Feedback talk:User/Yullive/mess up the Ritualist

General Feedback

Item spells do NOT incur a movement speed debuff, that is only the flag in specific Talamare 00:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

In spawning power, its also easier to do 4% per point then 8% per 2 points, and its better to leave weapon spells at 4% then nerf it to 3%Talamare 00:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Talamare. If you find other strange points, just come up with! - Yullive 08:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a joke. There is absolutely nothing worthwhile, balanced, or well-written here.--Alce What's today's Build? 03:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Its not a joke, Yullive apparently leads a small grp of wiki-ers who really want to 'fix' ritualists... just check out his user page Talamare 04:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

"well-written": maybe you check out my site. I am German and english is a forreign language to me. If you want to read smth well-written in english, take a script of Jakespeare and be happy!

"balanced": The main point is to "mess up". The Ritualist needs this first, before he can get balanced.

Yullive 08:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I agree with Alce. I play a ritualist and frankly it could use some changes. But not this. This is just wrong. - Reanimated X 11:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

A teatcher told me once: "Your opinion is wrong." This teatcher made the same mistake, like you did. An opinion can't be wrong. It can be based on wrong facts. But an opinion it self can be different, from others, can be the same, can be equal, can be interesting, can open your mind for new ideas, etc.. But it can't be wrong.

Maybe you tell us anything of use next time?

Yullive 13:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

First, I'm sure this would certainly help you. A lot. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong. I'm saying that you are trying to "fix" things that are not broken, things that don't need buffing nor nerfing because seriously I have no idea what you are trying to acomplish. - Reanimated X 13:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

While I will say ritualists are very broken, and does need fixing... I wont say I agree that these are the changes they need...Talamare 01:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Reanimated, if you write a single page in perfect German on your own (no, don't ask your mum), we may talk again.

Please don't tell me, the Ritu doesn't need a buff! Maybe the spirits are much stronger in PvE now. But that doesn't help the PvP-player. Even as flagrunner the Ritualist isn't used anymore.

Yullive 16:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) First of all you haven't specified if your suggestions are PvE, PvP or PvX. To me it seems you are trying to change a whole class into something you'd like to play. Second, you are heading in a wrong direction. You are messing with things that are fine as they are. Take item spells for example. Why would they be worse than a spell? They already have a major downside. They don't let you use your weapon and the weapon modifiers like 40/40 and stuff. Plus, why would you compare a weapon spell to an item spell? The prior enhances your weapon while the latter basically removes it. Seriously, your suggestions aren't thought out well. - Reanimated X 17:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"If I speak about balancing/improving skills, I usually do not speak about PvE-skills.

I can't stand PvE-skills. I will not give proposals, how to patch a PvE-skill."

Just a quotation from my page. You would have found it easely, if you would have looked for it.

I am messing with things that ar fine as they are? If I take a look at the communing line, I HAVE to notice that there is something wrong. Which PvP-build of you is based on communing? (rethorical)

Where did I write, that Item Spells have to be worse than spells? I wrote, that the drop effect should be worse. But the cause is even in the same text block. But an Item Spell doesn't have just a drop effect. In this text passage I wrote about the balance between the hold and the drop effect. You should improve your reading skills.

I compare Item and Weapon Spell because they both aren't removable. (reading skills...) And the differenz in the handycap (removing your weapon) I even mentioned.

Yullive 19:49, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I like this one for PvP. Yullive, you have my support. Ariyen 22:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

A suggestion page should never — especially no sublimially — demand reading the submitter's user page.

Following, something about your suggestions:

