Talk:Guild Wars Beyond/Archive 3

Winds of Change

Oh Oh I've got a theory ... and i'm looking for confirmation XD ... Winds of change, and the similarity of that name to The Jade Wind, since we killed Shiro already ... years ago, wouldn't it be time to start thawing out the jade sea and the echovald forest? ... not completely cause i know that'd take the team too long to do it ... but just the start of it? Sneaker 08:15, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

LOVE that idea :D though they would have to use something like they're quasi-phasing quest thingies (like how after completing the War in Kryta you can only get back to the changes places by having the related quests?). Also, that would eat up a lot of produciton hours if they had to revamp an entire explorable area (continent) just for some content but it would be WONDERFUL to see! :D 161.184.88.202 19:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I got more of the impression of the jade wind caused the luxons and kurz to start warring more, so the winds of change might be the start of ending that war and uniting cantha.--Elemental Phantom 21:30, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

My fantasy is below :)

I think that after defeating Shiro situation in Cantha became more or less stabilised; Kurzicks and Luxons are in stalemate permanent conflict and Emperor with his guards is somewhere between/above them both. As a result, this conflict cannot be a reason of deep changes. Intervention from other lands is possible in theory, but not very probable, Cantha is too far from Tyria and Elona and cannot be easily occupied; also there is no much reason to do this. So, we need to find the source of the problem inside... My point, this can be Mhenlo. Honestly, I never trusted this guy completely. We still know too few about his childhood and especially his parents. A new plot machine can be somewhere here...

Imagine Mhenlo as kind of Anakin Skywalker. His internal darkness eventually wakes up and begin to move him... to the dark side. And he attempts to convince his Kurzick friends to follow after him! Real horror will meet us in Echovald forest, which will change like a Jade Sea a few hundred years ago. Eventually we will participate in an epic battle between light and dark sides...

Fantasy is out :) --Slavic 21:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Returning

So, I plucked little quote out from the Massively interview...

"With the seals between certain realms weakening as a result of events from a Halloween previous, some of the members of the Lunatic Court have been able to slip out as well. They have been acting independent of the Mad King in an attempt to free him, but their plans may be attracting the attention of someone else who would like to return to Tyria... "

Lich? Menzies? Random enemy that we don't know about yet and likely won't until the release? Speculate away!

~Reez 21:43, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, last year halloween was the introduction of Dhuum so i'm gonna go with Menzies and his shadow army for this year.Damysticreaper 22:05, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

ohhh yay :) --Nick123 22:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes please, add Menzies to the gameplay, that would be awesome, I don't really care about Lich though--Batousai 22:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Someone else returning? Maybe it is someone we don't know much about, perhaps the Nameless Lich? --'Mai Yi' talk 01:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Mayby shiro? Coz of the Winds of Change? (little referance with the Jade Wind thing) --Mann Of Light 22:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Wedding

as obviose as it may be the part about that gwen is going to have her wedding before chrismas is speculation it sais there is going to be costumes for a wedding before christmas coud be somone else that is getting maried (im hoping for somone else gwen is a bit too obviose)greetz Naloj 15:31, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Would be fun if mad king thorn would return and marry salma, but i don't think that would happen.Damysticreaper 17:18, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

That would be like a woman marrying her dead grandfather. 216.125.49.252 17:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Better for gwen than for some random gw fansite/wiki/etc person with favor in anet who wants to have an in-game wedding. :P 64.245.3.212 23:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

i think this can go away it has +- been confirmd with the new intervieuw on massively (edited it back)Naloj 11:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it's Cynn and Mhenlo getting married?? 90.200.129.148 19:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

"Broken Link"

The 3rd reference, when clicked on, shows this message on the website 'Invalid Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator.' Can't do anything personally. 90.200.54.245 19:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I had the same problem and I REALLY want to see where this information was gleaned. --Musha 23:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

In the absence of a confirming link, shouldn't we remove (or hide) the Hearts of the North reference?  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:24, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

That reference was of leaked information and the thread was quickly deleted. However, the content is now out, thus doesn't need a reference. -- Konig/talk 23:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

URL of the dev update: "Hearts of the North" 64.245.3.212 23:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Prophecies? Eye of the North?

