User:Dan Dan Teddy Bearz/Archive1

Fr srs?

Please, anybody, everybody. If you're going to argue with me about anything unrelated to the subject matter of any page, post here. Don't nerdraeg all over a page that is meant to be informative or otherwise constructive. If you just want to call me stupid, I can take it. Just do so here. Not there. Here. No, I said here. Thank you.

u mad bro? -Cursed Angel 20:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

sup bro i get that you think you're pretty cool, but you're just as much of a nerd as rogueonion for coming on gww so lol also your BHA build is bad mostly because it uses BHA 184.154.106.26 20:44, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course, shutting down a boss who normally does 200 to 300 damage per spell is bad. Yup, BHA sucks compared to Barrage because that 60 AoE damage is way better. Our monks better have full radiant and attunements! Koda Kumi 20:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

exactly! however, why run a single target daze when you can run technobabble? --184.154.106.26 20:53, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

also, are you like ten years old or something? --184.154.106.26 20:55, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Read what Technobabble does, then come back. Koda Kumi 20:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

read the second note, then come back.--184.154.106.26 20:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Hey chill, man, u talkin all mad bout dis game! -Cursed Angel 21:08, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

1) IPtard, I never called him a nerd. (Edit: Nerdraeging is exclusive to being a nerd. Nerdraeging is simply throwing a tantrum like a child because someone disagrees with you.) Again, Lrn2read. 2) IPtard, again. Now who's "the one" arguing? See what I did thar? 3) Single-target daze is better than no daze. 4) Heroes can't use PvE-only skills. 5) Technobabble does not work on bosses. BHA does. 6) Yes, Angel, I'm mad. Very mad. So mad, in fact, that I'm overjoyed. Yes, I am overjoyed. I SAID I'M OVERJOYED, DAMNIT! 7) I like the number seven. Teddy Dan, yo. 21:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

lol. 1) you said he was nerdraeging. this is pretty much calling him a nerd. your dumb tantrum definition of it is called a tantrum. 2) i'm not the IP from the other talk page. 3) death is better than daze. 4) there are still better options. (thunderclap, etc.) 5) read the second note. --184.154.106.26 21:45, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Learn the social definition of Nerdraeg. Don't come back until you do. Death would be better than daze if you could inflict death. Unfortunately, you didn't bring any daze and now the two enemy monks are wiping the floor with you because you didn't bring BHA and whenever you try to attack one the other heals it because neither of them are dazed. GG. If you want to argue this, bring something to the discussion that requires a little more thought than "BHA suxxorz cuz BHA suxxorz." Something like evidence to support your claims. Numbers would be good. Links with factual explanations would be better. Thanks for playing. (I apologize to the editors for the successive edits. I just never catch these things in the preview.) Teddy Dan, yo. 21:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

lol. obviously you're not worth bothering with. i will however suggest you go back to preschool and maybe learn how to play guild wars while you're at it.--184.154.106.26 22:17, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

You have nothing either relevant or intelligent to add tot he discussion, so you resort to insults that have as little to do with anything related to Guild Wars as your first comment. We call that trolling. It's a no-no. Welcome to Pre-school. Teddy Dan, yo. 22:22, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

actually, what you've been doing on the winds of change talk, and here, is trolling. bad trolling, too. i did not insult you, i merely stated that you do not know how to play, because you think BHA is good, and assassin heroes are good. --184.154.106.26 22:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to read about how you came to this conclusion. What have I posted was irrelevant? Still, you've yet to offer any evidence disproving my claim that both BHA and Assassins are good. If you can't prove me wrong, and you insist on arguing with me about it, you have nothing to offer. If you have nothing to offer but continue to argue, that is trolling. Arguing purely for the sake of arguing, or to boost one's fragile ego. Provide for me facts to disprove my opinions or admit you have nothing to offer to this discussion. If you're mentally incapable of doing either, get off my page. ^_^ Teddy Dan, yo. 22:49, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

here's a fact for you: no player with half a brain uses assassin heroes. they're generally shit, tbh, which is why no good team builds use them. BHA was maybe good when factions came out, but rangers have much better options now.

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. If it were fact, there would be players with only half of their brain. That is currently an impossible feat for modern medicine. What are these better options you propose? I've already shot down Technobabble. What's next? "Iz not gud" is not a valid reason. Teddy Dan, yo. 23:01, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

very funny.