• You are upping the stakes with the changes to Weapon Spells. On the one hand making them stronger to compete with enchantments and on the other hand adding a hoser (weakness and cracked armor). The problem is that your counters are so incredibly common, most weapon spells'd directly go into the garbage bin. Also the idea of making something stronger and adding stronger counters only leads to more frustrated and extreme matches and lessens the chance of balanced games.
• The argument about hold and end effect has the fatal flaw that many item spells lack the one or the other. And as said above, that lack of a 40/40 set balances double dropping.
• Ritual Lord: A good example of what does not need a fix. There is no under- or over-poweredness issue with it. On top, either your description implies, that Ritual Lord ends after the first death thus making "whenever" redundant and the skill over-all not elite worthy. 5 seconds for using a ritual? So you need lightning reflexes to use 5 second casting time rituals? If the Ritual Lord does not end after the first death, you'll be massively interrupted by each death since a changed skill mid-casting interrupts it.
• Spirit Channeling: Upkeepable 150% Divine Boon on a profession that is balanced out against Divine Favor by having it included n the spells healing amount and a standard air magic +5% armor penetration on a profession which has in favor of usually lacking it higher damage spells than Air Magic does - ridiculously over-powered.
• Wielder's Zeal: Where's the change? If it is so slight, why not showing what it is like?
• Boon of Creation: Never remove a whole archetype of builds (minion master Ritualist) for the whole sake of not fixing anything.
• Ghostly Haste: What was the problem behind its original functionality? Fixing something that doesn't need it is - again - not very intelligent.
• Spirit's Gift: First point; see Boon of Creation. Second point: Light of Deliverance and Extinguish for free on any binding ritual? Now, if that's not over-powered.
• Sight beyond Sight: Apart from the fact that you are again severely weakening a legitimate build (martial Ritualists), fixing something neither U- nor OP'ed your suggestion is surely hard to code because of the target locking and quite under-powered since anti-blocking for spirits really won't give you a victory.
• Spiritleech Aura: It was changed from its contradictory state for a good reason; almost no one used it. In theory it can target enemy spirits but usually this will just make your own worse.
• Explosive Growth: See Boon of Creation.
• Renewing Memories: See Wielder's Zeal.
• Wielder's Remedy: I can only see you want to weaken Enchantment removal. I can't recall it being a massive problem for ritualists. Recharge on vital enchantments exists for balancing reasons. Keep that in mind.
• Armor of Unfeeling: Weren't you talking about Communing's bad state? What does this do regarding that?
• Attuned was Songkai: I recall you saying rewarding hold effects. I don't see it here. In fact, what is wrong with current Songkai?
• Reclaim Essence: Elite self-heal on a profession with plenty of healing skills that heals for maybe ~100 health and has a recharge twice as high as other available skills?
• Consume Soul: Essentially removes its summoned creatures removal effect and at the same time aims for being by far too good in a 8-man ritualist spike (680 health and 48 energy steal kills every monk without extreme reflexes).
• Energetic was Lee Sa: See Wielder's Zeal.
• Spirit Siphon: Weren't you talking about better use of spirits' energy in the header? You nearly tripled the recharge and halved the reward.
• Weapon of Fury: Plain yet not extreme nerf for a skill that was fine before.
• Renewing Surge: Half of Blood is Power, non-elite, without sacrifice, for all party members. Too good for its energy gain, fairly bad for damage.
• Weapon of Renewal: Slight nerf to achieve... nothing?

Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 23:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Ty, Ariyen. I moved it to only PvP (I don't care for PvE-balance anymore, anyway).

I thank you a lot, Noctarch! Productive critic always helps a lot.

If you allone think about so many skills and compare them with the hughe amount of the other existing skills, you fail a lot.^^

• Well, to shorten the duration of Item and Weapon Spells by conditions is just an idea of mine. It is no "has to". Maybe now it is better writen.
• "The argument about hold and end effect has the fatal flaw that many item spells lack the one or the other. And as said above, that lack of a 40/40 set balances double dropping." The balance between holding and droping is something I just want to call into mind. To use these relations in practice is realy hard and often impossible.^^
• Ritual Lord: The skill is great like it is right now. But I please Anet for a new spirit concept. I didn't drop my idea of it right now, but I think, it would turn Ritual Lord useless in a way. This is just a creative idea, which came into my mind. If it is balanced is hard to say without testing.^^ Important is to mention, that it only workds, if the spirit die "natural".
• Spirit Channeling: I nerfed it a bit. Mayby I feel to guilty of its last nerf (which wasn't even in the change log of the updates) and want to comfort the spell.
• Wielder's Zeal: No change. Just wanted to mention it in the list of enchantments of the Ritualist.
• Boon of Creation: You are right. Poor Minion Rits.
• Ghostly Haste: "What was the problem behind its original functionality?" The problem is that the Ritualist has a poor use of it. How many builds do you know, which use it realy effectiv? I have some on my own, but they all have energy problems to use it well. Together with Songkai it is nice. But it needs spirits and many Rits use their secondary for that. Faster binding is a good choice I think. Even for the name.
• Spirit's Gift: You'r so right.^^
• Sight beyond Sight: Spirit's Strength isn't a spell, I like to see for the Ritualist. This Elite kinda creates a new class. The two other spells (Sight Beyond Sight and Weapon of ) are spells which only fit together with Spirit's Strength. And Spirit's Strength is only realy effectiv with these two spell. These Ritualists are nice, but no Ritualists anymore. It's like I would give a Warior an elite healing spell, a condition remove and a block spell and tell him to go into the backline.

