User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Update20080206

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  • Decreased the variance in trebuchet impacts in GvG by reducing the target deviation and increasing the area-of-effect.
  • Health sacrifice now displays as a skill cost.

Victory or Death

Was adding Victory is Ours really necessary? Not everyone wants to run a split these days. NPCs should not decide the outcome of a match.
They always have, though. Waiting for a "Victory is Yours!" now. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 22:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
FTFY. --71.229.204.25 22:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, got it that time. --71.229.204.25 22:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Lawl, "fixed the fail for you"? -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 23:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
"Victory is Ours" should be based on a % of how many npcs are alive. i think this broke GvG

Assassin

  • Shadow Refuge Shadow Refuge: decreased duration to 4 seconds; increased Health gain to 40..100.
is this undocumented? why is this not on http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Game_updates/20080206 --Life Infusion «T» 02:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Duh? -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 04:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Mesmer

  • Power Leak Power Leak: decreased target foe's Energy loss to 1..5.
pleak needs nerf, but this is overkill Lightblade 21:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Lolwtf? Since when was this skill overpowered? It was good in hands of a good mesmer, but seriously...wts fake-casting? 91.152.188.112 21:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree, way overkill. 3..10 would have been more reasonable. And yes, it was overpowered - get hit by it once and you've just lost five small prots. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 21:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
well it was obviously overused as energy denial much like fear me was overused im starting to think this might be a reasonable change after all because even non-mesmers were using it with minimal or 0 points in domination magic. i think power leak will need a energy cost reduction and/or recharge time reduction if it's gonna stay like this though. 216.218.214.2 21:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I like to see you fake cast your aegis for 3 times and everytime is cancelled on the tail only to find out at the end that the mes wasn't even paying attention to you. Lightblade 22:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Can this replace Horns as the skill to be overnerfed? It needs to take atleast 12 energy at 15.Prokiller88 22:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
At least make it even... so they lose as much as you do to cast it.72.130.138.253 23:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Seriously. It should remove 5...10 instead seeing how Power spike costs half the energy and 100 or so damage for 5 energy is better than 5 energy loss for 10 energy. That would be a 50% nerf (20 to 10) instead of now, which is insanity (20 to 5) of a 75% nerf. Keep in mind this is more active than Energy burn which removes 3...7...8 on 20 cooldown. --Life Infusion «T» 03:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Could we get some official explanation about this ? I actually do not appreciate the way Anet seems to be looking at this, is it the politically correct way of saying "we remove this skill from the game" ? I'm pretty sure smart reflexions will solve problems better than such politics. This skill's been played for a VERY long time and indeed was a bit too powerfull especially since it got a 12s reload. Nevertheless, setting up a new scale like 0...15 would have probably been more constructive. Btw, i'll enlight the fact that it was a perfect counter to nasty and mindless spams of spells (fire E..) and even though it was deadly when hitting a Guardian or an Aegis there are better ways to solve problems.~~ Azul Frigid Armor.jpg 18:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the Mesmer may often time waste more energy casting this spell than the foe. --65.38.32.11 05:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

whoever nerfed this needs to lern to play, and armond, this was not overpowered at all. Sit on a 25E set when monking, and VOILA! U get p-leaked an can still weaopn cast, Whoever nerft this is failure hear me?? FAILURE! 24.141.45.72 16:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
And whoever wrote that needs to learn some things as well.. but I won't go there. This skill was definitely in need of a nerf. But this is, just like most people have pointed out already, quite an overkill. at least add andother 2-3 energy to the effect... Right now it's rather disappointing. --ILLUSiVE 23:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
whats the point of losing 10 energy for interupting and making the foe lose 5 energy? --90.227.105.24 22:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Izzy Please xplain yourself You nerfed it then u put it back to like 21 energy lost? What exactly are you trieng to do? Keep this skill in the meta? I guess thats fine, I like playing mesmer and look forward to doing it in GW2 but please try not to kill all the skills and then nerf em back, Try posting on here and then making the change rather then goin head first and wating ur time changing it back... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:150.176.182.29 (talk).