I fail to see how you can't bring technobabble on yourself or another player. if you want daze so badly, bring it yourself and use technobabble, don't waste a hero slot on it. --184.154.106.26 23:05, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, look at the daze duration of Technobabble and that of Broad Head Arrow. Don't waste a skill slot on a maximum daze duration of five seconds. Five seconds won't kill anything worth using Technobabble on. Anything else? Teddy Dan, yo. 23:12, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

if it takes you up to 17 seconds to kill anything, you're bad. probably because you have an assassin hero with BHA instead of a hero that can kill things. if your bad healers can't deal with the extra damage because your daze doesn't last forever, you're bad. like I said earlier, if you can't work out that BHA is fucking terrible, you're a waste of time.--184.154.106.26 23:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

If you kill something in five seconds, it isn't because of Technobabble. At 12, where a CritBow's Marksmanship should be, BHA lasts for 17 seconds. It has a recharge/cooldown of 15 seconds. Technobabble has a maximum duration of five seconds and a recharge/cooldown of ten seconds. You can wait five seconds for Technobabble to recharge while your Monk boss heals not only itself but everything around it, or your Elementalist boss pummels you with spikes, or your Dervish boss heals itself, or your Mesmer boss continues to interrupt your healers, or your Necro boss summons twelve more minions. Or you can take BHA and kill them all before its duration ends. If you can't work out that your opinion holds no base in fact, you don't belong here. I'd suggest you keep trying, in the hopes that you may learn something from all of this, but I honestly just want you off my page at this point. I don't want to start QQing about harassment. I've been pretty mellow, thus far. I've been far less insulting than some, certainly. Far less profane, as well. I don't think it's too much to ask for you to offer a valid argument or leave. Can you truly do neither? You haven't proven me wrong, even once. You haven't yet ruffled my feathers enough to feed any other troll, and there are no signs of progress in that direction. Any other troll would cut its losses and find a new target. Why do you persist? I'm happily engaged, so I apologize if you're as interested as you seem. I'm hoping that isn't the case. Teddy Dan, yo. 23:45, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

17s is nice if the boss has Natural Resistance (OMG THEY'RE BARBARIANS!) --JonTheMon 13:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Especially if you have a "Silencing" bow.

Good mods for a CritBow would be a Silencing Bow String, a Bow Grip of Enchanting and the "I have the power!" inscription as previously mentioned. 17 second daze duration for BHA, at 12 Marksmanship, times the +33% daze duration of a Silencing Bow String mod equals +5ish. 17x33%=5.6. We'll round it down to 5. 17+5=22. 22s vs non-boss creatures at 12 Marksmanship. 1/2 of 22=11. 11s vs bosses at 12 Marksmanship, with a recharge/cooldown of 15s. Of course, we still have yet to consider attack speed buffs. That 15s recharge/cooldown might actually be 12s, depending on your buff. For the sake of factual argument, though, we'll stick with 15s since I don't know the precise math for attack speed hastes. 11/15 is better than 5/10 (for anyone who disagrees, do the math). A Critbow with the previously mentioned bow can inflict the "Dazed" condition for over twice as long as Technobabble, as well as continue to interrupt its target through the use of Disrupting Accuracy (should the "Dazed" condition be removed or its duration end before BHA can be reapplied). 17s daze is indeed very nice. Even 11s daze is decent. 5s daze is simply a waste. It may as well be a KD. BHA, ftw. Teddy Dan, yo. 19:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Yet it still fails because you chose to daze a target in pve rather than just kill it, there are so few instances in this game where Shutdown>tank+nuke that it is quite bad. Even in those instances there are better alternatives (mesmer anyone?). This is all pve talk ofc, in pvp this skill is pure gold the moment you manage to hi.... Oh shit, nvmnd. On the other hand i am not going to argue with you about you liking the skill. I can only state that anything bha can do can either be done better by other skills, or is just not needed 79.203.109.183 00:28, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Name these skills. Also, you seem to have forgotten the definition of "tank". Tanks are not DPS. Tank vs dual/triple enemy healer (such as those seen in WiK)= you just got spanked. Nuker vs dual/triple enemy monks (ditto)= same. GG. BHA in PvP is easy with one simple shadow-step or other movement speed buff, which you should be bringing to PvP anyway. If you don't know how to use BHA, that doesn't mean it sucks. It just means you suck at using BHA. As for Mesmers, none of their skills inflict the dazed condition for longer than BHA and most of them are single-skill interrupts. Teddy Dan, yo. 06:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Stunning strike is about ten times better than BHA in PvE for a number of reasons, and BHA isn't used in PvP at all. -Auron 09:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