If you controll 3-4 active spirits and your are able to let them focus any foe you want to AND they are unblocable, it does help a lot. So you can use spirits like Wanderlust, Disenchantment, Disonnance and Shadow Song tactical, which is an activ gameplay and effectiv.

• Spiritleech Aura: see Ritual Lord
• Explosive Growth: See Boon of Creation.
• Renewing Memories: See Wielder's Zeal.
• Wielder's Remedy: You are right.
• Armor of Unfeeling: That's a good point. I thought long about moving it so Spawning Power as a bundle-based enchantment or leaving it at Communing as a self protect of the Ritualist. I think it is the best to to chose Communing.^^
• Attuned was Songkai: I just thought about turning Songkai more activ, but I will leave it.
• Reclaim Essence: The caster gains energy. You miss understood it.
• Consume Soul: It even doesn't work on Minions right now (even if the description tells so; but maybe they changed it in an uptade and I didn't gathered it). You are right about the spikes. This is what I didn't figur out. ty
• Energetic was Lee Sa: It has some handycaps which leat me to the desicion to decrease the energy requirements.
• Spirit Siphon: Care, the spirit doesn't lose all his energy! So the caster can use the Spirit Siphon again. And this change is important for my spirit concept.
• Weapon of Fury: Ok, reworked it.
• Renewing Surge: Oh, I still wanted to nerf it. Thank you for remembering.
• Weapon of Renewal: It doesn't require an attack SKILL. The monk, who is attacked in melee can use his caster sword for one hit and gains energy out of it.

Yullive 07:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• Ritual Lord: Even if it works only on natural deaths the usage problems I have mentioned still occur and make this skill nearly unplayable or just too hard to use.
• Ghostly Haste: Actually any self-sufficient Channeling Magic ritualist. They tend not to need secondary profession energy management.
• Sight beyond Sight:If people still consider taking Rigor Mortis (because it does something besides making Spirits unblockable), this has almost no competitive use.
• Spiritleech Aura: Yes, but if you read why it was changed you'll see almost no one used it in the state you propose.
• Reclaim Essence:Oh, this is very clunkily worded. Try: Target touched allied spirit loses 5% (of its) health and you gain that much energy. After 3 seconds that spirit dies. . In this state it might cause massive problems, because it is essentially unlinked allowing monks to use it (the spirit doesn't even need to be theirs but the support ritualist's).
• Spirit Siphon: People use Essence Strike for this rate of energy gain, and that even deals damage.
• Weapon of Renewal: The point is that you reduced the gain by 1 and removed the ability of triggering from ranger or paragon skills. Especially interrupt rangers had good use for it (well, when thy needed spamming them).

Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 07:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

• Ritual Lord: Well, hard to use is hardly right. But it allows you to use spirits Binding Rituals of any attribute. You dont even need to invest points that attribute. And you can also use binding rituals of allies or even foes. It is hard to use, but on the other hand it has a high potential for skilled players. The 5 sec to cast are set down to 3 sec right now. xD I have to upload my spirit concept soon.^^ I propose Binding Rituals which are cast in 2 or 3 seconds (related to its strength). Well, now you would argument that one would need lightening reflexes to cast a 3sec spirit in the time-window of 3 sec. Here my idea for Ghostly Haste comes to play.^^ {this idea is pretty experimental, but even an idea for high skill gameplay}
• Ghostly Haste: better now (range!)?
• Sight beyond Sight: strengthend(does this word exist?) a bit
• Spiritleech Aura: My propose gives energy.
• Reclaim Essence: True point. I changed it a bit.
• Spirit Siphon: It does give the caster more energy. Well, I increased energy gain again, because of my spirit concept coming soon.
• Weapon of Renewal: poor Ranger, having a terrible energy management

Yullive 21:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

No offence intended

• Ritual Lord -

5 ¼ 15 - (Spawning Power) - Elite Enchantment Spell. (15 seconds) Whenever a Spirit in earshot dies, Ritual Lord becomes the Ritual to this spirit for 4 seconds, using your Spawning Power attribute. Every time this happens, you gain 1...8...10 Energy and your non Ritual skills are deactivated for 3 seconds.

