Guild Wars Wiki talk:Formatting/Missions/Archive 2

Faction Rewards Template

I'll be honest here, I archived all that before I properly looked through all the old talks about this and looked at the mission pages.

But anyways, Has there been any reason why some missions use Template:Mission reward while others use Template: Mission Rewards? I'm in favor of (where applicable) putting in the second template on mission pages. It makes it a lot clearer what the faction rewards are, as they are currently buried in other text in the Notes section. Let me know if I've gone and been and idiot and missed something.

Also, has there been discussion on why at least the simple table isn't included in the Prophecies missions? They may not have as much information, but it'd be nice to show it on the page itself instead of just the Cooperative mission page, which might not be the obvious place to look for most users. ~FarloTalk 08:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I must admit that although I prefer the appearance of Template:Mission reward, Template:Mission Rewards does save the user going to the Coop mission page for the reward - which even I had no idea about. I've produced a template at User:Chieftain Alex/Template:Mission Rewards Prophecies, except it would need a column for skill points (basically any reward in Hm gets a point and every reward except prophecies bonus gets a skill pt) --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 14:33, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

fixed. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 14:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

That looks about right for Prophecies and the majority of Factions, and the 5 missions that rewards faction (Boreas, Gyala, Arbostone, Eternal Grove, & Unwaking Waters) can use Template:Mission Rewards easily.

For Nightfall, currently Chahbek Village is the only one with the template that shows faction, and it should be easy to just copy/paste that template into the others, especially since the patch notes already say the amount earned.

Then there's how we're going to re-word the sentence about the faction in the Notes section; I was thinking something like "The 13 November 2008 update introduced reputation rewards for the first time the mission is completed." but swap "reputation" for "faction" in Factions.

I also made User:Farlo/Sandbox 2 for the Eye of the North primary quests, thoughts? ~FarloTalk 17:52, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Why not simply create a template with a campaign parameter so that the rows and columns change based on campaign, then add an #if tag for a reputation column to disappear if the reputation parameter is unused. One template is better than 4.

Also, you can save scrolling space by putting hard mode stuff in parentheses, much like hard mode levels of NPCs. Just a thought. Konig/talk 18:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The only annoying part of that is that each campaign basically has different things we need to show, at least in different orders. We'd have to have the template skip the objectives for the Prophecies missions and then have it skip skillpoints and gold for EotN, as well as letting you choose what faction/rep you receive in Factions/Nightfall. I guess it wouldn't be that complex, but I don't know how you'd go about making that all fit into one, I'm not that familiar with the #if tags. ~FarloTalk 01:59, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The simplest means would be to create 4 different tables completely surrounded by if tags; a more complexe version would be to have each column and row surrounded by them with only experience not. Though it would be easier coding to have 4 separate templates, I think it'd be cleaner/easier on the pages with one template that has an additional parameter and, imo, that is what matters more. If I wasn't stuck to a cell for the wikis (my university seems to have them blocked on their computer labs and laptop is acting up on internet) I'd create an example. Konig/talk 02:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Ouch, well good luck with that and I'll see if I can figure this out :P I was probably going towards having the entire thing under if tags, each one by itself might get confusing. ~FarloTalk 02:33, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Found some interesting code on the original version of one of the templates, uses IF structure - Also found |- class="hiddenStructure{{{master}}}" type of table in the row entry.. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 11:19, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm all for maintaining three (or four) different templates, one per campaign. This will simplify the convoluted #ifs and make it easier to maintain the templates in the future. Whether it's invoked via {{Template:Mission rewards|prophecies|(parameters)}} or {{Template:Mission rewards prophecies|(parameters)}} doesn't make much of a difference, thus we should pick the structure that's easier to maintain for future editors.

If you need help with the programming logic, I can help. I'm not too much into mission rewards right now. How many missions do we have that deviate from the information given here? Augury Rock (ascension bonus), Unwaking Waters (either faction), Chahbek Village (fewer rewards).. any others? Tub 12:27, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I honestly don't care which way it goes or how the templates are named, the bigger question is getting them working properly. I don't remember exactly, but I think Chahbek was the only one in Nightfall to mention faction rewards in the table, and some of the Factions ones that rewarded faction as well, but none in Proph afaik. ~FarloTalk 18:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Do the prophecies missions award gold on normal mode? This wiki says they only award gold on hard mode, but that may be outdated. Can someone with a suitable char please test? Tub 20:43, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Tested Divinity Coast NM - no cash for mission completion {only bonus but its a special mission for that} --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 21:33, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I setup Template:Mission rewards which is now fully working. The parameters are the same as the ones used in the existing templates so all that would have to be done would be to copy the template name over and specify the campaign with the initial. If I got approval i could implement the template across nightfall missions and add the sunspear/lightbringer pts too. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 16:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you add some example invocations below the template (like I've done here)? That'll make it easier to see the results.