List these reasons. I use BHA in AB often. My ranger uses a run(like Zojun's Hate or Dodge)+BHA+Epidemic combo on the shrines. It's certainly worked well enough for speedy capping in my matches. Perhaps not as well as a good PBAoE spike, but certainly not poorly enough to be discounted entirely. Stunning Strike requires 10 adrenaline to perform and requires it be used on a foe already suffering from a condition for it to daze. BHA does not. Stunning Strike does add bonus damage to its attack, but it simply requires too much for its use. Teddy Dan, yo. 10:11, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Is this shit still going on? Koda Kumi 11:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

No. Morphy 15:09, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

1) Paragons as a class have far more utility than rangers, and unlimited energy to use on utility. 2) Paragon non-elites are far more powerful than ranger non-elites. 3) Paragons wanding with spears do far more damage than rangers. 4) Stunning Strike has no recharge. 5) Dark Fury. 6) 90 armor. 7) Shield.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified - anything below tombs isn't high-enough level PvP to weigh the merits of certain skills. You could go into AB with 8 fire magic skills and still win - that doesn't make the fire magic skills good, it just means the arena is easy and the opponents are awful. For AB in particular, IA is a much stronger elite than BHA - poison and burning on 3 targets is enough to solo most shrines quicker than simply daze, and it frees up your secondary so you can take skills that don't suck. -Auron 17:03, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I never said tanks were DPS, also I said tank+nuke, not tank or nuke. I tend to not solo pve missions/quests (certainly not WiK). So again, I can have a team with a tank who is being healed (team without monk is GG unless you are running some gimmick) while the rest of the team nukes. Please tell me how sacrficing dmg for a character who can only cause 1 single target to be dazed (pve usually has more than one thing attacking you) is faster than to just kill it. Killing fast>shutdown. Then to your comment about mesmers, I, again, never said mesmers could inflict a longer daze, I said they were better at shutdown, which quite frankly they are. With skills like frustration you can keep powerfull bosses in tome while still being able to have it affect the whole mob. Mesmer skills are not affected by trajectory, don't have a miss chance which BHA really does have unless you are standing next to the boss you daze, in that case go skullcrack warrior), are not affected by blind and can actually still deal a fair ammount of AI dmg (ranger bow damage is pathetic, especially when you just gave up your elite for BHA). As to your part on pvp, AB=/=PvP. Furthermore, if you bring a shadowstep, a IMS, BHA and probably a healing skill and a condition removal so that you don't get pwned the moment you start attacking yourself, well grtz, you then have 5 skills on your bar that do nothing but keep you alive and make sure that you can inflict daze on a single target. You can't even kill your target, and don't give me "my team can kill him now" because there is no teamwork in AB. On top of ALL that, you are only usefull vs casters, last time I played AB the biggest problems were dervs and sins just doing a shitton of dmg. Oh, also, why daze your target in low-low-low end PvP when killing it is just so much easier and effective? 79.203.109.183 11:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Why waste two hero slots for the price of one? Typically, when one thing can perform the job of two, it's better. You, as the player, simply need to be the damage-dealer while the CritBow interrupts, the monk heals and the rest of the party is free to be whatever you may need it to be for the sake of any bonus requirements needed for the quest/mission (like required heroes such as Master of Whispers, General Morgahn, Margrid the Sly, just to name those in NF). Otherwise, you have to break up your oh so precious tank+nuke couple and gimp your party because you don't know how to kill anything without them. Concerning said quests/missions, you need to know how to maintain an effective two-hero team capable of performing the task regardless of the requirements.

