User talk:Yoshida Keiji/Sandbox

Test build template

Before working on creating a template, I'd like to discuss the presentation.

Suggested mock-up

	/ OgBCoMzDugWgMAG9C6WTbsC	Fire Magic 12+1+1 Energy Storage 12
Equipment	Primary: Staff: 40/20/H+30 Secondary:	Radiant (x5)	Vitae (x2) Attunement (x1) Sup Vigor
Stats	580 86	HCT: x HSR: x	+AR: x Other: x
Usage		Morostav Trail near portal	Flag hero towards foes. Watch skill usage.

Discussion

What about something like above, that is generic to the NPC name and puts like concepts closer to each other, making it easier to read at a glance. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:07, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The first mock-up has in column C more relevant information than column B. This was intentional. I would like the template to ressemble the hero bars ingame with the addition of a weapon description. The reason I ask to be half sized is so that we dont have to keep scrolling down and we can check a whole Team Build at once. Also I think it would be great if values could be pre-set as for example Wyn's heroes templates: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Wynthyst/Template/Heroes2 So that wiki users can have an easy time without having to type a lot. Its good that you remembered the combat mode and the notes section, but I dont understand the purpose of weapon bonuses and armor rate. Yoshida Keiji talk 22:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm brainstorming, not married to anything proposed above. I prefer using simpler interface for the wiki: there's a reason games need to look pretty, but especially for a research project, it should be about data, not style. Wynthyst's templates are designed to show off a player's accomplishments, a different goal altogether.

I don't understand what you mean by more relevant in one column than another: the data is either relevant to the testing...or it's irrelevant. But probably you mean something else and I'm just not following.

Once it's clear what the format is going to be, it's relatively simple to make it easier to specify parameters, including establishing default values. It's possible to create a series of nested templates that would make this easier still, but let's wait to see how many people need something like this before getting too fancy.

The purpose of displaying weapon bonuses and armor rating is that those things almost certainly affect skill prioritization. I'd prefer to see them explicitly displayed: people have a tendency to forget that the AI is able to notice such details.

All that said, you're the driving force behind the current effort and I'm just along for the ride, so I'll follow your lead if there's a question about which direction to go in. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

What I like about Wynthyst's template is this:

< !-- yes, mysterious or primeval -- >

I dont know how to call that in technical terms. But I know that the function of it is to type one of the alternatives. In my last reply I called it "pre-set" values.

By more relevant I mean that for example: Looking at the build I can also see the professions without the need of a E/any reference. I could guess the attributes with the template code. And also sum up from level 20 health 480HP, as long as I have the total health and the weapon upgrades, I can estimate which runes it has applied. Although all together makes it simpler to read. So it is still worth having. I just would prefer the Column C information to be highlighted and Column B like "at the back".

And the same could probably be said about the HCT, HSR...which data is already with the weapon description, as my heroe's staff shows 40/20/+30HP. Yoshida Keiji talk 23:47, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

It's easy to include comments in the usage notes so that it's easy to fill out; that has nothing to do with what is (or is not) displayed. The reason for displaying /, a skillbar, and the attributes is that it requires less thinking to compare builds. Yes, I know that a build using Energy Storage means a primary ele, but I prefer that I can easily see (via colors/icons) when someone is testing / vs / .

That's the same reason it pays to show total health and energy, even though one could figure it out from the Runes/Insignias used. Or vice-versa. Likewise, saying 40/20/30 is simple enough jargon, but it's also useful for at-a-glance comparison to not have to translate that into how much HCT vs how much HSR. e.g. to Yoshida Keiji, 40/20/+30 might have an obvious meaning, but maybe not to TEF.

All of that is even more important if we assume that some (if not most) researchers will be unused to systematic testing. I've run groups of professional and amateur testers ...and even the pros do better work if they can focus their efforts on observation rather than the setups.

Now, while I might advocate that the display include some redundancies (for the reasons stated above), I don't think that means that filling out the template should do so. For example, ideally, entering primary-prefix = Insightful would increment the display for total energy, the weapon mod, and any other elements that needed it. Similarly, attunement=3 would increment energy by +6 and display the use of three attunement insignia.

In other words, I'm recommending that, as a first iteration, the focus on the template is what data needs to be displayed followed closely by how obvious should each element be. Then we can tweak to make it look nicer/more professional and also to be easier for novices to fill out. (My experience is that each of those three tasks is harder if one tries to do them all at once.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Wait wait wait. I am not saying that it should not appear. I am talking about a display level. For example, in the mock-up you made. The top line has a color back-ground which is more eye-catching than the rest. What I am meaning is that such area should have: Weapon, Health & Energy and Build+Template Code. Instead of the current space dedication to: Template, Attributes and Build.

And backing up to Wyn's template, I was trying to say that for example having this menu:

< !-- Attack, Guard or Avoid -- >

Would in my opinion be an easy guidance for other testers. Yoshida Keiji talk 03:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

gww ages

is there a category for people who have been editing for years, yet still fall pretty neatly in the "child" zone? -Auron 15:27, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Check here Wikipedia:WikiFauna. Yoshida Keiji talk 17:20, 25 June 2012 (UTC)