Talk:Keiran Thackeray/A2

Keiren's Sniper Shot

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Am I the only one who sees this skill? Its specically used by the Lt. and its animation is the same as Ebon Sniper Support. He uses it the Krytan territories when he's "found" as an ally. Spirit 3ater 00:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Remove Collector Infor

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Can we remove the collector info seeing as it is duplicated with greater detail over here? All of these new updates are making the wiki incredibly messy and difficult to navigate. 58.106.43.167 09:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure, as long as you link this page to that one. Lt. Thackeray plays a role in that scavenger hunt, so it needs to be documented in some manner on his page. --Musha 18:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Why did you re-add it? It was linked on this page, and still is. Now it's on both pages and it doesn't need to be. 114.78.35.145 14:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Probably because this is about the collector (about 90% of the event, but nonetheless part of the event) and the other page was about the event.--Markisbeest 15:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

This page isn't about a collector, this page is about an important NPC in the game. The collector information doesn't belong here, it serves no purpose here that isn't served better on the other page. 58.106.158.34 17:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this page is about the NPC, and this NPC just so happens to act as a collector given certain conditions. --Musha 13:01, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

WiK quotes

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think some are from his special skill. Try to speerate those out. Skill quotes on skill page. Backsword 21:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I actually never saw him say anything while he was using Keiran's Sniper Shot. --Musha 22:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

i saw him use one or two of the sniper support quotes, didnt pay that much attention to everything they say in battle thoughSpark-TBa 14:41, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Gold?

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I really don't see it. — Why 22:38, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Mentioned this ages ago before it got archived, i still see no gold on his armor--Lord randy taylor 16:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Same. I just ignored the gold comment because it wasn't an issue I wanted to push. Now that someone else has I chimed in. Maybe it was an observation made in orange lightning? 58.106.158.34 09:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not gold "gold," but if you compare his armor to a regular Ebon Vanguard soldier, you will see a difference. The metal parts of his armor have a gold hue to it, while the standard Ebon Vanguard armor is the silver/gray color of regular steel. --Musha 13:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Thackeray's Location

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After Thackeray arrives in Lions Arch his location becomes random? is that correct? He's supposed to be training troops, in Shinning Blade camp i would think. (Jaxx Hammer)

Spoiler Tag

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Isn't every character's bio and article a spoiler to some part of the campaign? In fact, isn't almost every article on this wiki a spoiler in some way? Why do we have spoiler tags for things like this? It's normal for the wiki to document the events of the game. Can we remove the spoiler tags from these pages? It's absurd. 114.78.8.119 08:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the tag started out to point out the "biggest of the biggest spoilers" and now is just used for the "important and/or big spoilers" - essentially yes, every article is a spoiler. But then again, there are articles which are real spoilers then there are the not so real spoilers. Either way, if we're to discuss spoilers in general, this isn't the place as it should be taken to the community portal. -- Konig/talk 05:44, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Parcel Icon

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someone messed with the paper wrapped spoiler icon, I'd fix it, but I have no idea how -173.150.98.181 05:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Post War In Kryta

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Post war, (seemed to take a while for the group to show up) discussion at the EotN Hall of Monuments by Captain Greywind, Koro Sagewind, Dian Fermati, Nola Sheppard telling Gwen that Thackery is missing and Langmar dead. Gwen sends Dian to Gunnar's Hold to enlist the Norn for help in search for Thackery. I wasn't sure where to add this...;) Roybe 19:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Until the "storyline" of this little arch is complete, nothing should be added to his page directly, as it would be in a constant state of change. For now, it's good enough that it is covered here. --- Ness Hrin | 20:14, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to be sure it got covered. Thanks! Roybe 17:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Trivia

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How do we know he marries Gwen? All we know is he has descendants in GW2. --Humble Goshly 08:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The source is linked and specifically says they are destined to marry. Misery 09:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Destined to marry, then to go on 'break', then work it out. ^_^ 203.109.208.251 10:58, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Wedding/Cantha

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So who votes that they have Thackeray crawl back to The Eye and then do some big wedding thing? And who votes that they try and keep it going longer by having him be "shang hi-ed" into Cantha for the Factions version of WiK (which they have confirmed [here])? Zanter dexder 11:37, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Wintersday?