Flexibility is key. Sticking to a mold is bad, as Anet likes to nerf those molds that work. You need to know how to use all skills effectively. If you cannot do that, it is not the fault of the skill. There are skills that are more effective than others, as Anet themselves have admitted, but I've been asking for those you feel are better than BHA specifically. You've named one and I'll be discussing the other below. (after this next paragraph)

As for your "killing fast>shutdown argument", the mesmers just shutdown your healer and now the melee is dancing on your corpses because you tried to simply kill everything without any strategy or preparation at all. You may have killed a mesmer or two but, in the process, enemy melee swarmed your healer(s) and killed it(/them). This lead to the rest of your party getting wiped because you just weren't putting out enough damage to compete with their healers who are still alive because the melee took out your nuker while you were too busy trying to kill the mesmer so your healer could heal. It's a vicious cycle. As for Frustration, 50% slower spell casting=/=daze. Reverse Hex has a cast time of 1/4s. 50% of that would be 1/8. 1/4+1/8=3/8. Correct my math if it's wrong, because I'm not confident about it. To be safe, though, I'll round it up to 4/8, or 1/2. 1/2 cast time is still pretty quick. A CritBow with Disrupting Accuracy doesn't rely on hexes or conditions to interrupt, and as such has no fear of hex/condition removal. However, this discussion seems to have pinpointed on BHA, so I'll leave that point there and get back on track.

Fragility is but one skill. My Ranger usually brings BHA and Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support. Those two skills alone usually shut down any caster before BHA's duration ends. Mesmer interrupts are not the daze condition. They are single-interrupt skills. They may interrupt more than one foe, but only once per cast. That's the beauty of the daze condition. Even melee without interrupts can interrupt a dazed foe.

AB=PvP. Players compete against other players within it. If you were to define PvP based on one specific arena, I could do the very same by that logic and claim HA,GvG,Codex,RA,etc=/=PvP simply because it isn't AB. Twisting a definition to suit your petty elitism does not change the definition. Facts are facts, whether you like all that is associated with them or not. If you can find an article on this site that has been evaluated and claims Alliance Battles are specifically excluded from the Player versus Player environment, I'll concede that point. Otherwise, elitist fail is elitist fail.

Shutting down a caster places you one step away from killing them. What are they going to do if they can't cast? They aren't going to heal themselves, that's for sure. Are you forgetting Point Blank Shot/Zojun's Shot? Both of those, because of their high damage bonuses at 12+ Expertise, are comparable to single attack skills of your average Warrior. Of course, that is a bit of an exaggeration. Nonetheless, they're enough to cap shrines. Which is what AB is about. Capping. If you're wasting your time actually fighting with the other players in AB, you're doing it wrong. So, now that we've established that capping is good and fighting with players is bad in AB, what are the majority of the mobs at the shrines? Casters. There are a few shrines with Warriors or Rangers, but you can simply ignore BHA for them. As a Ranger, at 16 Expertise (if you'd be so daring), Expert focus adds +11 damage to each bow attack skill. At that same level of Expertise, Point Blank Shot deals +42 damage. 42+11=53. This is the "comparable" damage I was talking about. Or, you can ditch all of that and simply bring Poison Tip Signet and Hunter's Shot. Daze the caster, apply PTS, fire HS. They drop at a decent rate with those and maybe some normal attacks. As for melee, Throw Dirt.

I will admit, however, that dervishes and assassins are(/were) OP in PvP. Shadow-Stepping PBAoEs, too. At no point am I claiming BHA is the #1 absolute best skill in the game (I actually happen to like Unyielding Aura, Never Rampage Alone, Signet of Spirits and I Am The Strongest all more so than BHA). That would be ignorant. Of course, so is implying it's the worst. [/novel-size "wtf, dude you talk too much" walls of text] Teddy Dan, yo. 16:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

At first, I thought you just had a more casual playing style than the usual folks hanging around here. But now you are showing plain ignorance. In an environment where people know far more than you do, that turns you into a laughing stock very quickly.

People do not take skills to shutdown NPCs in AB because the NPCs suck. To a 4-man party, they pose no threat at all. The most you need is d-shot for eles and monks. Devoting your elite slot to shutting down 1 of the 3 NPCs at a shrine is a waste of a skill slot, which you could have used to deal with far larger threats, like cripshot does.

The reason people say AB is not PvP is because most of the time you are not fighting players. It is casual PvP at best. Anet has never balanced anything for AB and never will because of the low requirement to succeed at it. You can enter with Frenzy, Mending, and no cancel stance on your bar, and still win. Try that in any form of organized PvP and you will get laughed at, killed, and teabagged, much like if you take BHA. When people take condition removal (Life Sheath has a 1/2s CT while dazed, good luck interrupting that by autoattacking), the skill is not that great.