He explained himself at User:Isaiah Cartwright/Monk/Guardian. -- Gordon Ecker 01:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Clumsiness Clumsiness: increased casting time to 2 seconds; increased recharge time to 10 seconds; now affects adjacent foes.
Are we trying to make melee spikes dumb? Put this on a warrior as he charges your monk and watch the other warrior/derv get hit by it too. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 21:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This increased casting time is bad; now there's fewer counters to physical attackers. 216.218.214.2 23:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
That's the point. There's way too many of them as it is, even after this update. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 23:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The cast time isn't as bad as people make it out to be. 2 cast on a mesmer with 8-10 Fast casting makes it a little less than 1.4 seconds as compared to the 0.7 second or so it original was. At least now it can be interrupted. Keep in mind the low recharge for the 80 or so damage (more on frenzy warriors). --Life Infusion «T» 03:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
No one was complaining. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 07:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Looks like a PvE buff actually, works well on grouped melee foes, 2 second cast to reduce PvP effect. I like it. --Epinephrine 14:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Guys please rethink this this could never be used in high end gvg's now simply cuz if u want to spkie u can just click d shot on spike n GG... Up the skill or change back to 1 second i understand the pve efectivness but its like taking the skill our of high end gvgs... And trust meh 10 second recharge is BAD for 10 energy and 2 second cast. at 4 recast 90 damage and 1 second cast was much better. I like the area thing but cast time overkill? Armond pleaser rethink ur frenzy war ideas wariors have the highest DPS so if this gets nerfed game is far from balanced.
Warriors have the highest DPS in the game and? the game is meant to be played like this and don't tell me there is not plenty of skills aimed at reducing warriors effectiveness. Don't talk about balance here please. Ichiko 13:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Guys, it is NOT effective in PvE! It triggers on adjacent foes, but it does only damage the guy that you hexed. Only on one target! If it would damage adjacent foes as well, it would be REALLY good in PvE, but like this it fails very hard in both pve and pvp. --Longasc 19:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

On a related note, this skill is now much worse than before the buffs it received. It was 10-1-10 and had longer duration. I cannot understand the hate for Sineptitude builds. If they are so great, they should have come up much earlier, as the skill was definitely more powerful a whole year ago if you check the skill history. Please revert back to the state of the previous patch. --Longasc 15:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone please rephrase the skill description. I just checked it ... again ... and it is an AoE Hex now. Make it plural, "foes"... Epinephrine is right then. My bad. I did not notice it's AoE effect yesterday. --Longasc 15:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Ether Feast Ether Feast: increased healing to 20..50 Health per Energy lost by target.
makes mesmers more resilient. yay...maybe.--Life Infusion «T» 02:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
No? Use monks. This skill is consistently fail. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 04:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I use this as a self heal for my mesmer heroes, and it makes them a lot more durable in Hard Mode. I like it. Nicky Silverstar 13:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
awesome now you can combine hex breaker with distortion 216.218.214.2 21:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
this used to be a good warrior cancel stance. Now it isn't. Now it is an insane self-targeting holy veil that can't be removed. --Life Infusion «T» 02:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Like someone tried to remove Hex Breaker before. Lightblade 03:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Wild Throw on a Paragon.--Life Infusion «T» 03:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
No one uses wild throw... much less specifically to get rid of this. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 04:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Just making a point here. It is more reliable now since you can run it with mantras. --Life Infusion «T» 04:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeh great now you got [Me] running with 3 monks with hex braker? broken? lmao btw izzy needs to stop taking bribes from [Me] cuz all he does is buff their build...

