integer (any number)). This means that each inventory slot can only hold 1 kind of item, not different amounts of different items (tomes function a bit different, but they were coded after the birthday presents were designed). Now, I am not a 100% sure it works this way, but it seems likely to me. It also means that your items technically don't exist, and that they're just inventory slots with a certain value attached to them (something like 1 amount of weapon Y with damage X, inscription R with value T, prefixmod U with value V and suffixmod L with value K). It sounds complicated, but they can actually save a lot of server space compared to giving every possible combination (or worse: each item) a unique ID (they may have done so with green weapons though). 145.94.74.23 14:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, it also would explain why it's not that easy to increase stacks: they'd have to switch to higher variables, which require a lot more data to store. 145.94.74.23 14:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Many assumptions there. Easier is assumption is that the outcome is not predetermined, because then they have to store less information at all times, yay. Misery 14:38, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

145, your explanation would increase server space usage rather than lessen it. You have it correct that the stacking values of an inventory spot is 8-bit (which would allow up to 255 items not 256). Let’s say that inventory spaces are 24-bit. The first 16 bits would be used for item identification. That means 65535 items are possible. This number is low because each customized weapon would need a separate ID number because of the username linked to it (at least this is how I’ve seen it done in other games). Wouldn’t it make more sense to have one of those items used per birthday present instead of 14? That would mean a creation of 28 items a year over 15. --Dunyas 16:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, the problem with unique ID's as I see it is that most weapons are randomly generated. I assume that it takes less space to store the variable and the effect type, than it is to store each item individually. Seeing as you'd have at least 10 weapons on average per player, you'd need billons of ID's just to define each weapon, and then you'd still have to store what each weapon actually does. Whereas if you used values to describe each aspect, you'd only need 1 per aspect (and the most complicated weapons have like 8 of them or so). But I am probably overlooking (or not understanding) something. As for the Birthday presents, randomly determining when opening would most likely take the least amount of space, I agree with you on that. 145.94.74.23 16:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but... Does it really matter at all? Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope, that was my original point, but I was bored at work, so I continued to argue. Misery 16:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

@Misery - I tested it with two different characters on two accounts, both were created within the same minute; more than likely even within seconds of each other and on the day of the first birthday both accounts were logged on at more or less the same time. For the first time I tested both characters opened the presents almost simultaneously and received the same miniature, the second time however I opened one then the other after a minute or two or at most five and received a different miniature. There was a total of four characters on two accounts and the first set had a birthday in August, the second in January. Since its just two cases I myself have seen I wouldn't say it's a conclusive study but come August I will have another chance to test it.

Anyway I was merely stating something I have observed. --Kakarot 22:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I see we have gotten into a long discussion but for the third time tell me a straight answer on wether it would be the same or not?!!--144.132.144.43 06:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Short answer: nobody knows, but either way it makes no difference. (If you are bothered by the idea of giving away a present that ended up containing a mini Gwen, then don't give away presents.) --Mme. Donelle 07:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I know for a fact that what Bram said is correct. The mini is determined when the present is created.

I found that out a year or so ago, when it was first possible to raise an attribute to 20 with consumables (and a shrine buff). I went out to kaineng docks to get the shrine bonus for earth, had a 20% +1 earth offhand item and kept using earth spells like armor of earth until I procced 21 earth, then guild wars crashed. I took a friend out, procced 21 again, and both of us crashed. So I took a present out, opened it and found out it was a whatever, then crashed the game. When I reloaded back in town, I still had the unopened present, so I opened it about five times, and each time the present was the same.

Me and a few friends used that trick to make money. If the mini was more expensive than the present, we'd take it out and sell the mini. If it wasn't, we'd crash the game and sell the present as unopened. -Auron 02:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Thx but how did you crash the game? what did you type/do?--144.132.144.43 05:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

By raising an attribute past 20, which at the time crashed Guild Wars. It was a bug. Vili 06:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it was a bug that they've since fixed; I wouldn't be posting it here if it was still valid. But that's just the method we used to find out that minis are chosen when the present itself is spawned. -Auron 07:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

That's nice. Pika Fan 08:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Idling in FA/JQ

I'm writing this post as I'm waiting for my dishonor hex to run out. I was guilty of playing a shitty game with terribly designed mechanics. I'm going to walk you through the previous battle I had in Fort Aspenwood tonight.