My advice is this: If you want to brag about your self-made hero builds and want to convince people BHA is the best skill ever, take it to Guru or something like that. You are guaranteed to run into people who will believe you. On GWW, people actually know what they are talking about (well, most of them do), and if you start saying things like using Throw Dirt in any form of PvP, people stop taking you seriously. Koda Kumi 17:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

1) Lrn2read. I've already said BHA isn't the best skill ever. I said it pretty clearly, too. Ignorance is an unwillingness to learn. I've shown no such intent. I've said, multiple times, to prove me wrong. That's clearly an invitation to educate. Who are the ones who seem incapable of providing anything beyond "people don't do that" or "this sucks"? There is not a shred of support in either of those claims. In an environment when "people" know far more than you do, it does indeed make you a laughing stock. I'm laughing. At you. Claiming to know something but failing to provide (and I quote) "evidence to support" it, renders that alleged knowledge invalid. The argument was whether BHA was more effective as a shutdown than another skill, not how easy it is to kill the NPCs in AB. I was making that point. You brought on an entirely different subject, though still relevant. It is easy to kill the NPCs in AB. It is easier when they can't attack you. Teddy Dan, yo. 18:34, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Player versus player environments are PvP by definition regardless of what the player community considers it. The daze condition has its flaws. I've never once even implied otherwise. Single-interrupt skills, and an overall lack of interruption, have their flaws as well. Succeeding in a player versus player environment is dependent on the opposing players, not on the task. It is just as easy for one side to win as it is another. You're basically competing with each other for the fastest cap. It's still players competing against players. Players who know how to AB simply don't compete with other players directly. Teddy Dan, yo. 18:34, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

My advice is this: Well, scratch that. I've already mentioned learning how to read. I don't brag. Bragging sets you up for someone better coming along and returning the favor. Throughout all of this, I've been explaining my side while welcoming opposing (evidence supported) opinions. I've clearly asked for it more than once. Braggarts don't ask to be disproved. Braggarts hold firm to their little thrones and discourage opposition. Also, again, (how many times do I have to say this?) I've never once implied BHA was the best skill ever. I feel like I need to type up a template just to copypasta it whenever someone claims otherwise. It's happened enough on this page alone. Fr srs, people. Reading Comprehension. As for taking anyone seriously, I stop taking someone seriously when they make claims they refuse to provide evidence to support. I ask for it time and again. I provide it when my claims are challenged. It's not that difficult, really. Unless, of course, you're wrong and just don't want to admit it. BHA is not efficient everywhere on everything. BHA is efficient in many places, against many things. BHA is not the most efficient anti-spell skill. BHA is a more efficient anti-spell skill than most. Every skill lacks in some area where another excels. I have competed in PvP. I was a member of a guild who competed in GvG on a weekly basis. I joined them for those matches somewhere between fifteen and twenty times. I've been to the Hall of Heroes. Twice. Why only twice? The sheer offensive ignorance of the average PvPer simply leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Even when it isn't directed at me. I play Guild Wars for fun, not to read children's tantrums and bickering because they don't know how to behave like adults. I enjoy JQ because it goes by so fast there really isn't much time to behave like poorly trained chimps before somebody wins and nobody has to read their crap anymore anyway. Am I good at PvP? Dunno. I win some and I lose some. It's about even. So, I guess you could say I'm average. Am I good at PvE? I certainly know most of it well enough. I know it well enough to know not to completely discount a skill as a whole based on sheer ignorance. Are we done? I really hate repeating myself. If you're not even going to read, don't bother responding. It's just a waste of my time, and trolling leads to accusations of harassment. I'd like to avoid that at all costs. Teddy Dan, yo. 18:34, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I almost forgot. Of course there are going to be better builds and better methods to capping in AB, even with a Ranger or Assassin. I do not use CritBows in AB, or any PvP at all. I would use a CritScythe or simply daggers. If you honestly believe there is nobody who has a better build and method for AB, or any PvP, than you then you are one conceited dumbass. There is always someone better. I know for damned sure there are better players than me, because there are at least three professions I know very little about. I am, however, a better Ranger than those who don't know how to use BHA. Plain and simple. Teddy Dan, yo. 16:42, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Argumentum verbosium fallacy, you are just flooding this page with irrelevant points an information making it near impossible to react on the few relavant points you bring up. Also to say that AB=/=pvp does not mean that I literally do not consider it a player versus player arena, you are just turning it into a game of semantics, again to just flood the page with info to make it look like you are making sense, when in fact you are not. Learn to express yourself in a ckear and conscise way. to put it very simple:

BHA gives a team a possible daze in return for a) taking a ranger with them and b) Using their elite on it

BHA has a good chance to miss compared to all other skills

BHA causes daze, a very unnecessary condition in pve (by the by, when i said "killing stuff>shutdown" I was clearly talking about pve, so don't try to turn it into something else, just so you can say that I am wrong...it is just another fallacy)

Now your logic of "when BHA doesn't work for you/doesn't hit/etc., it is because you are bad, not that the skill is bad", if that statement were true, then there are still better non-elite alternatives for BHA. Concusive shot causes an extremely long daze, causes an interrupt and does not have a shit trajectory. Yes, it is expensive, but hell, you have expertise and energy-management skills in this game, so no-problemo. So if you "don't suck" and land the daze of conc. shot 100% of the time then it is clearly the superior choice of the two with your logic. In other words, your logic is flawed and you are only using it when it suits YOU, to support YOUR arguments.

If you are going to respond to this (which you will), do so by keeping your points/arguments clear, conscise and relevant. Do not add statements just to bloat the volume of your texts. 79.203.69.46 19:02, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

You see it as flooding only because I lay it all out to you so you have very little to argue against. Do not add statements without evidence to support them. Is that clear and concise enough for you? Did I dumb it down enough or do I have to "bloat the volume of my text" to explain it more thoroughly? Ignorant people who try to argue with me about the little things I leave out of my posts to make them clear and concise are the very reason I "bloat the volume of my text". Can you keep up, so far? If you don't know how to read, you don't belong in a text-based discussion. Teddy Dan, yo. 20:13, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

You have done exactly that for which I was critizing you, how the hell did you manage that? You just posted a completely irrelevant bit of text that does not even attempt to show why your statements are right, or why my statement are wrong. Instead it is just an ad hominem attack that did nothing but show us that you likely do not even think that BHA is good (in that case you would have shown me why I am supposedly wrong), but that you are arguing for the sake of arguing (hence the irrelevant statements and ad hominem attacks coming from you). Rather than responding to this by calling me dumb and illiterate, respond by showing why the statements in my previous post are wrong according to you, because as of this moment you have shown little more than the statement "BHA only sucks when you suck. Conclusion: when you don't suck BHA is great". Looking forward to your serious and non-viscious reply. Sincerely, 79.203.69.46 20:26, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Concussion Shot has an energy requirement of 25 (as you made note of). BHA's is 15. Concussion shot only inflicts the dazed condition if the target was in the process of casting. BHA inflicts the dazed condition upon a successful hit, regardless of whether the target was casting or not. Concussion Shot only deals 13 damage at 12 Markmanship, 17 damage at 16 Marksmanship. BHA doesn't have that cap. BHA also interrupts upon a successful hit. Concussion shot does have a higher chance to hit, but that and its recharge/cooldown are its only redeeming qualities. Numbers don't lie and my logic stems from numbers. It is an alternative, just not a "better" one. Show me the flaw. Teddy Dan, yo. 20:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I was hasty. I forgot something. Read the "Bug" for Concussion Shot. It is relevant. Teddy Dan, yo. 20:26, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

In the above example most numbers are quite irrelevant. As I pointed out the energy management should not be a problem in PvE. If the target is not casting there is no need for it to be dazed. If it IS casting you can daze it with concusive shot just as easily as with BHA (remember, this is with your logic of "the player sucks, not the skills" so if you miss concusive shot then you just suck). Dmg is, again, a rather irrelevant number, if you are taking a bow ranger to deal dmg in PvE you are clearly not being an efficient killer (we are talking about the best skill here, not most fun, and I do not consider slow kills to be better than fast kills in normal circumstances). So the only "numbers" that really count for shutdown are:

chance to hit

length of daze/shutdown

recharge

cost

elite/non-elite

Except for the cost concusive shot is better than BHA, and as I pointed out before, the cost is not that big a deal in PvE, especially if you "don't suck" 79.203.69.46 20:40, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The bug is really only relevant for undazable/unconditionable mobs, as in all other cases when you hit the following should happen: Shoot->hit during spell activation->daze->interrupt. So yes, in the undazable scenario I would say BHA>concusion, in all other cases not. 79.203.69.46 20:40, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess I wasn't clear. *... targets who have yet to begin casting...

In your numbers that count for shutdown, you forgot to include "chance to apply condition".

