Feedback talk:Developer updates/20100617

This page is about feedback for the Thursday, 17^th of June developer update.

Dervish PvE/PvP/Balance Update

→ moved from Feedback talk:Game updates/20100617

Would just like to say.. HOPE they do not NERF Zealous Vow, as it's used in one of the best PvE builds out there. :o --122.111.184.252 09:25, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Lol, they are buffing the derv, not nerfing it 84.194.38.118 10:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually they're balancing it, so that means both nerfs and buffs. ~ PheNaxKian 12:37, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, they're the GW Live Team, so that means ????????? elix Omni 12:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Dunno about anyone else but i'm hoping for some of that OP love like rits and mesmers. Dinsy 13:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

There's not much they can do with a mostly melee self-buff enchant-based profession, you know? The most I can think of is "removed 3-target restriction from scythe attacks; scythes now hit in earshot range." elix Omni 13:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe give the profession (*gasp*) good support skills? Koda Kumi 14:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

You can't actually see me but I'm making an incredibly strange and amused face at anyone who thinks dervs are being buffed Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:43, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not like Dervishs need a Balance anyway. :S Ranger buff in PvE would've been nice.. --122.111.184.252 07:04, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Dervishes really do, though everyone wants their class to be improved but atm with scythe warriors, rangers and sins dervishes don't really have a defined role in the party. Not to mention the large number of next to useless skills due to nerf after nerf see Pious Renewal and Arcane Zeal. Now rangers i've been hearing alot of people calling for ranger buffs claiming their under powered but i've never really thought that myself. Rangers are very good in a huge variety of roles and expertise is excellent. Dinsy 09:11, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The biggest thing about Dervishes that needs to be fixed is the same things that are wrong with all "Frontliner" classes in GW, which is that they're supposed to be able to take a decent amount of damage so they can put out some damage on the front line but instead the First choice in a Frontliner for tank&spank is always going to be SF-Assassin and Terra Ele b/c the majority of damage dealt to frontliners is usually Spells /w Armor-ignoring damage these days which these classes don't have any real solutions to... Dervishes LEAST of all b/c VoS is a liability in teaming instead of a bonus and all the rest of their Elites like Avatars are also totally "squsihy" in Hardmode (and even on some NM missions like UW & DoA). Anet addressed this problem with Pets but they have yet to do so with the rest of the Front-liner classes who used to be effective at this crap before Armor buffs were prevented from stacking.

So while it's cute that they're going back over all these classes individually... it's also silly and totally ineffective. For PvE; all they really needed to do was allow armor-stacking back in (with reasonable Caps) and then Calculate a specific portion of each class' Insignias/inherent Armor buffs as a % of direct Damage Reduction against everything just like Pets have so that every PvE build on PvX doesn't look like the same copy of Terras/SFtanks out in front /w nothing but more Casters way behind them. So with that in mind, I can already tell we'll be sorely disappointed with these Derv changes. ...Me especially b/c Derv is my "Main" and I just know they're going to kill of the rest of my options for back-line support like they've already been doing with Vow of Piety, Ebon Dust Aura, and Meditation. ...Pity, It really used to be a thinking player's class. --ilr 21:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

"[The Dervish] really used to be a thinking player's class."

LOL Ilr you're a funny guy. ~Shard 22:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Say goodbye to Wounding Strike. lol I have a derv but I just can't get into playing them. --Ravencroft0 04:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

LOL I LOVE my derv, too bad mesmers spam enchant removal now so they are unplayable. Oh and @Dinsy, rangers yes but only to pet skills, pet skills need some serious work, I would LOVE to take a full on pet build. Rogueonion 09:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Just a question beside. Is Ray of Jugdement made to clear everything in Jade Quarry and FA solo? At least it seems so because it is absolutely over powered on Npc. Please increase the HP of JQ and FA Npc or implementate interuptskills on Npc Mesmers. The same HP like in AB would make the difference. It is to easy at the moment; furthermore isnt any teamplay or skill needed to run RoJ Monk there. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.176.232.55 (talk).