First, my friend and I entered. Then we waited a minute. After waiting for the teleporters to activate, I started reporting the five (5) leechers on our team. As I was reading the things I could do through the report menu, I noticed two of them are useless and two of them are pointless - the only ones that would be useful ever are leeching (for getting rid of leechers) and verbal abuse (for getting rid of 8-year olds). Anyway, I reported those five people. Then, I used imbalanced and/or bugged skills to kill bad players running wiki builds. I don't blame them, only like 40 skills in the game are usable anyway. Then I watched our Siege Turtle get stuck because someone on the other team was exploiting the AI and keeping it locked in place behind an obstruction. Then, my friend and I camped the teleport point and killed anything that came through. We knew we weren't going to win, because if you include NPCs, it was a 3v40 battle.

I then got back to town and noticed I had the dishonor hex. In vent I think I said something like "What the fuck did I get dishonor for?" My guildie then explained to me that if one-third of the team doesn't report, you get dishonor for reporting. Too bad more than two thirds of my team was beating off to porn during that match.

So in a nutshell, I got banned because everyone else on my team cheated, I lost because half the people on the other team cheated, and my broken build killed 100% of enemies because the game balancer(s) fail. On top of all this, it'll take days for you to ask the Automatic Comment Generator how to reply to my complaint. ~Shard 10:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I actually emailed PlayNC (the NC stands for Not Caring) and they sent me this :

Response (GM ApplePython) 01/26/2009 03:50 PM

Hello,

In order to receive a Dishonorable Hex, a player must be reported by 10 team members in PvP for leeching, abusing the /report feature for leeching, or repeatedly quitting from matches. If you received a Dishonorable Hex, it was for one of the three mentioned reasons. The hex expires in one hour <---(um no)

Regards,

GM ApplePython

The Guild Wars Support Team

Yeah our support system which you want us to use so we dont bring problems to you is completely uneducated. They care about the game less than most anet personnel does. BTW, i'm afk'ing fort aspenwood while i type this. thx for the free faction. --adrin 10:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah my dishonor ran out, so now I'm spending AFK weekend afk in aspenwood. ~Shard 10:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, is there a way we could get the luxon priest to heal? All he has on his bar is prot spirit. Did they get lazy or is he meant to watch the turtle die on purpose? --adrin 10:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I know we're supposed to Assume Good Faith on this website, but you have claimed on many occasions that you never play the game anymore, or at best log in every fortnight or so. Thus, to me this sounds more of a made-up story to enrage players against Anet than a truthful account. Please supply screenshots of the e-mail you mentioned as proof, or I don't believe you. 145.94.74.23 13:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

@IP [[1]] the only thing i blocked out was my RL name --adrin 13:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

imo you should leech as kurzick instead, it's the high-reward-even-if-you-fail that makes most of the luxon leech, so kurzick always win, we have like 2-3 leechers too and no one report anyway. --Cursed Angel 13:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I would but it takes 20 mins to get into a group in Kurz side since they always win. I got 18 NoP's so i go lux, i only get 2-3 max --adrin 14:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I lol'd at that support that is so typical gw's support /fail for life lol xD If they dont have any real answer they just ignore or jump to another question Lilondra *Poke* 17:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I think he was talking to me. I don't take screenshots of every area I visit, and I don't make up stories. Even if I did, this is all possible anyway, and that's the point - it shouldn't be possible for legit players to be punished because other people are cheating. ~Shard 22:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Aye. The rant at the top of this thread is so true. Just needed to put that out there. calor (talk) 00:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Aye.Did you have to talk like a pirate while doing so ? ^^ Lilondra *Poke* 06:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Comparing this to his past record of discrediting Anet, his recent statements that he has stopped playing the game and his unwillingness to provide any prove, I've decided not believe Shard. 145.94.74.23 08:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Why, do u not play FA there are at least 2 leechers in 90% of games Wild 08:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Then upload a screenshot of when you had 1 fame. You can't, so you must not have any fame. That's bad logic. I don't screenshot every area I go to every minute I'm in them, and you're a fool to think anyone does. I don't discredit anet, they discredit themselves, I just point it out. ~Shard 08:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