Since mission rewards are equal for most missions in a given campaign, it'd be useful to assign default values, e.g. {{{XPNMstd|1,000}}}. That'd allow us to use {{Mission Rewards|Nightfall}} in most articles, with no further changes.

One last thing: for consistency with other templates, it may be better to use the full campaign name as the first parameter, not just it's first letter. Tub 13:25, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay I've changed it to full campaign name and added default options. On the one test page i have setup at the moment (User:Chieftain Alex/sandbox), you can see that if the hidden arrows <!-- --> are not used to hide the parameters that normally produce defaults, then the cell is blank even if the expression | XPHMstd = is set equals to a blank. (alternately I could just delete the parameter option when i want the defaults to show; but it would be ideal if I could just leave it blank and it would display the default. ideas? (or just delete it since each mission has to specify the bonus bit) --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 17:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

If the parameter is given, it should be used; if you want to see the default value, don't specify the parameter.

You could work around that by using something like {{#if: {{{Param|}}} | {{{Param|}}} | 1,000}}, but that's not how our other templates work. Tub 18:24, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Pro-fix. okay I'll get around to implementing examples when I have time. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 18:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Examples implemented at User:Chieftain Alex/sandbox. Works, but I'm not sure what format to use for the conditional bonus XP for augury rock. (Also the EoTN one is largely redundant - I quite like the current formatting for eotn without the template using bullets.)--File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 23:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I did some edits on your sandbox; hope that's ok. If not, just revert them.

Similar to gold, we might use the skill point icon () to denote gold skill points, and we might use the world map icons to prefix the "normal mode" and "hard mode" texts. Though there's always a fine line between prettifying and overloading. Opinions? Tub 11:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

(no problem at all with editing!) You can try out the skill point icons if you like, I'm not sure about having lots of those in a table though. We could use the World Map icons for Standard/Expert/Masters reward in the table - not quite sure about having Hard mode and Normal mode icons tbh.. Any ideas on the divinity coast box btw? (has bonus non-standard gold reward) --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 14:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Mission rewards article

On this topic, I think we should move the reward information from Cooperative mission#Mission rewards and Hard mode#Mission rewards into a new article called Mission rewards. This would give us a convenient article to link in the mission rewards template for clarification - currently, the template doesn't even indicate that the rewards are one-time-rewards per character, so IMHO a helpful link is in order. Objections / opinions? Tub 12:27, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, those pages look like they've just been thrown together as the game evolved, seems about time that we fix/finalize them all. On a side note, has anyone seen a Youtube of the GW1 panel from PAX? I haven't been able to and I'd like to see it. ~FarloTalk 18:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Resurrecting this thread...

When I have time I'll go and fix up those template I made so long ago + start incorporating them. File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 19:36, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Skill Recommendations

This is something that has really been bothering me for sometime. As we all know, from the three campaigns, Prophecies is the one that takes longer to max your character level as well as Ascend it. The same length of time to capture elite skills. I am finding unreasonable that some missions suggest skills that new players will not have access to yet. Although veterans may find useful tips. I would like to suggest that the first case of players be taken into consideration and not over-edit other editor's skill tips with meta ones. Yoshida Keiji talk 22:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

As per the guideline, you're suppose to suggest types of skills anyway:

"Suggest types of skills which will assist the player in completing the mission
Provide any skill tips which players can use to help make a build to easily, or at least successfully, complete the mission. Suggest by skill function rather than actual skills or professions, as not everyone has all the elites or all of the campaigns." --Silver Edge 23:33, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Generally, the recommendation should be caster hate rather than Backfire, protection rather than Union, stance-removal rather than Wild Blow. Sometimes, it's helpful to have an example or two. Rarely, a particular skill makes such a big difference that it's worth mentioning, e.g. it changes a mission from being difficult/impossible to easy/hard (for example, in Moddok Crevice, YMLAD is the only single skill to both snare and cripple the runners).