The mesmers in FA and JQ have interrupts already. See Kurzick Mesmer and Luxon Wizard/Kurzick Illusionist. --Silver Edge 09:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

So... any thoughts on how long this update is going to take to come out? or at least how long before previews, i'm fed up of waiting Q_Q. Dinsy 21:30, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

June 17th Update

→ moved from Feedback talk:Game updates

Couple points here:
- I don't quite understand how they intend to impliment Dervishes considering their base weapon (scythe) is clearly meant for PvE. What I mean is this: in any organized PvP, you will NEVER EVER see three people just sitting there getting hacked at by a scythe. Now, I may be wrong, but I don't see ANet changing scythe mechanics. It's great for PvE. It blows for PvP. In the case where they change dervishes through skills, you're more likely to see (in my opinion) a Dervish primary with some gimmicky build with a different weapon (sword, axe, bow, hammer, whatever) rather than see a Dervish with a scythe.
- Why is the Test Krewe doing a change to PvP? They're notoriously bad at changing PvE, and that isn't even hard. Defy Pain was a *balanced* skill (please read what I'm about to say instead of flaming): you gave up massive frontline pressure (a Dev Hammer or Shock Axe) for a gimmicky split build which barely had any Lord Damage (a mind blast is MUCH more versatile, doesn't completely suck in 8v8, and does more damage). Instead, they turn an elite skill into a worse version of Endure Pain. Again, not smart, but this is the test Krewe we're talking about.
- They say that the GvG changes and Derv updates have taken a first priority to any other update. I assume WiK doesn't apply. In any case, this means in the next 1-3 months, DoA farming won't be changed (Imbas are perfectly balanced, yo.), PvE won't see the crack of light and GvG will get slaughtered.
What I'm suggesting is that they don't let the same Test Krewe that found Shadowform to be perfectly fine and Ursan to be a great skill touch PvP in general. Make them work on WiK or something, anything.
How about Obs'ing ANet? 75% of the top 100 guilds (let's be honest, it's the top 10 on side accounts, but whatever) run balanced (2-3 frontline, 2-3 mid, 2 monks, a flagger) builds, which is what you want them to run. Sure, most of them run the same thing give or take one build, but that just emphasizes skill. For once, you don't see a palm strike sin in a mAT. How is that bad? The GvG meta isn't terrible, so don't screw with it. Instead, you'll see teams with 5 dervs with swords whacking people. Yeah, that's the balanced we want. ~Iffy 18:08, 18 June 2010 (UTC) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.96.26.217 (talk).

Concerning scythes, see the April 2010 Preliminary Skill Update Notes: "major changes to the Dervish (and in particular scythes)". --Silver Edge 18:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

What month are we in? ~Iffy 19:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.96.26.217 (talk).

Read the rest of that paragraph on that page. Changes to the scythes wasn't intended to be in the Mesmer update, which that skill preview focused on. --Silver Edge 19:19, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

LoL, imbagon changes being saved for the absolute LAST update... --ilr 21:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Feedback

→ moved from Feedback talk:Game updates/20100617

If there is no information on what you're planning for an update aside from saying it's "Dervish" or "GvG", it would be nice if you didn't say anything at all about time frames. It's hard enough trying to stay awake for these quests every two weeks and the revealing of the use for Medals of Honor (which will probably be underwhelming). Now I can waste my time thinking about another mysterious balance update that isn't going to be happening for another two months at the earliest! If you actually had something to say about it then I wouldn't blame you but for crying out loud it just adds undue suspense and even more waiting. You already told us you were working on Dervishes and GvG, there was no need to remind us or tease us on how painfully slow things are going. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

What he said, plus: *yawn*. Idmz 16:40, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Defy pain Changes