Does it really make sense to associate a campaign (or expansion) with GW:B content?

• War in Kryta takes place in a Kryta that only geographically resembles the Prophecies Kryta; the world has moved on since Rurik's (second) death.
• The Trial of Zinn is part of Asuran Allies, which makes it part of WiK — it is not a third component of GW:B.
• Hearts of the North takes place in post-WiK Kryta and in the Hall of Monuments (which is EotN).

Consequently, I've removed the campaign reference and reduced the entries of official GWB to the two quest/mini-mish sequences, WiK and HotN.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:50, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

"The Trial of Zinn is part of Asuran Allies, which makes it part of WiK — it is not a third component of GW:B." By that reasoning, half of Hearts of the North isn't Hearts of the North or related to it, because it's a requirement for the War in Kryta. However, I fullheartedly agree that we shouldn't be linking these to the previous campaigns. Guild Wars Beyond, like Zinn's Task, Nicholas, and the Zaishen quests, is effectively all games rather than any individual or a core setting. Regarding the Trial of Zinn, it isn't really a chapter but I wouldn't say it is necessarily part of the War in Kryta. It's connected to it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Zinn gets a future expansion on his story (including Blimm and perhaps Livia, setting the stage for Blimm's interest in necromancy, his disconnection to the Eternal Alchemy, and his rise in golemancy which was even hinted in the WiK, and Livia getting the Scepter of Orr for a time). I expect that we'll be getting a "Revenge of the Zinn" sometime in the future. -- Konig/talk 01:23, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

A clarification on the whole of my comment: I think that the War in Kryta is intimately tied to at least 3 other chapters, and we know it is with 1 and the source of a second (Evennia in Ascalon). That said, I'm not opposed to the removal of the Trial of Zinn, just opposed to the reasons behind it. -- Konig/talk 01:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad we agree about the outcome b/c I'm having trouble following your reasoning today, Konig. I'll ask those offline or later — I would rather see you continuing with the other work that you're doing than satisfying my curiosity (it will either get resolved in future updates to articles/game or I can ask you when things settle down).  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Campaign

How should we mark this stuff? Because all of content seems to be jumping back between being marked as EotN and Prophecies at the moment. Would "Beyond" work, or even further separate each section with "War in Kryta," "Hearts of the North," and eventually "Winds of Change?" I just think it's kind of odd that many of the pages don't have a link back to the related content, but instead just a the game it's in. --Mora 05:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Go with Beyond. It's not part of Eye of the North, Prophecies, or whathaveyou's storyline. You need them in order to do Beyond, but the new stuff isn't part of those campaigns. -- Konig/talk 05:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, while Beyond isn't a campaign or expansion, the Bonus Mission Pack isn't either, and it counts as its own bit - despite requiring one of the games as well (like Eye of the North), even if it does get 4 unique areas (then again, we got at least one area unique to Beyond atm, not including special versions of new area). -- Konig/talk 06:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Bonus Mission can be called a (mini-)campaign. And it's areas are completely separated from the rest of the world. But Guild Wars Beyond isn't. - J.P.Talk 10:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

My two cents are here: User:Greener/Sandbox/Locations G R E E N E R 10:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In my book, GWB is an expanding chapter that is separate from the rest of the game. I think it deserves its own page to differentiate it from the rest of the campaigns/expansions (the BMP Id consider an expansion due to it's method of being added to the game. Its a purchase item, and it requires another campaign in order to work.)--Neithan Diniem 12:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In Locations section the separation is ok (as i think it was decided back then). But using GWB in the quest infoboxinfoboxes might be confusing. - J.P.Talk 12:11, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The difference between GW:B and campaigns is GW:B is actually just part of the campaigns. It's part of multiple campaigns, which are not the same for all of GW:B. The BMP is very different from GW:B, since GW:B is nothing more than quest chains. It's not exactly separate from the rest of the game. –~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) ←♥– 12:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see it as it's own campaign, but that doesn't matter in the case of edit warring. Leave it alone until we come to a consensus. --JonTheMon 16:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