Up recharge to 30 as well, imo - you can still keep a warrior useless for 20% of the time. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 21:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I think decreasing the damage would be a better option. The blind isn't deadly on 20 cooldown, the damage to a warrior frenzying is (mainly because it is armor ignoring). --Life Infusion «T» 02:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Both are horrible to have on you. Both in one skill is a bad idea. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 07:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Nerf damage, buff recharge, buff blind duration. That should address the main complaint about this skill in PvP (too much damage) and the main complaint about the skill in PvE (blindness is not sustainable). -- Gordon Ecker 08:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I do not believe that just because a guild used a stragetic team involving 2 assassins and 3 illusion mesmers (two with Ineptitude and Clumsiness) and won justify any more aggressive nerf for Ineptitude and Clumsiness. Seriously I liked how that guild came up with a more original team than the standard. I was a breathe of fresh air. They saw teams relied too much on Tanks and Dervish to do all the damage that the casters barely do anything but support. It was also very brilliant how they knew there would be lots of 3 monks teams that they brought a lot of armor ignoring damage for their sin spikes. I think well thought out gameplay like that should not go punished. Is it not boring to observe GvG to always see the common theme of 2 Warrior or Dervish doing all the damage and the rest of the team just supporting. --Shadetz X 07:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
No. Ichiko 13:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it does not make sense. Both Clumsiness and Ineptitude are now WORSE than ever before. They received buffs because they were not used - and once they are used, they get nerfed to hell. You are right, they are not rewarding creativity or varied gameplay, they adjust everything so that it fits the metagame. And then you hear people lamenting about blockwebs and a stale metagame and stuff like that... also, nerfing the build of the tournament winner is bad style and is almost insulting and cannot really be the basis for skill balancing! They did not win because of broken skills, they played smart and really deserved to win. --Longasc 15:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
They won because sineptitude is impossible to pin down and kill on isle of wurms. A build that is impossible to beat shouldn't be subject to nerfing because someone won a game with it? Lord of all tyria 15:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, for teams depending overy much on their physical attackers and having weak hex removal it is very hard. But this team is just a counter to more common builds featuring 2 warriors+X. Sineptitude has been beaten before, is beaten right now and people know it by know. This statement is a bit too blunt and not really true. --Longasc 15:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Weak hex removal? Ineptitude comes on, ineptitude comes off. In about 1/2 a second. But I expect you're so pro that you could d-shot all the copies of it on its 1 sec cast. If you didn't screw up, you wouldn't die, and with izzy set on making NPCs the only way to win games, winning was too easy. Lord of all tyria 15:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
You could say this without being so insulting sarcastic. :> --Longasc 15:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
True, but I like being sarcastic. Lord of all tyria 15:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Guess I'm the only one who likes this update. Oh well, poor me. --ILLUSiVE 23:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Nah, it's just that 90% of the people posting here are the ones who don't like it. The ones who do like it usually don't post a thing. — Galil Talk page 12:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
So basically, the skill was destroyed because a bunch of idiots playing Warriors (because they lack the skill for any other class) are too dumb to realise that Frenzy has always had a draw back, the double damage, and they use it anyway and then cry because they took damage when doing so. Pathetic. I know most people who play Warriors aren't too bright, but wow, to not even know how the skill they are using works and then whine about it. That's sad. I know the book that came with the game told you guys that the Warrior was the best class to start with because it was easy enough for any idiot to play, but if you are still having issues with this then you might want to try another game instead of crying about the down-sides of skills and trying to get everything else Nerfed. Innocent Depravity 23:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
No. It was nerfed because it was overpowered damage because mesmers could easily throw it on a warrior mid-spike (when he has to be frenzied), which destroyed the warrior and shut him down for forever. The damage is already plenty outside of frenzy, and any skilled mesmer can dump it on a warrior as he runs up to his target so the warrior has literally zero chance to react. Bring three copies of it and the other guys can't do any damage worth noting. Before you go bashing on the skill needed for a class, go watch the top 10 guilds get exploded by various people (noobs or no) abusing overpowered skills like this. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 22:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
"any skilled mesmer can dump it on a warrior as he runs up to his target so the warrior has literally zero chance to react"
Uh, if the warrior is running up then he should have plenty of time to react or hold off on throwing Frenzy for a few more seconds. If the warrior is that bad a player, then that's too bad. Why balance the skills around keeping horrible players good? That's ridiculous unless the majority of the people still playing are all that bad, which sort of seems like it might be the case anymore. If the warrior is throwing frenzy before he gets to his target then he should be shot down easily before he ever gets there. That's supposed to be how you learn not to do stupid things like that.
"Before you go bashing on the skill needed for a class"
If you think Frenzy is needed for the class, then you'd be one of those really horrible players. There are far better attack speed buffs that don't have as big a draw-back as Frenzy does, but people don't seem to be smart enough to use them. Frenzy can be good, but only if used correctly. Since most people aren't that skilled, they need to use other attack speed boosts so they don't get destroyed in seconds and have to run crying about it.
If two or more players team up on one, then they should easily be able to kill them. Two or more on one should always win, if a single class can hold off mutiple players with too much ease, then that class is over-powered, not the half dozen attacking him. Innocent Depravity 23:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
No, you don't understand. The warrior gets approximately half a second to react, during which he has to stop attacking, tell his team the spike is off, and watch everyone else waste resources (adrenaline and energy) as they cancel the skills they're using.
There's no drawback to Frenzy except for Ineptitude and Clumsiness, which do way too much damage anyway. You just have to not be stupid as you use it.
I said the skill necessary for a class, not the skills. The ability, not the buttons. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 23:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
So Frenzy has no drawbacks except for those two skills? Then you admit that it is an over-powered skill and should be nerfed, because all attack speed bonuses have a drawback, and if it doesn't, then one should be implimented immediatly. Frenzy is intended to have a down side, but if it's only being affected by two skills then obviously the skill is inproperly balanced and should have the drawback further added to. Perhaps a negitive movement speed? Personally, I don't see how it has no drawbacks, as I cannot count the number of warriors I've had run up on my Elementalist and die long before they can do enough damage to warrent healing, but admitidly that's more of a one-on-one situation, however for the kind of Spikes you're talking about setting up, well... first off if the Spike is so flimsy that it hinges on one warrior above all else, then it's a rather crappy Spike. Not to mention Spikes do need a way to be countered in order to keep them balanced out. I'm still not sure how you figure the Warrior only gets a half second to react if he is throwing Frenzy while he is still running up, and has Inneptitude thrown onto him, but I guess that's a matter of having the skill to watch your foes and react to them instead of just fumbeling in and wondering what happened when you find yourself dead a few seconds later. Guild Wars is supposed to be about strategy and a player's skill and if another team can bring skills to use your weeknesses to their advantage and beat you, then they've done a good job of being creative and having better strategy and skill at setting up their team than you, and brovo to them for having more skill and playing ability than their opponents, they earned the win. Innocent Depravity 08:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
You don't know what you're talking about, and you're ranting. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 08:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Ya know, I wondered how you were going to try and cover for yourself after basically making enough statments above to show just how little skill you have at the game and particulary the Warrior class, and how little you actually know about what your talking about. I mean, after all, you attempted to explain why a skill needed nerfed by talking about how another skill you like is over-powered and should be, then you further back it up by talking about how you aren't skilled enough to know how to counter other skills used against you or even watch your opponent and react to their attacks in a timely manner without being killed by them. So your only comeback in an attempt to cover for all this, is to accuse me of ranting and claim I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about. You even admit to not playing GvG in a long time (on Gaile's page), so you really have no clue. Classic and anusing, just not helpful to your case.  ;) Innocent Depravity 23:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead NERF it some more so I can QUIT GW because im SICK or the MELEE based META...