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While I'm glad there were changes made to this skill, simply making it a stance may have been a good enough balance because many would have simply started bringing stance removal. Of course I suppose very few people bother with that these days.It simply feels counterproductive to nerf the skill almost totally back to what it was pre nerf BurrTheKing 04:07, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Stance removal skills aren't worth bringing in pvp. ~Shard 07:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Whirling Axe / Forceful Blow. People don't bring stance removals purely for the stance removal, but people do play FB, for example, which just happens to include one. Widowmaker 09:26, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't you know, they had to make it even easier for kill warriors. thats ALL that the changes in defy do=) Make it EASIER to kill warriors, now, as if the Mesmer update had not ALREADY done that. DURH. they are NERFING ALL MELEE CLASSES=) if you do not see it who am I to point it out? Go make a caster like every other meleer out there and suck it up, this is what everyone is telling ME so I pass it on to you. Rogueonion 03:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how nerfing a skill a small fraction of warriors use makes all warriors easy to kill. They have 116 armor vs physical and 96 armor vs elemental without defy. The linear damage reduction on top of all that armor was broken, it needed to be taken out. ~Shard 04:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

mesmer buffs = anti-warrior buffs herro! major scythe changes? that can ONLY be a nerf as I do not see them buffing scythe to anything stronger, Rogueonion 04:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I still haven't figured out whether you're talking about pve or pvp. ~Shard 04:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

LOL who cares? they cannot keep any of it truly balanced Rogueonion 04:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I like your logic. Ignore the subject completely. Don't bother making your point clear, just ramble on about nothing. ~Shard 04:26, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks=) I do not see the point in useless typing anymore, I made my opinion known, not that anet cares or will ever know. Rogueonion 04:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I do however think it funny that one person says keep it "short and succinct" however any explanation would require text, and others say its too vague make up your minds=) Rogueonion 04:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry, in like 2 months dervishes will be disgustingly overpowered. Life Guardian 04:36, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, they will be disgustingly underpowered, they are nerfing all melee classes and buffing casters. That has been the trend why should they change it now? Rogueonion 04:41, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Nah, they are just throwing dice and nerf/buff what the magic 8-ball tells them (see mass elite skill update and mesmer buffs) Koda Kumi 08:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

LOL thanks for the laugh, but I sadly think you are right, I have been testing different builds, but seems to me that discord < the penultimate of noob builds is the only thing that works against the new mesmers so my war QQ has to incorporate this MOST hated of team builds to live=( Rogueonion 09:32, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

That, or you can just smite/shatter their asses. Koda Kumi 21:00, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

So the entire idea is to keep warriors in normal mode, OR Make warriors run more than the given 2 monks, OR make warriors go caster. This seem a bit ridiculous? I tried to run my para through the area where I was having trouble with my war, she died faster than my war did.....;.....hint? MELEE CLASSES HAVE BEEN NERFED. Rogueonion 21:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

...Wait, what? Paragons aren't melee. Do you know what you're talking about? Beside this, assassins were buffed and the Defy Pain change doesn't affect PvE (which seems to be what you're talking about lol). -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 23:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Um Adrenal skills, and yes, they are ranged melee, Take your melee toon out, go fight the mesmer WiK boss on hard mode right outside beetletun in watchtower coast and tell me you didn't get party wiped like 5 times before you killed her. Rogueonion 23:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

No, bro. Melee means close combat. Adjacent range. Spears are not melee weapons. I believe you mean physical classes, as opposed to caster classes. elix Omni 23:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about you, but i use a sword and axe on my para all the time, because para skills, they super SUCK. which makes it a MELEE class. Rogueonion 23:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I think I understand your problem now. elix Omni 23:44, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention, all the anti melee gimmicks work effectively against para, considering ADRENAL skills. so guild wars must view it as melee as well. Rogueonion 23:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I think you're having trouble because you're terrible at the game. Life Guardian 23:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

The fallacy in your argument, Rogueonion, is that you assume adrenaline is a melee mechanic. Beside that point, "So the entire idea is to keep warriors in normal mode" you do realize this was a PvP change, right? --Kyoshi (Talk) 00:10, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

"The" fallacy. You're too kind, Kyoshi. :P (Honestly the only thing he/she is saying that makes sense is that mesmers were buffed... which they were!) -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 00:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

lol yes I guess I am not as elite as you, you are right, nor am I as special as you are, having played this game for 60 months, I am certain you are right. However, the mesmer buffs DID indirectly nerf melee classes and those of us who play them are stuck either with lame gimmicks or in normal mode. Yet, because I see the truth of the matter it in no way means that I am not so good at the game, I have many titles, I have many accomplishments, and I a very much understand the mechanics of the game. so please do not presume to tell me that YOU are so elite that you are better than everyone else, because after all, this is JUST a game and people that are SO elite about a GAME that feel the need to tell others how much they suck are indeed without a life=)so please, clap yourself on the back you insulted me YAY for you your so special!! Rogueonion 00:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

You've owned GW for 5 years and still don't have any idea what adrenaline is or what melee means?