What Jon said: let's leave things alone until at least HotN is completed. There are valid arguments supporting at least 3 different points of view (part of existing campaigns, new-yet-free expansion, independent festival-like quest/mish sequence). People seem to have strong feelings about each, but I don't see any consensus.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) "The difference between GW:B and campaigns is GW:B is actually just part of the campaigns." Not really. Yes, it requires the campaign to be owned - so does a lot of things that could be argued to not be part of the campaign (Zinn's Task for one). But it's not part of the campaign's story. It's a post-campaign experience, not part of it, but after the campaign. Not to mention that GW:Beyond is a called a campaign during an old press release when the War in Kryta was fresh. Even Linsey said it during an interview.
I think people are mixing up "campaign" with "continent" - Guild Wars Prophecies is a campaign, Tyria is a continent, the War in Kryta is part of Tyria, but not part of Prophecies. It continues the story of Prophecies, but so does Nightfall and Eye of the North, but those are not in the parts of Tyria that is available through purchasing Prophecies. I think the biggest issue is that Beyond is free, but Prophecies and the rest are not, so it seems to me that some people are thinking this as "is it purchasable? Yes/No - If no, does it need a purchasable content to play? Yes/No - If yes, then it is part of that purchasable content," while other people (myself included) are thinking of it as "is it part of the original release? Yes/No - If no, is it a direct part of the storyline? Yes/No - If no, then it is its own campaign." (to clarify, Beyond is a continuation of the storyline, but not a direct part of it - Sorrow's Furnace and the Titan quests were direct additions to the Prophecies storyline, this is closer to a direct addition to Eye of the North, but isn't restricted to that so not part of it.
IMO, the main thing to consider for this is whether or not it is solely for a specific campaign's story. Beyond overall is not, and Beyond is the "campaign's" name, not War in Kryta. Beyond is a series of related updates that act as free expansions to the previous campaigns and Eye of the North. It is, in my honest opinion, as much of a campaign as Eye of the North is - something that has its own areas while requiring older purchases and even directly uses the older purchases. -- Konig/talk 22:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Erm, I think you concluded that GW:B is closer to an expansion: it's almost exactly analogous to EotN, except that the explorables have the same name as those in Prophecies — relatively compact umbrella quests (currently: TWiK and HotN); new foes/explorables/items; new end-game rewards (O-weaps). I agree.

However, I'm not sure there's a rush to decide: we know that more content is on the way and that should provide enough data to decide how best to categorize.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I did indeed conclude that Beyond is most akin to an expansion (a free expansion, mind you). As to "rushing" - I think the sooner the better, and you are right that as we move on there will be more support for the definite choice. However, the more we wait, the more we'll have to change in the future, which leads to more chances of forgetting to change something that's older. Not only that, but we pretty much have a split where some pages are marked as Beyond in both locations and infobox, some are marked as Beyond in locations and Proph/EN in infobox, and some are marked as Proph/EN in both locations and infobox. It's that inconsistency I'd like to try to be rid of asap. -- Konig/talk 03:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Having to change things later is not the best reason to resolve them today. I dislike inconsistencies as much as the next pedant, but I dislike incorrect or disputed consistency more.

So, while we lack consensus I'm in favor of leaving things as they are... at least until HotN completes. If we want to be sure that we can fix everything later, we can find another way to tag things temporarily, e.g. Category:Disputed categorization, or Category:Undetermined campaign. Things are volatile; they might evolve later (and hence force a retag). And imposing labels without widespread agreement leads to cranky contributors and edit wars. In fact, partly how we got into this conundrum: people classified (nearly) everything WiK as Prophecies quickly — it wasn't a crazy idea, but it might have been hasty.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

As far as categorization goes, It probably does need something separate from the regular campaigns/expansions. Actually, if you take it under the umbrella of expansion, Beyond might be appropriate. I'm still a little hesitant, but it's not bad. I am wondering if there's a better word for it...... --JonTheMon 04:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

As I said in my example, above, categorizing some articles as GWB will lead to trouble. As it stands, someone who only owns Factions will look for information about "Factions" and its expansion under "Winds of Change". Similarly, someone with only Proph will look for information about "Prophecies" and the expansion, "War in Kryta". If we go and group quests/items etc. under "Beyond" or "GWB", then how can one differentiate between what is accessible and what isn't? A parallel would be categorizing things as "Guild Wars". It's too much of an umbrella term to be useful.