  • Wandering Eye Wandering Eye: decreased duration to 4 seconds; increased casting time to 2 seconds, increased recharge time to 10 seconds; increased damage to 10..92.
Why increase damage? --Life Infusion «T» 02:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Because they want to put the hurt on frenzy wars? -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 04:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Did anyone use this when it was 4...55? -- Gordon Ecker 08:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
No. 87.189.254.53 13:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Again, PvE mesmer buff. Thanks! --Epinephrine 14:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Drain Enchantment Drain Enchantment: decreased Energy cost to 5 Energy; decreased Energy gain to 8..13 Energy.
Much better. --Life Infusion «T» 02:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Much worse. The entire point of this skill has always been emanagement. Screw the health gain, make it back the way it was. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 04:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
how is it worse if it got its energy cost decreased and the energy only reduced by like 1 energy if you run 14 attribute (7...15) to (8...13)? --Life Infusion «T» 04:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Am I missing something? Previously, it cost 10e and gave you 13e at 12 Inspiration, for a net gain of +3. Now it costs 5e and gives you 12e, for a net gain of +7. -- Hong 04:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
he's probably talking about when it used to give around 22 energy back for 10 energy cost.--Life Infusion «T» 04:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 07:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
You said health gain? --SK 07:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, they added it in the October 12th update. For the record, accorting to GuildWiki it was originally 10e/1a/25r 10...20...22 Energy, in the October 25th 2006 update they changed it to 10e/1a/30r and 5...17...20, in the August 9th update they changed it to 15e/2a/20r 15...23...25 Energy Gain, and in the October 12th update they changed it to 10e/2a/20r 7...13...15 Energy gain and 40...104...120 Health gain. -- Gordon Ecker 08:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Mesmers (between improved Ether Feast and a 5 energy Drain with healing) look to be somewhat better equipped now, which is nice. If they are pushing for more splitting in GvG (which it seems is the case) I like the boosts to the se skills. --Epinephrine 14:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It..did...not...need...a...nerf... People who suck at e-manage say that, but unless in the hands of a useful mesmer it was easily counterable 24.141.45.72 19:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Necromancer