While shard isnt exactly saying it ala shakespear (if you ever do I swear to god I'll shoot you),he has a point.Guess what a topic about anet failing at fixing these things and it gets NO attention!This is why gw I is going down and this is while people won't buy GW II but will buy wow instead (Buying GW II would be like buying a fake ipod) Lilondra *Poke* 11:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Yet you didn't bother to answer my question either Shard. How can you experience those things when you're not playing? Either you quit and are lying here, or you didn't and created the false impression that you quit (the game must not be so bad then). Either way, you don't sound too reliable to me and that is why I have reason to doubt your motives. 145.94.74.23 11:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I guess you forgot that we are talking about how bad the EVOLUTION of the game is not how bad it is.We also dont play nearly AS MUCH as we used to because of the bad evolution and balance.If you are saying his story isnt reliable at all then open the game yourself ;).I seriously doubt your motives Lilondra *Poke* 12:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Douting motives to complain about Leecher's, If he plays the game or doesnt play the game doesnt matter, there are many sections on the wiki with people companing about leecher's and i dout anyone that read this post from shard would dout it. 5 leechers in 1 team? that doesnt suprise me, its a safer way to leech because no matter how many times they leech if they have more than what is it 4 people? they will not get dishonorable, because lets face it leechers dont report other leechers for leeching do they? Wild 12:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Exactly! I'd frankly like to see Regina's response to this. So (@145.94..) if you want to challenge Shard's veracity further could you do so on his user discussion page? You've been given the screen shot you asked for. Further watering down this thread by turning it into a Shard interrogation detracts from what is a very real problem that needs an answer (my opinion). 151.209.112.137 13:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Haven't you heard? Regina only responds to things she likes. Sometimes she'll throw an oddball, though. I wish you the best of luck.Vael Victus 15:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

My buddy and I did a match together, I got blocked for one hour according to NCSoft but 10 minutes in reality, then I afk'd the rest of the night since there's currently no penalty for it. If your defense for the game being shitty is that I play an hour more weekly than I say I do, you need to work on your argumentation skills. ~Shard 05:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

No, my defense for the game not being shitty is that you always overreact and repeat the same old boring arguments over and over again. and just have some personal issue with the people who made it. You bitch at GW and it's creators every chance you get, and if you don't get any, you create them yourself. To sum it up: we have all heard it before, and repeating it 10 thousand times won't fix it any faster. 145.94.74.23 08:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I have Shard on my friends list. He's online maybe twice a week. Rarely, he'll be on two or three days in a row. At the other extreme, I've gone weeks without seeing him on. He seems to be on more frequently as of late, but that may just be an anomaly. His sessions range from a few minutes to a couple of hours, but I've never seen him on for more than three hours in a single day.

While we're off topic, I'll mention that I've clocked 3,560 hours over 9 months. On a related note, I typically don't log off, I just set my status to "away" (if I remember) and AFK because my comp is playing music 24/7. That is to say that I see which of my friends are online fairly often; even if I'm not playing the game, per say, I do still chat with friends in passing.

Anyway. With Shard's login habits accounted for, I think it'd be safe to say that he was, in fact, JQing for a few minutes. I wasn't online over the weekend due to a broken keyboard, so I can't, in fact, say whether or not he was online during those exact hours. However, I do think the months-old statement of "I never play anymore" isn't applicable anymore, though it was true at the time.

Anything further in that regard, or can we get back on-subject now? Raine - talk 08:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

No, that will suffice as proof. 145.94.74.23 15:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

145 are you saying that el gore should stop saying global warming is a big problem because we all know by now and no one will fix it earlie because of it ? The things shard mentions have an impact far greater then a frustration every now and then.Dont get me wrong the game is still pretty awesome the thing is that its potential is the top mmorpg not just a just about average one Lilondra *Poke* 18:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Though I am certain Al Gore's reputation surpasses Shard's, I cannot say if that is for the better or the worse. Koda Kumi talk 22:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever considered that the reason I complain about the same things over and over is because...idk, they're still there? Anet thinks their game is wtfawesome. The engine is amazing, except everything else is garbage. The graphics, combat, and mechanics are near perfect, while the actual skills, quests, events, and scripts...stuff that actually goes into the engine, are done without any thought or care. On top of that, zero people at anet actively play the game, and none of them ever test anything, so by the time something goes wrong, we have to wait 10 months for anet to realize something's wrong, and another few months for them to actually fix it. They're so out of touch with reality that it's sometimes sickening. When I talked to izzy's roomie on vent, he said Anet is pretty much abandoning GW1 until GW2 goes live, at which point Linsey will be a god(dess) when it comes to fixing GW1. I'm sorry but I didn't pay for GW1 two years in the future, I want it fixed now. ~Shard 00:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I am skepical of Al Gore and the climate crisis in general. Just like Shard, he has some valid points, some invalid points and some assumptions that are made on inaccurate or created data. That doesn't make him a bad person, though Shard at least tries to improve the game, where Al Gore only preaches and then lives in a house that wastes more energy than a small country. Since I still like the game, you can't blame me for being skeptical at someone who doesn't just point out flaws, but claims the game designers are bad because the flaws are there. Especially when I play through the exact same things and don't experience the things he mentions (or in lesser forms). 145.94.74.23 08:50, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Just to let you know, I've submitted this feedback already. --Regina Buenaobra 05:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