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So, with Thackeray still wandering around in the wild, is he going to mysteriously reappear for wintersday this year in the EOTN and then disappear again after the festival ends? Or should any possible new content bring him back in time to lead the party? I'm hoping the latter! --Priest Tully 22:27, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The game is more or less "stuck in time" with the exception of quests affecting explorables. It is possible that they remove Thackeray, but I doubt it. More than likely, his story will be finished before Wintersday anyways. -- Konig/talk 01:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, time is non-linear in various areas of the game. For example, Langmar's dead but that does not seem to prevent her from hanging out in Charr Territory. Same for other NPC that die over the course of Factions & Nightfall campaigns. :P Jaxom 05:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Wintersday is less than 2 months away, so I'm hoping they manage to finish his story before that time. I wished we had some more info on that. We'll just have to wait and see I spose. --Priest Tully 15:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe they'll finally give him a respectable hairstyle as well. That topknot is just ridiculous - they only look appropriate in feudal Japan, which this is not. --Nathe 14:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Keiran's content from Wintersday is being broken off from the festival, and no longer Wintersday specific. That way people that didn't do it previously or are late to the party can do it as a natural part of the story progression, rather than having his introduction be tied to something that only happens once a year. (It's also weird if he's introduced each year...) As for the other points raised, well, you'll see soon enough. At least one person here will be happy! XP John Stumme 20:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The one who wants a new hairstyle? 24.197.253.243 21:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Clearly! Keiran should have a bouffant, a la Ash Crimson. 22:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC) John Stumme 22:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

John, you have way too much fun teasing us! :D --Musha 09:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It's true, I do. XD But when I was on the other side of the fence, I used to love getting any bits and pieces that I could to speculate over. That was half of the fun for me, especially when it got other people into discussions of what would, or could be going to happen and why. So I try to give back as I can to the people that might feel the same way. John Stumme 00:11, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I think this may have something to do with the (spoiler!?) hint found at the end of the interview here [1]. Looking forward to it! Daine 05:49, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) So in other news, am I the only one who thinks it's a little odd that you can get him to spawn as a random ally in Kryta while you're halfway through the quest line to find him again? Or do we get the shortcut to all the rewards if this occurs? I lol'd. ;) -- Elv 14:48, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

dont lose the tail

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i would like thackery to keep his ponytail, its a part of what makes him who he is, i say keep the ponytail even if gwen doesnt like it, whos with me Spark-TBa 14:44, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, plus he looks hawter with the tail. xD --Find And Seek 03:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

It better not come back. Topknots only look appropriate in feudal Japan, and as he's not a samurai, it doesn't belong on him. --Nathe 15:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

2nd profession

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Why do people think he's a secondary Paragon? He has no Paragon skills? Saying Shiro is an Assassin but doesn't use Assassin skills, meaning Thackeray could be a Paragon because of his skills is not a valid argument as Shiro drops Elite Assassin tomes. There's nothing pointing towards Thackeray being a Paragon. "Then why does he use those skills?" Because they fit in the story. If you don't understand that read the dialogues. Waar Kijk Je Naar 19:27, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

It comes down to a preference in what we document. Mechanically he's a Ranger, while the lore gives him the appearance of having a Paragon secondary. G R E E N E R 19:31, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

He is as much of a paragon as Zho is a dervish in EotN. Koda Kumi 19:51, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

His disguise includes two skills that have the same icon and similar functionality to paragon skills. That's about as compelling as we're going to get without one of the developers showing us the database. (Typically, in the game mechanics, a toon cannot use skills from more than 2 profs; even Graven Monoliths alter their prof using a skill before they can start using skills from a third prof.)

Now, should Lt Thack's secondary be determined based on the disguise? Maybe he's like the players, changing secondary as the need arises.