Our other option would be to forgo using GWB as a separator, and stack War in Kryta and Winds of Change under Prophecies and Factions, respectively. G R E E N E R 20:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

@Greener: For those looking for information about the specific chapter of GWB, they could look at the page for that specific chapter. IMO, Winds of Change, War in Kryta, etc. would be like categorizing the campaigns/expansions based on the notable splits in the storyline (such as the sections in the storyline articles like Storyline of Prophecies). Also, thus far, everything related to a specific chapter of GWBeyond (i.e., War in Kryta and Hearts of the North related content) have had a category manually added at the bottom to put them in the category of the specific chapter. I am not, however, against using the chapters as a replacement for the regions. Trouble is, that may confuse some people. As such, I am not opposed to your previously linked suggestion (except for calling Hearts of the North as being part of the War in Kryta). The issue you brought up in the notes section of the linked sandbox locations page would be fixed for many via the manually added categories, though I think it would be fairly obvious which chapter of GW:B a particular article relates to. -- Konig/talk 21:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

What if we added a new section to the info boxes, "Event" (http://guildwars.com/events/ingame/). That way, it still has the campaign/region the content is in, but also shows what the content is apart of. --Mora 22:24, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for tossing that Storyline link; I do think GWB can be handled that way when we flesh out this page. And yes, I smacked my head when I realized that tagging the category at the bottom was possible, simple, and likely preferable. As for what to do with Hearts, that was simply my way of putting it on the back burner of my own brain. Could we tag the quest pages etc. with ""G.W. Beyond" instead of just "Beyond"? G R E E N E R 19:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I know they probably already have it more or less setup and just working out details, but I hope the new Canthan content includes a new zone between Maishang Hills and Arborstone or one of its neighboring explorables. I always thought it was a bit unfair that Luxons could access Cavalon right after Boreas Seabed, but Kurzicks had to go back and do Sunjiang District to access their side of the line. Even if the zone is an underground, unmappable zone, just the ability to access both capitals at the same time in the story would be nice. Guildwarsrunner 03:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

There have been free content updates many times in the past. And from the early days. An example is Sorrow's furnace, and update larger than any induvidual update released lately. Backsword 12:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

However, this is the first free series of content updates with a shared plot/intention. Sorrow's Furnace, which included the titan quests in the update, or the DoA update, were merely small areas meant as conclusions to the existing story (and were more than likely made/mostly made/intended when the game was). -- Konig/talk 20:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I've been waiting for this to reach some kind of conclusion before adding the HotN areas to the various WM and Peacekeeper mobs' locations. Someone made pages like Beetletun (Rise), redirecting to the quest, rather an actual location page for Miku, Danthor and maybe a few others, without any discussion that I've seen. Is that how we'll be doing it, then? Manifold 20:29, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The Beetletun (Rise) pointing to a quest seems inconsistent to me. Anyways, updated my current thoughts here. Konig raised some good points earlier, and I hope I've addressed some of them. I may try to test it on Thackeray soon. G R E E N E R 20:51, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Technically, Rise isn't a quest - it's a mission. Even called such by Stumme. There technically wouldn't be an individual area for the spot, unlike with quests which have isolated areas. Then again, I never understood the point of have potentially the same exact information on the quest page and an instance for the quest. TBH, I find pages like The Underworld (Don't Fear the Reapers), or Lion's Arch (Halloween) to be pointless. But that's me. And besides, if we made a fleshed out article for Beetletun (Rise) it would hold the same, but less information than Rise. -- Konig/talk 02:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