600/smite

Why does Anet reward so much a style of playing that has NOTHING to do with an online multiplayer game? perma-SF, 600 smite, etc. It induces ppl to effectively cheat their way through PvE instead of actually playing it. It reduces most dungeons to one person "playing" and others sitting around doing nothing. IS this what guild wars is supposed to be? I thought, silly me, that it meant you had to actually create strategies, cooperate, do TEAM WORK. But apparently encouraging people to PLAY with other people is not in the agenda. :( 189.33.72.194 12:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Farming or running is not the same as playing through the game. Don't get them confused. They are also not "cheating", because that would imply that it is breaking the game mechanics or exploiting a bug in some way, neither of which applies for such builds.

I think you are also sorely mistaken about how difficult it is to play a 600 properly. It is fraught with dangerous counters and quite fragile. Ever wondered why it costs ~10k or more per person to get through Catacombs of Kathandrax and other tough dungeons? Because it is a challenging run that takes skilled players to accomplish with reliable success. Frankly, even if I generally frown upon running, I can appreciate that kind of skill. It is just like the (in)famous Droks run - it is hard, it takes skill, and I think it ought to be admired if you can do it. Even Shadow Form takes some skill, especially after the latest change to it; for example, have you ever been to The Fissure of Woe? Shadow Form can be used there to farm. However, it is also possible to complete every single quest there solo, playing as Shadow Form. Now, that takes some serious skill and a lot of practice. In fact, I would dare to say that is even more challenging than doing it "the normal way". Thus I can't see the argument why that is a bad thing. The same goes for every other farming/running build in existence.

You can complain about the abundance of people who buy and sell runs, or how many people earn their Asura titles from "leeching" points, or how these types of builds make some places very easy. But I don't think it is fair to discriminate against them across the board. And if you want to complain about ANet not encouraging teamwork, then you ought to be complaining about H/H, not Shadow Form etc. Vili 13:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Well... There is nothing arenanet will do with Heroes. They can remove them from hard mode, but they (logically)won't because they fear the possibility of a big people rage (like the rage at the time of the ursan where hundreds left GW). I don't know where did they get the idea of introducing heroes, but THAT was against the encouraging of teamwork. Where heroes do most of the work, things get boring, people don't find satisfaction in GW. EoTN is a good example how to make things not challenging but broken, but that's another topic.

Now I feel betterBoro 16:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Encouraging and forcing are not synonyms. I play GW in part because there are H&H that I can pick and avoid all the delays and problems of playing with other people. I play with other people too, but when I want to. You can encourage ppl to play in teams by giving better rewards for team play, or by making it more efficient than runs. Taking H&H or solo play out is just not an option. -- Alaris 17:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP's point was the game atm requires you to play a gimmick in every elite area of the game rather than run a balanced party. Compare it to WoW. If you have a Warlock at the end of the game you can be sure you can get into a group because your class is valuable in every part of the game. In Guild Wars the only class that can get into an UW group these days is an assassin and the lucky necro. Guild Wars rewards gimmick builds instead of balanced ones, narrowing down the playable options to the select few favoured at the time due to poor balance in their abilities compared to others. For UW, Urgoz, Deep, FoW and DoA hero and hench are not options. You can put together a team with a lot of effort using whatever you want to bring, but if you want to easily find a group you need to use the favoured class/classes with the most imbalance in their favour. I decided I wanted to finally complete the UW the other day but when I went to join a group I found out that not a single one of my characters was wanted. All they use are assassins and a single necro. I want to see PvE where the meta is a mix between any of the game's classes with all of them performing a viable and thus desirable role in the group. I don't care if the runs are just as short as the assassin ones, as long as people are playing together and are able bring their desired class and be useful. That doesn't seem like a lot to ask but it's currently not possible in the elite areas of the game. 58.106.46.103 18:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Tbh you can run almost whatever you want in (easymode) FoW/UW and achieve a full clear. As long as you follow the basic idea of having a tank, healers, and nukers, you'll do just fine. (This of course assumes you know the area and mobs well, which more than makes up for any lack of "ideal" builds) I've often gone to FoW and The Deep with Heroes in the party and things went just fine. You just have to relegate them to easy tasks like nuking. But I digress - if you want to PUG, it's a whole other story. Vili 18:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Why "As long as you follow the basic idea of having a tank, healers, and nukers, you'll do just fine"...? (carefull with your answer, it can be turned against you in one screenshot) Yseron - 86.64.70.44 18:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Defy Pain warrior, HB or WoH healer, Life Sheath prot, five SH nukers...you'll win. That's hardly ideal, too, just thinking of generic builds. It also assumes you don't suck at playing those class. :P (What?) Vili 18:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you repeat ? Yseron - 86.64.70.44 18:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Nice, Yseron.