Nobody is ripping you because they think you're bad. They're ripping you because they think you're bad and you're complaining about problems that don't exist, when you clearly don't have any idea what the mesmer changes or the defy pain change have done.

Paragon skills suck? Are you serious? Paragons in pve make your entire team invincible, and paragons in pvp... do the same thing. Not only do they make your team invincible, they have ranged deep wound and solid offspike DPS. They're probably the best profession in the game.

Look, you're allowed to have opinions, but if you're trying to convince people to agree with you, you need to actually give them reasons to. Chewbacca logic doesn't work on most people. ~Shard 00:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

When your game is making support-less conspiracy theories and adamantly standing behind them, playing the elitism card on the person you're arguing against is equivalent to going all in with a 2-7 off-suit. Just saying. --Kyoshi (Talk) 00:32, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) x 5 If you presented yourself like you knew what you were talking about, Life Guardian wouldn't have said that. If you were paying attention, just as many (if not more) of the mesmer buffs were directed towards casters as were directed towards physicals. I play both casters and physicals (some of which were buffed, as I pointed out earlier), both of which can be even more easily hampered by good mesmers. You're being paranoid if you think they're out to nerf all the physical classes. I have never been forced to play any sort of gimmick or lame gimmick to win. Point: you are wrong. :) -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 00:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes of course YOU are right I TOTALLY IMAGINED THIS >I think you're having trouble because you're terrible at the game. Life Guardia MMMHMMM it was never typed by that person they NEVER typed it its right above fool. <sighs I give up you people are so stuck in your "elitisim" that you fail to see the truth. And btw I am not really saying they are out to nerf all melee classes, that was me being humorous, but since you people fail in real life I have no choice but to go back to spamming ArenaNet until they test from the perspective of other classes, to see that the mesmer buffs are too powerful. Rogueonion 00:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Cool story bro. Cooooooool story. --Kyoshi (Talk) 00:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

You are going to have to go insult somebody else, I will keep making my statements of fact as I see fit. so, go tell somebody else how much they suck, because thats all you have managed to convince me that you know how to do in this post. Rogueonion 00:41, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I thought you had given up? Unless you're just being ambiguous about who you're replying to, I should point out that I never insulted you. --Kyoshi (Talk) 00:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

PvE has never been balanced and it never will be. This is common knowledge to most people by now.

There were more anti-caster mesmer buffs than anti-physical mesmer buffs last month. The ratio? About 4:1

Pointing out that you wrongly think other people are being alitist does not make you right about unrelated issues.

You seriously need to take a little while to calm down and gather your thoughts. ~Shard 00:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok stop vandalizing my posts please. Rogueonion 01:24, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Go to dictionary.com and look up "vandalism." I don't think you understand its meaning. ~Shard 01:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes yes, I recognize your Specialness, go be elite or whatever it is that makes you so special and leave me along. Rogueonion 01:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Leave you "along" where? The river?--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 01:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The watchtower. -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 01:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