CLEAR! *Kachunk!*

Okay folks, we need to get moving on this. We're already falling behind on details (Gwen isn't even listed as being at her own wedding!) I've already added a few example pages to my earlier suggestion, and the content fits in very smoothly. It has already been implemented on Keiran Thackeray and no feathers have been ruffled. All that needs to be done is for someone to add one more campaign variable to the NPC-infobox (and other infoboxes if we wish). I've finished giving Category:Humans a once over, so I have time to do this project now. G R E E N E R 07:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Curious: I've noticed that there are few to no WM or Peacekeeper enemies listed as being within Hearts of the North... -- Konig/talk 02:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Doing the primers for that right now in my sandbox. I just realized I had missed it. G R E E N E R 02:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

There aren't location pages for HotN missions. Manifold 03:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

They exist... as redirects. Which is all they need to be, tbh, otherwise they'll just be copies of the articles of their name. -- Konig/talk 04:11, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

nightfall

i think its safe to assume that there will be a night fall part to this seeing as they have already announced/are doing factions and ph. so making a note of that might be good anyone disagree?- Zesbeer 07:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that is a safe assumption, but I wouldn't add it to the article; I think it's confusing to add purely speculative notes to main articles.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 07:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Twice Stumme said he wanted to go to Cantha and Elona. So it wouldn't be wrong to put such up. There's a blog post and an interview with the "Relics of Orr" podcast which I recall him stating such. -- Konig/talk 08:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's see the quote before we decide. There's a world of difference between "wanting to" and "planning to" (not to mention "planning to" and actually "going to"). Naturally, we should value Stumme's own speculations over fandom's, but that doesn't mean we should necessarily post it in an article on a wiki documenting the game. We don't need to be the first to predict new features; our reputation depends more on accuracy and reliability.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's the blog: "We’ll continue to present you with new and evolving storylines. What has been going on in Cantha or Elona? Our world is a large one that is constantly growing, and there may be some pivotal developments on the horizon. In addition, I’d like to present the players with some interesting opportunities to experience important moments in this world, be they from the past of Guild Wars, or the past-that-is-yet-to-come for Guild Wars 2. We have some very exciting things planned, and I can’t wait to share them with you!" He's far more definitive in the podcast interview.

Here's the podcast (@ about 4:25): "At least for Elona, when we get around for looking there, I think one of the bigger question marks that's been hanging there is that over the course of the events you end up setting Palawa Joko free and everything about the game lore tells us "this is a really bad thing you just did" but it's just kinda left hanging as to what comes out of that and it would be cool if somewhere down the line we could follow up a little bit more on that." -- Konig/talk 23:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree it would be cool if somewhere down the line ANet follows up on that. I agree that Stumme wants to see GWB head to Nightfall areas. Does that put it past speculation and into planned GWB material?  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

why cant the note say something like: john stumme, would like to visit elona at some point and deal with the unresolved palawa joko storyline. that would be stating the facts that we know.- Zesbeer 00:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

It takes it past speculation, but not yet into planned GWB material. I'd say it is in the "intentions" or "wishlist" of GWB. I'd phrase is as "There are intentions to visit Elona and continue Palawa Joko's story in the future, however it is not known if this will happen." or something of the like. -- Konig/talk 00:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I suspect the canthan storyline of GWB next, Miku forms the perfect bridge - i feel something like Mursaat meets (not-your-faction), all vs (your faction) + you? 82.156.22.85 10:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

We have already seen a part of it during halloween when you fight palawa joko's army during a quest, and i have a feeling if there is gonna be an arc in nightfall it will be based upon that.Damysticreaper 12:30, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the halloween stuff. Didn't they also say to expect further developments on the Mad King Thorn story? --Musha 14:00, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I think that was said to not be related to Beyond stuff. So I don't think it counts as Beyond, personally. -- Konig/talk 21:30, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Then why is it listed on this page? --Musha 20:52, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Not "related to Beyond stuff" means that it's not related to main storylines of Beyond, not that it isn't something that will continue the story. -- Konig/talk 21:27, 22 February 2011 (UTC)