sweet. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Chilblains Chilblains: increased number of enchantments removed to 1..2.
It is too expensive for an enchantment removal skill. Maybe 15 energy? --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Looks fine to me. I predict GoE+Chillblains elementalists, able to strip 2 enchantments of everyone in the area, pretty constantly. --Epinephrine 14:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Still has a 2 sec casting time though so there's room to interrupt it. The problem is with the glyph you can cancel cast as much as you want :(.--Zarfol 16:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I love owning smiteball.--74.12.187.47 04:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
This skill is still substantially worse than Well of the Profane, however. And the cost of needing one corpse is pretty trivial, especially in game modes such as Heroes Ascent. As such, since that would pretty much be the only place Chilblains would be used anyhow, I don't see it receiving much play.Samcobra 22:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Plague Touch Plague Touch: increased number of conditions transferred to 1..3.
odd. It would only be useful for non-cripple conditions since it is touch range. Granted it needs only 4 spec for 2 conditions to be removed. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
WHAT? I think you broke the energy system. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
You're helping suicide touch necros, which aren't exactly good. This + Masochism means you GAIN energy. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe they can spend that energy using health steals to make up what they lost? It does seem like overkill, but I'm willing to see how it plays. --Epinephrine 14:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I think 1 energy is overkill. This + Masochism means you GAIN energy. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This + Masochism means you GAIN energy. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Question: why is that bad? I thought life sacrifice was expensive in cost? (note that this is an actual question, not a sarcastic way to make a point or something like that.) Nicky Silverstar 07:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This is still bad, since it increases the cost of saccing and the lack of a heal when it ends means there is no real benefit...blood needs saccing (you get an HP Spike like Endure Pain/Defy Pain/Signet of Stamina/Vital Blessing/etc. ...Vital Boon is the exception due to the heal at the end). This could be For 30...54 seconds, your sacrifice costs are decreased by 25...50%. You are immune to poison, disease, and weakness [the conditions from Virulence]. Then you could make those non-utility pure damage sac skills useful at 5 energy...--Life Infusion «T» 23:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This + Masochism means you GAIN energy. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
yay? --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
should've probably just increased the energy gain instead. --Life Infusion «T» 03:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Because the class with the second best energy management in the game needed cheaper skills, amirite? --71.229.204.25 21:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC) watch for the resurgence of DA bombers and Boon Prots.
A lot of these updates make me wonder what the point is. They're still bad skills, except in the cases of BiP and BR; a few others have niche roles, but that's it. If you're trying to make BiP or BR useful in HA/GvG, BR needs a shorter cast time and BiP needs to not be suicide to use. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 21:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Blood magic has been bad for anything but spiking and touchers and needed something to bring it back into viability. I'm glad they are trying these 1 energy spells. 87.189.229.111 22:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a good thought, but I doubt it'll actually do anything. And you can't really afford to have BiP be good; that just makes it like channeling in HA, where you can make monks that don't ever have to worry about their energy. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 22:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
BiP is a wowzers skil now, very wowsers indeed...The basicly is an energy generating machine now, I'm very much impressed. The onk being bipped can simply prot bond the necro :S
Well, I like the out-of-the-box thinking that Izzy uses. New problems cannot be solved with old methods. Nicky Silverstar 07:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Lol@ the comments about BiP ... when was the energy cost EVER an issue with this skill. Make it free .. no wait .. make it GAIN 15 energy when you use it ... it doesn't matter .. 33% lifesac is the balancing mechanism here (and it's a doozey!)
(Resetting Indent since the above is OT) : Increasing the energy gain would not allow you to bring your energy up from 1, you'd have to wait for 5 E. IMO, it would have been nicer if the energy cost was 0, so you could cast it while in negative energy. 20% health sac is still a bit much though. Boon Prot might be fun to mess around with now --Zarfol 16:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Touch Power ;o --65.38.32.11 06:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not think it is possible to discuss singular skills when this 1 energy stuff is almos a new mechanic for necros. This said, the touch skills still do nothing good outside of gimmicky builds, but these worked already with blood magic. Dark Pact, Blood Renewal and Offering of Blood are now very interesting, but I do not think it makes blood magic more viable for PvP outside of the lower level arenas and gimmicky blood spike builds that already existed... and for PvE, blood is still nothing compared to curses or MMing. Necrosis or other pve skills can replace most blood life steals very well. Plague touch is nice for secondary necros, and hexers vigor is now much more viable and works. Not really good, but no longer bad at all. --Longasc 19:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Monk

Given that the heal gain is atrocious still. It is also really bad now that Heaven's Delight has 15 recharge. Needs the 5 recharge back given the weak heal. --Life Infusion «T» 03:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
actually on second thought 8 recharge would be a better number (basically half of the recharge that Heaven's Delight has). 5+2 cast time=7 delay right now with high interrupt probability. --Life Infusion «T» 03:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. I like the spirit of this change but the downside was a bit overdone. Reduce recharge to 8 sec or slightly buff healing to make it worth the elite status. Beetlejuice 14:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Alright bro, Izzy, Why not Boost this skill hmm keep the low heals its fine enough but recharge should be at around 5 seconds to make this any usefull in GvG again.
Izzy, is this a buff or a nerf in your eyes? 59.100.12.75 20:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
LoD is also the only self-healing skill in a monk bar in gvg, it's really weak as it is. Ichiko 13:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It's true that monks have few "red bars go up" skills that selftarget and are good (i.e. Dwayna's Kiss and Gift of Health). It doesn't help Divine Boon monks have been dead for ages. However WoH/ZB/Glimmer (niche)/Blessed Light (niche) target self... maybe Words of Comfort/Orison/ Ethereal Light if running Healer's Boon (since you'd bring Reversal of Fortune otherwise) and the conditional Dismiss Condition /Cure Hex... The new buff to Heaven's Delight/Divine Healing also acts as a self heal albeit on 15 cooldown. As for conditional/semi-reliable heals, Reversal of fortune/Spirit Bond/Signet of Devotion (maybe if you run high DF) may qualify. If it bothers you that much bring Healing touch but keep in mind Divine favor still counts as a "heal" however small it may be. --Life Infusion «T» 20:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