When editing, I try to reduce the number of examples to one or two, rephrase to link to the generic skill type (or even tactic), and generally allow people to run whatever customized team they like. In practice, I am sometimes too hasty (e.g. my recent edits to Imperial Sanctum probably left too many specific skills). In other words, consider that all the articles have been written by someone who, like yourself, just wants to see the best and most useful possible advice...but we none of us are perfect. Which is why it's a great thing that this wiki is a community effort; there's nearly always someone who can fix our mistakes. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:03, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Mission Infobox

{{Mission infobox
| name = 
| map = 
| campaign = 
| region = 
| type =
| partysize =
| requiredhero = 
| duration = 
| preceded by = 
| followed by = 
}}

I belive this is a late version which was not updated in the former page. Yoshida Keiji talk 04:57, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to change it to that on the main page. You won't need any concensus for that. By the looks of things, the "partysize" thing is only missing from this page and most of the missions already have it. File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 19:36, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Updated. It turns out the infobox defaults to partysize = 8. I don't think any work on actual articles will be needed to reflect this minor change. File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 12:55, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Listing sequence

Guideline points Skills Recommendations before Hard Mode. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Yoshida Keiji talk 05:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking to myself, anyways... I have just realised that Interactive Objects section is not listed in the guidelines syntax...And I still think that Hard mode should be before Skill recommendations, because the last comes from players and not the game itself...(echo) (echo) (echo). Anybody has opinions? Yoshida Keiji talk 11:38, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Sure, no objections here. I didn't think we'd need a "skill recommendations" section actually, since I'd rather the recommendations be made as part of the walkthrough instead. -- ab.er.rant 10:31, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sometimes I might place a skill into walkthrough but only to give a clear illustration. I prefer to leave Skill recommendations at the very bottom so that pages won't read as certain skills are vital to succeed. Once difficulties had been addressed, it should be the player's choice to see how is going to handle the situation and check this last section if clueless only. If we get to agree with this, I will be pulling this section to go below Hard mode to all mission pages as well. Also remember to consider the proporsal to give Interactive objects its own section (which is something I had been doing). Yoshida Keiji talk 10:52, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. The skill recommendations could be something like a quick reference or something. So you'd read the walkthrough for details, or if you just want tips, look at the recommendations. -- ab.er.rant 11:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Overview

I have noticed some overviews contain spoilers. Shouldn't such content be left out instead? Yoshida Keiji talk 15:17, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Presumably, if someone is reading the mission article, they are expecting to learn something more than the mission requirements; anything beyond that is a spoiler to some degree. It's a bit like suggesting that movie critics never include spoilers in their reviews; I'm aware that some will do so without bothering to warn me, so I don't read reviews unless I'm prepared to accidentally find out whodunnit. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

To be honest all these years I never knew mission pages had overviews as I scrolled down inmediatle after loading and went straight to walkthroughs. Now that I am editing with guidelines that I have learn of it. So, I believe that overviews should still be clean of spoilers and in any case expect such kind of notes only at the last half of a walkthrough. But not in the overview. Yoshida Keiji talk 03:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Rewards

Although all of the missions in guildwars have multiple rewards, we seem to have the singular "reward" as the default in Factions and Nightfall? This seems odd to me. I'd like to finish off the rest of the mission articles with the new template described above, but I won't until I see some words of wisdom here, such as "change the GWW:MISSIONS article, nobody gives a damn alex". File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 19:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

"change the GWW:MISSIONS article, nobody gives a damn alex". As long as the template works and nothing breaks, I don't see why not. ~FarloTalk 19:46, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

While I have a marginally captive audience, I've noticed some pages list the bonus as *BONUS*, whereas some list it as Bonus. I prefer the second but its a bit more detailed than I feel like editing atm. Thoughts? File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 19:56, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I think we should keep the wording between GWW:MISSIONS and GWW:QUESTS consistent. Unless you feel like adjusting every mission and quest article in existence, "Reward" works just fine.

It may also be prudent to give others more than an hour time to voice their opinions before implementing policy changes. Tub 20:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Out of those two, I definitely prefer the latter. Adding the all-caps and stars just makes it look un-professional (for lack of a better word). ~FarloTalk 20:20, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Although that is how it appears in-game. --Silver Edge 06:08, 10 February 2012 (UTC)