I support leaving the secondary blank, but I also can see the argument for calling him /.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

IMO, one of the reasons for this story arch was to change Thackeray's primary profession from ranger to paragon (and so John's comment about how the new hero won't be a ranger or an assassin would make sense - the new hero would be Thackeray, a paragon). We may wait until the wedding to know what exactly to assign as his profession. Erasculio 20:47, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

As I said here, it is clear that Thackeray is supposed to be a secondary paragon. How people are missing this is completely beyond me. --Santax (talk · contribs) 21:52, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a line between "supposed to be" and "is"; documentation only falls on the "is" side. — Raine Valen 0:09, 22 Nov 2010 (UTC)

"In short, the actual game creature's secondary profession is ambiguous, but in terms of lore Thackeray is definitely a specialist ranger with experience as a paragon. --Santax (talk · contribs) 17:38, 21 November 2010 (UTC)" The actual game creature's profession is what counts, not lore. -- pling 00:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

So why does the wiki consider Dhuum a Dervish, if he isn't one? He carries a scythe, wears Dervish robes and does the Dervish dance, but he doesn't use Dervish skills and as far as I can see doesn't drop Dervish tomes, so there's no evidence of him being an in-game Dervish? This is creating an issue where there shouldn't be one, Thackeray's skills clearly indicate he is canonically a secondary Paragon. Is Burian not a Monk because we never see him as one in-game? --Santax (talk · contribs) 00:30, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Dhuum is not a dervish unless he (a) uses Dervish skills, (b) drops Dervish tomes, or (c) shows evidence of benefiting from Mysticism. If Dhuum is documented as a Dervish in the absence of one or more of these things, said documentation is incorrect and misleading.

Similarly, Thackeray (a) does not use Paragon skills, (b) does not drop Paragon tomes, and (c) does not benefit from Leadership. Hence, there is zero evidence of him being a paragon. — Raine Valen 0:37, 22 Nov 2010 (UTC)

Feedback_talk:Joe_Kimmes/Archive_December_2009#Who_is_Dhuum.3F, that's why Dhuum is marked as a dervish. --Mora 00:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) He wouldn't benefit from Leadership anyway because he's not a primary Paragon, and obviously he won't drop Paragon tomes. However he uses versions of "Find Their Weakness!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!", whether technically Paragon or not those skills are imitation Paragon skills, and with all the talk of Keiran developing leadership abilities they are clearly meant to imply he is a secondary Paragon. To claim there is "zero evidence" of such a thing just seems obstinate. And this wiki is known to document things as they should be rather than as they are - as shown by the whole argument over whether we consider War in Kryta areas separate to their normal counterparts - most of them are technically the same explorable areas, just with modified spawns, but we consider them separate areas on the wiki. --Santax (talk · contribs) 00:49, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

An Ranger skill is not a Paragon skill, even if the Ranger skill has a Paragon-colored icon and a Paragon-esque effect.

As has been stated someplace, if someone having leadership abilities means that they are a Paragon, then we should probably start by marking Salma as a / (please don't actually do that).

It may be implied that he is a secondary paragon, but we have no way of determining that based on anything in the game presently.

Some of the WiK areas are, indeed, different instances than their Prophecies counterparts; because of this, it was found easier to treat WiK as a separate campaign for the purposes of effective documentation (read: there is a benefit to documenting it this way). There is not a benefit to documenting Kerian as a R/P (any more so than documenting Dwayna as a monk), as far as I can see. — Raine Valen 0:58, 22 Nov 2010 (UTC)

Then why are we saying some of the henchmen have secondaries? Take a look, this henchman clearly has Attacker's Insight, a dervish skill, and therefore she is listed as a R/D. This ally has Intimidating Aura, a dervish skill, so she is documented as an A/D. Now, Keiran has "Find Their Weakness!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!", both paragon skills. What is the point of not listing him as a paragon when he clearly uses paragon skills? (he uses personalized versions because that is easier to program). You are not making any sense. Koda Kumi 17:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Zho and Alari use Dervish skills. Not Ranger-or-Assassin-skills-that-are-similar-to-Dervish-skills, but straight-up, bona fide Dervish skills. Because both of them have more than 0 Dervish skills, they are secondary Dervishes, so there is a reason to document them as such.