just delete LoD, not useful now, but wen it was useful monking in GvG was easy 24.141.45.72 00:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Heal Party Heal Party: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased healing to 30..75 Health.
Nice gesture to non-Healer's Boon WoH monks but this basically made Healer's Boon weaker by tenfold(outside of powering Ethereal Light). --Life Infusion «T» 03:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This strengthened Healer's Boon, if anything. The reason to run an HBoon is for the super healing power. A WoH monk will not have the energy to out heal extreme party damage that is often found in close-quarter maps such as many in HA. It may be somewhat viable in GvG now, but the meta in GvG means that prots will be much more efficient in handling party pressure than straight heals, due to general lack of degen builds.
  • Divine Healing Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight Heaven's Delight: decreased Energy cost to 5; decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge to 15 seconds; decreased healing to 15..60 Health.
nice. Now I can go smite sometimes. --Life Infusion «T» 03:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that Izzy wants these to be more emergency heal and less continuous party boost skill, which is understandable to me. Plus, they are more in line with other fast casting party heals like those of the Paragon and Breath of the Great Dwarf, which all have low casting times and high recharges. Lasty, 10 seconds isn't that bad. I wish some of my nukes had 10 seconds recharge. Nicky Silverstar 07:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I liked them better when they were 30 secs for pve, practically a party full heal 76.26.189.65 16:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
me too, much easier to use now but heal much less --90.228.255.183 22:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

no1 cares about the skills, and i dont think ever will 24.141.45.72 01:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Elementalist

pretty pointless. --Life Infusion «T» 03:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. It gives you a decent self heal in an attribute that you're gonna use with every Elementalist build you make. It may or may not be pratical to bring a self heal, but at leat this one will hold up to alternatives like Mystic Regeneration. Nicky Silverstar 07:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
RA buff? (i guess its for splits too) 76.26.189.65 16:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure makes up for the Mystic Regeneration nerf on the E/D mind blast bar. Lightblade 09:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

A very nice change. Churning Earth's casting time could use a similar reduction IMHO. Would you please consider it? Nicky Silverstar 22:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. This this has "in the area" range and 66% speed debuff with 66% uptime (with 0 attribute investment since the snare doesn't scale. Why buff cast time? --Life Infusion «T» 03:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I think because any Elementalist spell with a casting time higher than 2 is pretty much useless in PvP. Also, this doesn't do that much damage and when it comes down to it, the area isn't as big as it seems. I could be wrong though. Nicky Silverstar 07:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This has such limited usage, but maybe it will go on shock W/Es for linebacking. --Life Infusion «T» 03:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I would have prefered to see the PbAoE aftercast removed from this one. Then it would have a nice synergy with aftershock. Beetlejuice 14:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Nice gesture but the number of skills you can use this with (effectively) are extremely limited (Gale, Obsidian Flame, Rodgort's Invocation, Earthquake, Chain Lightning).--Life Infusion «T» 03:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
GoE might be.. troublesome. Other than that, GJ.
Gale every 8 seconds is scary...72.130.138.253 23:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
What about Earthquake/Dragon Stomp on a mesmer? :P --65.95.69.189 23:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Also used to fake cast without using any energy. Used to fake diversion a lot. Lightblade 03:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It can now actually serve as an energy management skill by itself, without having to resort to others like GoLE or an attunement. Which, in my humble opinion, is as it should be, since elite energy management shouldn't have to rely on other forms of energy management for support. This will make multiple exhaustion skills on the same bar viable. Nicky Silverstar 07:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a bit overpowered I think - and as I mentioned under Chilblains above, this is just asking to be used on a midliner to power Deep Freeze (or Earthquakes/wards?), with 8 ranks in curses to get an AoE (in the area) double enchantment removal. --Epinephrine 14:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Recharge is quite short, I have to agree. 1 sec cast time kind of brings it in line though. Also, I think the glyph should be consumed when you start casting the spell, not after the spell completes--Zarfol 16:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
That would make canceling worthless, which you need to do after using a glyph (the huge animation makes every mesmer and ranger within a thousand miles turn to interrupt you). -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 16:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It was reverted back to 10 seconds again...don't really know why, but it is still good. May I suggest lowering the casting time of Dragon's Stomp and Earthquake to make this more practical? It would mostly affect PvE, so it shouldn't be too bad a change... Nicky Silverstar 22:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll tell you why. Mesmers using it to spam Gale and Deep Freeze to kingdom come. Arshay Duskbrow 03:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see. It is typical that mesmers always have to be the bane of Elementalists, both ingame and outside. :p It doesn't matter too much, the skill is still good. Nicky Silverstar 08:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the energy reduction ought to scale? Though that does nothing about Gale-spam... Failure chance with less than 5 energy storage? -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 00:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