I randomly look through your suggestions and find that I can't understand what you mean(example being the above). Mind clarifying some of the descriptions and clean up the language? Pika Fan 22:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It is a weaker, energy returning version of Echo. Koda Kumi 11:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Clamor of Spike

Heroes Ascent just weeped after reading that. Frosty 00:08, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I feared this too. Should be better this way. -- Yullive 20:58, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Why this is a bad idea

Indeed, rits need some drastic changes. But you are only using logical loops, not answers to the current problems. Let me clarify this.

<<The Ritualist has 3 kinds of skills, that only he owns. Item Spells, Weapon Spells and Binding Rituals. I like to call it the Rit Trinity.

These 3 special abilities should be the base of every Ritualist build.>> Not a terrible idea, but it has some problems. First, skill slots. Skills like Spirit Boon Strike and Wielder's Remedy are not used for this reason. With an item, a weapon, a res, and at least 1 spirit, you have used up half of your bar. And then, you have to take things into account like energy management and self-defense. That would be a logistical nightmare. The second problem is the role of the character. A profession should be able to fulfill a role in a party without being hampered by innate build constraints. If you want a ritualist healer, item spells are not going to help him. Koda Kumi 16:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, what I wanted to explain is the idea of the Ritualist with builds, based on one or two of these skill-types. Like a Ritualist that uses a build based on one or two Spirits. The other Ritualist uses Weapon Spells as his foundation. The third maybe uses Item Spells AND Weapon Spells. That is the idea the Ritualist once was about.

You wouldn't HAVE TO use Weapon Spells as a Ritualist-healer. But you could use one or two. And some are helping healers. As example my version of Vital Weapon or Weapon of Warding. Yullive 16:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

<<They should be as strong as enchantments are, because they are spells like enchantments. Well, enchantments can get removed by foes but every player can just wear one weapon spell. So it does nearly offset the removal problem.>>

By this logic, Wail of Doom is a balanced skill because it only removes 1 person from the game at a time. Weapon of Warding has always been a pain in the arse to balance. It is an unremovable version of Guardian, a skill that needs to be removed in order to let balanced teams succeed at killing someone. Making weapons as strong as Spirit Bond or Aura of Stability is a bad idea. Koda Kumi 16:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

You are right. Weopon Spells shouldn't be at the same lvl like Enchantments. I always wanted to add "nearly". But pls still call into mind that a Weapon Spell can defent you against Spells, Attacks, Conditions, or Hexes. But you can wear 4 Enchantmants which help versus all of these. Yullive 16:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

<<A lvl 15 spirit is save from most aoe-spells, which kill today a spirit even without targeting the spirit in a few seconds. And a Warrior does need more than a few attacks by his autoattack.>>

Spirits are like living versions of party-wide enchantments. As enchantments can be removed quite fast, so should spirits. Making something like Shadowsong resistant to non-armor-ignoring means strategic placement is not important anymore. Koda Kumi 16:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Can Enchantments get removed by auto attacks only? No, they can't. The foe need anti-Enchantment abilties. Thats what I want for Spirits too. And still you are able to kill them by auto attacks. And strategic placement still takes an important role. What about skill-range? A caster has to leave his line to cast on a Spirit out of Range. A Warrior needs to get into melee to hit a Spirit with his anti-Spirit Skill. Yullive 16:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

<<The enemies have to focus the spirits. But if they do, the spirits die quit fast.>>

If the enemy team has to focus on NPC's instead of on your party members, they are at a huge disadvantage because they are not doing any pressure. Koda Kumi 16:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

What does a Mesmer do, while removing Enchantments? Right, he focuses the player wearing this Enchantment. But he does no preasure neither. He just casts a Spell which removes the enchantment. Ok, with Shatter Enchantment, or equals you also do preasure. But what about Banishing Strike? What does he effect by casting Consume Soul? Yullive 16:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

What does this even mean!?

"The Ritualist is not clearly/well-defined. This Profession is a whole chaos. He has some of all and does nothing right. There is a need of a clear image, what the Ritualist should be like. Some "rules" could be helpfull."

I don't even....I can't.....WHAT IS THIS!? Karate Jesus 16:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm so sry, but English still isn't my mothertongue. Why don't improve my language by giving me a hint? Yullive 16:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)