90% of PvE is solo player within an MMO format. There doesn't need to be 8 players since there are AI in place. Any area with AI henchmen (or heroes) has to be achievable with just the player and the AI. I just rocked through Proph and Factions with just the AI. The game is very single player, up until you get to the elite areas - which is where the game goes down hill. My view obviously.

A friend of mine brought me NF and EoTN yesterday so I'm going to do all that over the next weekend as my friend was able to Hero/Hench most of that himself, but from what I've been told EoTN just highlights really shitty design. I've heard about all the dungeon runs and find it really really odd. These areas are supposed to be challenging, but a pair of monks or a monk and a mesmer are able to clear them o.O. I like Guild Wars because I could play by myself and still not really worry about it, I could always get team-members, even if they're static throughout (which is lame but anyway) but it does make my go "Huh?" when I hear about all the 600 runs that can be done, especially in EoTN. I still think it's weird you still get the benefit of Holy Wrath even when you don't have the energy to pay for it - which seems stupid to me. Aba Malatu means Forbidden Truth 18:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

If you had a point, I missed it. So you're good at the game and FoW is easy...want a cookie? My point was that you can clear almost anything in the game with a balanced/"trinity" style team, which was in counter to 58.106.46.103's assertion that you must run gimmicks in "high-end" areas to win. Your page only helps to show he is wrong. Vili 00:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

You missed your own point: "As long as you follow the basic idea of having a tank, healers, and nukers". Yseron - 86.64.70.44 18:12, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Nonexclusive claim is nonexclusive. If I had said "You must have X, Y, Z and that is the only way to succeed" then I'd be wrong. But my statement is still valid, because if you do that, you will win. (assuming a typical level of competency) Of course you can do it other ways; you can even Heroway it as you show. But really, we are both trying to prove the same point (that FoW is nothing special). Vili 11:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Look, my point is simple. OF course you CAN do any area in the game, yes, including elite ones, with any class/build, as long as it's a good one. Ok. good. But the fact that there is something completely unbalanced like shadow form or 600 smite means the incentive for THINKING (making a balanced party like you described for elite areas, tank, healer etc), well, that goes out the window, because you have a gimmick, and no one will be encouraged to ... THINK... if they can use godmode invulnerability. So what i'm saying is that balance, strategy, synergy, etc, these should be encouraged. Not god-mode. Take domain of anguish for instance. in the old days you needed a lot of team work, using a tank (which could be ranger, ele, warrior, etc) , eles/ss for damage, monks etc. That required thinking, strategizing, etc. Today? Ursan is gone, but shadow form is here to make it all dumb again. 201.6.50.214 02:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I/we (alliance dudes) don't particularly like using permas because they're.......boring, no matter how reliable. (Especially for them!) It's much more fun to throw together random shit (within reason) and hack it. Sometimes we don't even have tanks. And we usually have at least one shitty build. :p So I can assure you the thinking, strategizing, etc. is at a minimum.

DoA I think isn't a great example because people have always relied on "exploits" (obs tank, sf, ursan, spirit shackles/smite, various bugs) to get through, monsters are just too strong there to take on in a fair and balanced way.

Common sense would say that if there is an easier way to do something, like Shadow Form, where is the incentive to do anything else? I think "fun" is that incentive, but you don't usually see that with PUGs or "srs bsns" players who insist on taking Barrage. Vili 03:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I can feel the sarcasm in the air. I've passed your opinions on to the team. I've been waiting to hear back from them on this. --Regina Buenaobra 05:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

They've received and understand your concerns, IP. --Regina Buenaobra