Kerian does not use Paragon skills; all eight of his skills are Ranger skills. Two of them are similar to Paragon skills, but they are still Ranger skills. Because Kerian has 8 Ranger skills and 0 Paragon skills, there is no reason to call him a secondary Paragon.

There is a big difference. — Raine Valen 22:20, 22 Nov 2010 (UTC)

Keiran's versions of TNtF! and FTW! are affected by expertise, which means that they are ranger skills mechanically. This means that he doesn't need a paragon secondary, which means that his secondary can be anything, assuming he has a secondary profession. --Riddle 22:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

That figures. Koda Kumi 23:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmmn. Expertise normally shouldn't affect shouts. Could it be possible that his versions are still Paragon skills with lesser energy requirements than the normal versions? Although either way Although this puts a dent on the / theory, I don't see any urgency in trying to resolve this. I expect that we will see more clues to his profession emerge. (If not in-game, then after one of the developers mentions something in an interview or post.)  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Technically, wouldn't all of his HotN skills be considered Monster skills that are affected by Expertise, and not Ranger or Paragon skills? -- Konig/talk 03:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd say no as Expertise doesn't affect monster skills, right? Also I'd say it's about time to do a reset indent :P Waar Kijk Je Naar 11:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Summary

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(Reset indent) Here is a tl;dr summary of the arguments so far:

• /
  • In disguise, he uses two skills that have identical icons & near- identical names to Paragon skills; they also have near-identical effects.
  • These skills are shouts, which Rangers do not otherwise use outside of pet-related skills in Beast Mastery.
  • This wiki always documents secondary professions using circumstantial/indirect evidence (Peacekeepers, other NPC allies, ...).
• /--
  • Expertise only affects secondary attack skills, binding rituals, and touch skills. Since these shouts are used at reduced energy costs, they cannot be ranger skills.
  • Lore and dialogues should not be used to determine secondaries, only actual skill use.
  • We should only document based on actual evidence (even if indirect); it's not relevant what profession a toon should have.
  • The disguise is a ... disguise. It might not reflect the skills actually used by the NPC himself.
• / or /--
  • Do we have to decide now? Maybe we can wait to see additional evidence (as HotN progresses).

My apologies if I missed anything; I'll try to keep it up-to-date.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 11:47, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Waar: Expertise affects all normal (non-shout, non-spell etc.) skills, regardless of profession, but also affects all Ranger skills regardless of type (including shouts). So either the description is wrong and it's not a shout, or it's actually a Ranger skill. My guess is that it was made a Ranger skill so that it is affected by Expertise (thus making the build easier to use), and as I have said above, there are numerous dialogues (not to mention that the skills are simply modified Paragon skills) to suggest that Keiran is secondary Paragon. And as far as the average player is concerned he is a secondary Paragon - they didn't add all the quest dialogue about how he has learned to be a leader for no reason, and if they had wanted to use "proper" Ranger skills, they would have used new ones, like they did with every other skill on his bar. And Tennessee: The names are actually completely identical, as well as the icons and the effect of "Find Their Weakness!". The main difference is the interaction with Expertise. --Santax (talk · contribs) 15:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Discussion continues

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Mhmh I read those dialogues too but I interpreted it in another way. Too bad my English isn't good enough for me to explain this. It's kinda like the skills are only there for the sake of the dialogue (to make it feel more real in some way). I don't really know how to say this :P Waar Kijk Je Naar 16:49, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

"Since these shouts are used at reduced energy costs, they cannot be ranger skills." That's actually a misstatement. The shouts are ranger skills because they are affected by expertise, thus used at a low cost. --Riddle 18:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

"

• /
  • In disguise, he uses two skills that have identical icons & near- identical names to Paragon skills; they also have near-identical effects.
  • These skills are shouts, which Rangers do not otherwise use outside of pet-related skills in Beast Mastery.
  • This wiki always documents secondary professions using circumstantial/indirect evidence (Peacekeepers, other NPC allies, ...).