As for the assumption that Rangers cannot deal damage, with Point Blank Shot(as well as Zojun's Shot) and I Am The Strongest, my Ranger does damage on par or close to the average Dervish. He has 16 Expertise, though, which is something I aim to rectify. At 16 Expertise, PBS and ZS deal +42 damage. I Am The Strongest adds another +20 damage per 8 attacks at max rank. That's +62 damage. Even for a bow, that's comparable to a Warrior or Dervish. Or hell, even most Elementalist spells. Teddy Dan, yo. 21:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I hope you realize that you're now scrutinizing me for the very same thing you did. In so being, I'm scrutinizing you for doing what I'm doing now. Throwing accusations back and forth that are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Congratulations, your trolling has distracted me. Here's a cookie. You attacked my thorough explanations as a red herring to feel good about yourself and maybe ruffle my feathers so I couldn't drop your argument like I have been. For something relevant: BHA and Concussion Shot are each flawed in ways the other is not. There is absolutely no bias in that. No twisting of the facts. No iteration of logic purely to suit my diabolical plan to control the world via BHA. Stop looking for it, it isn't there. I asked for supporting evidence, you provided me with a Concussion Shot. I considered its qualities and evaluated them. I compared them to those of BHA and found them lacking. That is not to say BHA lacks nothing. That would be ridiculous. I provided the numbers as evidence to support my claims. I'm waiting for your next move. If you can prove me wrong, so be it. I'm not afraid of being wrong. I welcome it, because it means there's something I can learn that I've been missing. So, do you have any further encouragement for Concussion Shot or do you have another skill in mind? Can we discuss this with civility or are you going to continue to attack me and my thorough explanations? Teddy Dan, yo. 20:39, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not so much trying to show you that BHA is bad, I am trying to show you that your logic "players don't suck, skills suck" is flawed. Because is if a player is godly there is absolutely no reason to take BHA over concussion. Yet players aren't godly, so in a lot of instance BHA>concusion, thus your logic is flawed. Also, I never red herringed, I have stated clearly what my intentions were every single time and what I was expecting and acted accordingly, so stop the ad hominem attacks. Not once have I said something bad about you as a person in this discussion, yet you have now insulted me by calling me illiterate, dumb, putting words in my mouth and comparing me to you without anything but opinions to support all of that, please stop doing so. Attack, my statements with arguments and examples, do not attack me with what you think I am, or have done 79.203.69.46 20:47, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I suppose Splinter Weapon would break the limited damage of Concussion Shot. It's been so long since I've tried buffing it that I honestly don't remember what affects that cap. I'm willing to explore it, again. If it so happens my suspicions are right then you could use Glass Arrows (and/or I Am The Strongest in PvE) to potentially surpass BHA. From then on, it would simply be a matter of energy management and using it at the precise time. If those obstacles can be overcome, it would indeed become a beneficial replacement for BHA. Until then, though... Teddy Dan, yo. 20:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

"Argumentum verbosium fallacy, you are just flooding this page with irrelevant points an information making it near impossible to react on the few relavant points you bring up." "In other words, your logic is flawed and you are only using it when it suits YOU, to support YOUR arguments." "If you are going to respond to this (which you will), do so by keeping your points/arguments clear, conscise and relevant. Do not add statements just to bloat the volume of your texts." " You have done exactly that for which I was critizing you, how the hell did you manage that? You just posted a completely irrelevant bit of text that does not even attempt to show why your statements are right, or why my statement are wrong. Instead it is just an ad hominem attack... you are arguing for the sake of arguing." These are all irrelevant attacks against my explanations and my intelligence. I've accepted your challenge and shown you the evidence, the first quote being from your very first post on my page. In so being, your very first statement directed toward me was an attack. How much longer are you going to pull me off track just to have the last insult? Teddy Dan, yo. 21:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC) That is not what an ad hominem is, they were facts. AD hominem is if I had called you "stupid" or "everything you say is untrue because you can't spell" etc. 79.203.69.46 10:14, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

You posted on an archived page just to get the last insult in, thus proving my point. Also, if they were facts, they'd be true. They were not. They were opinions you failed to support. Now, this page has been archived. Read the template at the top. I didn't post that. Someone with the authority to ban you did. Stay off this page or I will report you for vandalism. Teddy Dan, yo. 14:12, 25 January 2011 (UTC)