+1 for Hendrix reference. If you honestly think warriors can't do HM PvE, i invite you to peruse this thread, which shows how a warrior can play the hardest of PvE areas better than any other profession. By your ridiculous complaints in this thread you have shown a thorough lack of knowledge about the game. I don't care how many titles you have, because titles show nothing about skill. They show how long you can grind without being bored. Dervish buffs in the next few months will make dervishes unbelievably overpowered for a while, similar to what mesmers were when they were first buffed. Assassin chains are already ridiculously strong in PvE. Warriors got a couple key buffs making 100b and Erf Shakur more attractive than ever. I don't know why you're saying that a paragon is a melee. They are clearly ranged physicals that have the ability to do a shitton of damage while still supporting the team. Honestly, if you can't do HM with any one of the 10 professions, you need to analyze your team setup, build, and agro techniques and think about what the hell you're doing wrong. Life Guardian 01:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

move along go insult someone else, Rogueonion 02:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you move along yourself? I could have sworn you gave up on us elitists. Anyway, unless some actual discussion starts up here, I think I'm done with this section too. --Kyoshi (Talk) 03:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Good Riddance, Rogueonion 04:04, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you do have a point. There are a ton of counters to warriors. The game was designed that way from the beginning: warriors have the highest consistent damage output, but there are many more ways to deal with them than with caster-based damage. So, smart people thought up ways to get around those counters such as Shatter Hex and Rend Enchantments to retain that high damage output.

With all of NF and EotN's power creep, caster damage now pretty much nears that of a warrior, sure. But the counters to warrior shutdown are still there, and most of them have not been changed since their creation. There is no excuse not to use skills that counter the most prominent enemies in an area (which is basically what a mesmer is supposed to do, a pity the Anet staff does not know.) Koda Kumi 08:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Copies and pastes the last to my page, as I am starting to collect information regarding this to be able to centralize it in one spot, thanks Koda. Rogueonion 08:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow.....I posted 2 lines of text and it exploded into this? And btw I was reffering to Whirling Axe in my first commentBurrTheKing 03:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Necros

I don't know what your going to do to dervs but do mind buffing necros in the game? In both pve and pvp a necro's bar is usually very limited. Although I don't recommend too much of a pvp buff because no one wants B-spike to return, a pve buff would be nice. As of now, the only real bars a pve necro can run with a group is spiteful spirit or minion master. Blood magic damage in Hard mode for pve is too little to be of any impact. There is very little diversity among the elites a Pve necro can use. Most elites like plague signet are just a joke. Others like Feast Of Corruption look feasible but are only viable in places like the deep where the mass amount of foes actually makes it seem like you made an impact. Even the buffed Ravenous Gaze isn't worth the spot. I don't know about the others but if anet reads this (doubtful), I'd like to be able to run a bigger variety of skills in PvE. As for Pvp, I dont really have a problem since they still have LC,Weaken Knees, and Pain Of Disenchantment. Sorry for any inconvenience.The Emmisary 19:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

You have Soul Reaping and can therefore run anything from any profession. elix Omni 19:14, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

yea because people love necros that run fire magic n such right?The Emmisary 19:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

@TheEmmisary, Paste this into your bar, I run this on my necro pretty much exculsively, and shes survivor OAVEEJpGeJ5HMBMI8JA2wCkAWJA Enjoy Rogueonion 21:47, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, necros can run anything in PvE. The best are N/Rt builds, though. (Discord/Necrosis/minion bombing/Restoration Magic.) -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 23:14, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Guys. I know about all the discord, sabway shit. im just saying once in a while id like to play a different elite and use blood magic that actually kills shit in pve. Its not that necros dont have any good bars, its more like 3/4 of our skills are never used and thats pretty fail. btw i will check out the bar :D The Emmisary 17:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Life Transfer and Ravenous can do hundreds of damage against a large group. Order of the vampire can really boost a physical team's damage. Blood has some good utility, it's not all about raw damage. Icy Veins can be really fun with Putrid Bile and Rising Bile. You can do adjacent blood too, with Signet of Agony, Unholy Feast, Contagion, and Dark Aura. Manifold 18:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Large groups arent always abundant and blood magic should deal some raw damage while having minor "heal" capabilities. Most of those examples arent for practical use. Casters dont usually want to be in the middle of a fight casting adjacent damage skills, and finally those scenarios dont occur on a normal pve basis. For example, if I brought those skills for a mission with other players (unless we are running a specialized build) I would get booted or be asked to switch in an instant. The Emmisary 19:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Before power creep, people used to thank me for spamming Well of Blood. Ahhh, the good ol' days. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 03:53, 22 June 2010 (UTC)