"

<--THIS the missions make it abundantly clear that he is changing/ becoming a paragon. this page should reflect this other wise it is just retardation imho. its also very clear that the skills he uses are paragon skills.- Zesbeer 04:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

"its also very clear that the skills he uses are paragon skills." It is in no way clear that the skills are paragon skills. They look like paragon skills, alright. They function like ranger skills. If they were linked to a paragon attribute or something I'd agree with you. At the moment your "circumstantial/indirect evidence" points bothways, and in my opinion even favors the ranger explanation. — Why 04:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

"It is in no way clear that the skills are paragon skills." You mean except for the name, icon, skill type, and function (what they do not them being affected by expertise)? Technically these are "unique NPC skills designed to replicate modified paragon skills but are affected by expertise" not "ranger skills made to look like paragon skills" or "paragon skills made to function like ranger skills" - that is, mechanically. But mechanically, all of his 6 other skills are also "unqiue NPC skills affected by expertise." I think it's pointless to debate amongst ourselves - a developer must explain. Unless the answer comes in the second half of Hearts of the North (appearing as an NPC ally as a R/P). -- Konig/talk 05:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Look. It's really simple. Are the skills touch skills? No. Are they traps? No. Attack skills? No. Rituals? No. Affected by expertise? Yes. That leaves one option. — Raine Valen 5:50, 27 Nov 2010 (UTC)

are they shouts yes, do they function exactly like paragon skills yes, do they have the same skill icon as paragon skills yes, do they have the exact same name as paragon skills yes. do i agree with konig yes will he show up as a paragon making all of you eat your words i am rather sure he will, seeing as the hole quest chain is hinting at that.- Zesbeer 05:54, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

THEN he will be a paragon. NOW he is not. \o/ — Raine Valen 5:55, 27 Nov 2010 (UTC)

EXCEPT FOR HE IS. And ignorance is keeping you from seeing what is right in fount of you, and that is he is a paragon now.- Zesbeer 05:58, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

My view on this is, they wanted Thackeray to have two overpowered versions of two paragon skills. Instead of making a new ranger-themed skill icon, they kept the paragon icon as a reference to the original skills. So basically, a monster skill, which was made a ranger skill to make it overpowered with Expertise, with a paragon-themed skill icon.–alistic 06:12, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

"are they shouts yes, do they function exactly like paragon skills yes, [...]"

Both points do not neccessarily imply that these skills are paragon skills. Shouts aren't exclusive to paragons, there are shouts among ranger skills (and warrior skills), too. For example, see Otyugh's Cry or Symbiotic Bond. Also they do not function exactly like paragon skills, because they are affected by Expertise, which the similar paragon skills are not. Yes, they look like paragon skills (icons and names), but that alone does not turn them into paragon skills. It's basically like Raine said earlier: skills affected by Expertise are either attacks, rituals, touch skills or rangers skills. Seeing that these skills are not among the first three possibilities leaves only one valid option. That's why they are ranger skills. It's as simple as that. --Amakiir 06:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Take a collective breath, guys. It's all semantics either way, paragon-themed ranger skills or paragon skills affected by expertise. Everyone realizes the facts currently available, and I don't think anyone's interested in budging their opinions, so rather than have yelling matches, just ask the guy who made it. Until then consider the discussion closed. - Tanetris 06:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, have fun pursing that pointless question, then. Ryuu - Matters. ≡ 06:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Settled, then - as of today, he's definitely a paragon. 217.137.184.28 23:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

i would just like to point out how haters have to hate and how i CALLED THIS victory feels so good.- Zesbeer 00:17, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Paragons use spears not bows. Ramei Arashi 06:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) As mentioned in my previous edit above, the paragon skills were used to show his transition from a primary ranger to a primary paragon. Saying he's a secondary paragon is wrong; we need to document that his profession changes. Erasculio 13:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

And said documentation would be easiest done through a merge with the redundant page. -- Konig/talk 13:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)