/Signed @ Armond: 50% chance to fail, if energy storage is below 5 and set the skill back to 7 seconds recharge... 83.171.163.136 00:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The problem then becomes that you just give an E/Me with the same skills and he's doing almost the same thing. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 06:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
But you can easier interrupt an E/Me as an Me/E or why do you think that this isn't played by Eles now instead of Me? ^^ 83.171.156.142 16:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
For one, quarter second casts like most mesmer interrupts are pretty much unaffected by fast casting. For another, it's still a perfectly viable build with the slower cast times. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 20:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if the recharge time could be scaled..leaving it at 10 until EStorage is at 8 or nine in which it goes down to 7..that or why not tie it to Estorage so that at 0 Estorage it works on only 1 skill but at 9 it works on 2 and a 16 it works on 3? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:71.102.24.213 (talk).
Sure, Discharge Enchantment can affect its' own recharge time. -- Gordon Ecker 03:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Warrior

Did it fix the bug?Prokiller88 22:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Bug? --SK 16:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
It counts as a heal, not as health gain, as the description states. Scourge Healing triggers when it shouldn't Saphatorael 18:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Wars might be able to split/gank alone again...woohoo72.130.138.253 23:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Lion's Comfort Lion's Comfort: increased healing to 40..100 Health; increased Health gain per Tactics rank to 7.
Quoted directly from Izzy in ByoB play: "This skill is horrible." LOL, a strength skill that gives more health if you spec in tactics than in strength. How rediculous. Perhaps make it give you one strike of adren to make up for its cost, allowing you to not have to choose between speed boost and self-heal.Samcobra 22:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
lulz --90.227.105.24 22:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I use it on my Assassin in combination with Watch Yourself and then it actually isn't that bad. I just completely ignore the Strength part. Nicky Silverstar 07:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Ranger

Still probably one of the worst self-heals in the game, but much appreciated. Really, rangers don't need anything more than this. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 21:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
It might be the worst... but its really the only viable one.72.130.138.253 23:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Worthless, and will continue to be so until the activation is lowered. By the way, Punishing Shot needs additional on-interrupt bonus damage. Also: Strike as One is still worthless, Expert's Dexterity is still worthless, Disrupting Shot is still worthless, Scavenger's Focus is still worthless, Power Shot is still worthless, Splinter Shot is still worthless, Arcing Shot is still worthless, Archer's Signet is still worthless, Companionship is still worthless, Expert Focus is still worthless, Dryder's Defenses is still worthless, and so on and on. Arshay Duskbrow 23:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Rangers aren't the only proffession with useless skills and elites. The troll unguent(and other self heals) buff was probably intended to promote more split play in the game. In fact, the overall update was probably designed to encourage split play but at the same time (properly) reducing the power of sineptitude by hitting the mesmers.

Party healing was buffed so unlike the old meta were if you lost LOD you would die to pressure, the new party healing framework is much more robust.

The new meta is probably going to be hard splitting with defense ball at stand and spiking contest come VOD with the "Victory is Ours!" mechanic.

We'll see how well the defense ball holds though between Grenth dervishes and massive enchantment removal. As for Troll, 13 seconds is nice, but 2 second activation, please. Even at 2 seconds it's an easy interrupt, 3 is forever. --Epinephrine 14:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Grenth's dervs are still inferior to wars by far. Troll -> 2 sec activation is bad because with a 2 sec cast in a ranger v ranger scrim you can only get one interrupt off on a 2sec troll (compared to 2 interrupts on a 3sec troll) and you'll have much less chance of going through stride.


00:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think this was a rather pointless buff. The only PvP arena that use this skill is RA. This 5> energy heal for Rangers already negates +15 energy worth of hexes from Mesmer and Necro. In addition it very energy effective. For less than 5 energy you can gain +200HP in 10 seconds. Rangers are spamming evasion stances left and right in arenas so survival is clearly out of the question. I really question the reason behind this buff. --Shadetz X 08:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
If you have problems with evasion stances i suggest you take a look at Wild Strike, Wild Throw and Wild Blow. And if you think TU is to energy efficient i suggest you take a look at Healing Signet and Lion's Comfort. And btw, your 200 healing meant 14 wilderness before patch, quite unlikely considering that this attribute line is only good for trapping.
Honestly, this skill was bad before the buff and is still bad. Bring down casting time to 1 sec and it is actually worth investing in an attribute line just for this one skill. Beetlejuice 14:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This skills 3 sec. activation isn't a problem in any way. There is NO Ranger without an evasive stance. It was good enough for splitting and survivability for Rangers before the update, and now it's a tad bit better. And on an off-topic note: can't there be an ACTUAL buff to the crap-skills at some point? I mean... Power Shot and all those other horrible skills are still... well... horrible. And speaking of skill-updates: I want an actually working Swirling Aura. LOL --ILLUSiVE 23:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
People who say 3 sec castingtimes are no problem are generally mesmers who are so used to casting everything twice as fast as everyone else or people who never used the skill. 3 second castingtime is very well a huge problem on this. First mesmers don't care about your evasion stance when they interrupt this and second even for a direct heal 3 seconds waiting to have the healing kicking in is way to long, if you don't even get a direct heal then things are much worse. Right now i would pick restful breeze over this one anytime. And yes, i know it ends when you attack. Still much better considering the castingtime and lower attribute requirements.
This update obviously was meant to give all classes a viable self heal. On Rangers it clearly failed achieving this. Beetlejuice 20:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Rangers have a reliable self heal...it is called Heal As One. Apart from that, I think that Rangers were never meant to have a good self heal (don't get started on how pets are weak, I said reliable, not strong. Heal As One is the best self heal the ranger has...which certainly says something on wheter or not they were meant to have one).
Heal as One is a failure of an elite. Beetlejuice, a self-heal that ends when you attack on an attack-based class is fail. Troll was fine before (the only time you ever actually needed to rely on it was when you were splitting out of your monks' ranges, when you wanted to get attacking faster anyway because you had limited time before you were attacking), it just got a token buff with this update. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 05:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, take another look at this update. The buffs to Healing Signet, Lion's Comfort, Glyph of Restoration and Ether Feast all very strongly suggest that this update was about buffing self heals to enable splitting and lighten dependence on monks. And all those buffs work well and achieve just that. All of them heal far beyond 100hp now and all of them are on 1 sec activation (apart from Healing Signet, but that one has no activation cost and a short recast to balance that and you can still use Lions Comfort if that is not enough). TU on the other hand does not only have 3 times the activation time of those heals but also is the only one on an attribute line you do not normaly put points in and if you survived those 3 seconds castingtime AND did not get interrupted you do not even get a straight heal, you have to wait another 13 seconds for the full healing. Bottom line, while those others are now very reliable self heals TU will only save you from an illusion mesmer who thinks Conjure Nightmare is a oneshot killer.
Now if you can explain to me why rangers are not meant to have a reliable self heal while mesmers, warriors and elementalists are, that would help a lot. Otherwise all i can say is what i said before, great work on buffing healing sig, lions comfort, glyph of restoration and ether feast but complete failure (just to use this obviously very popular word on this wiki) on Trolls. Beetlejuice 15:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
WOW 3 moar seconds im dying to test this out --90.227.105.24 22:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
You assume, incorrectly, that it's worth bringing any of those four skills. It's not; it's never worth devoting a skill to healing (especially ones as clunky as Lion's Comfort, Healing Signet, and Glyph of Restoration) when you have a monk around. When you don't (which is often the case with the ranger), you need a self-heal. Troll is held to a lower standard than the others because it's assumed you'll need it. If you bring a heal on your warrior, elementalist, or mesmer, you're losing power, utility, or both to do something your monk should be doing better. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 23:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Heal As One is good for what it does: it combines skill slots into one and negates the need for yet another attribute, giving you points to spare for more useful things. I use it in AB and it works like a charm (more like a Comfort and a Troll, but you get my point). Nicky Silverstar 08:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
But it requires a pet. :/ -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 17:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Can't really believe what I'm seeing here.... The buff isnt going to make a huge difference to much, and 3 second activation is what makes this skill one that requires, well, skill. You actually have to be tactical about using it in order to get it off successfully, ie. duck behind a rock formation, cover it with a stance etc. But the main thing I have to say here is why on earth would you consider the Wilderness Survival line to be useless? Thats like saying axe warriors can't do damage. I mean, the best ranger stance in the game sits in Wilderness, as well as probably one of the best pressure skills around. And for those of you who have no idea which skills I'm talking about, throw natural stride and apply poison on to your bar and go play a cripshot.
Is it just me or has Troll Unguent been on every top-end Ranger bar since Nightfall? What is there to complain about? It was useful before the buff and even moreso now. — Hyperion` // talk 06:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Previous poster is a guy with his head screwed on right. Troll is among the better self heals in the game.--118.90.40.163 13:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Dervish

  • Avatar of Grenth Avatar of Grenth: duration increased to 10..90 seconds; functionality changed to: "For 10..90 seconds, you cannot be blocked by enchanted foes, and your attacks deal cold damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds."
I don't know how this will affect use, but a shot in the dark can't hurt when it was useless before this. -- Arkhar 03:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
There's a reason why the sineptitude build used Rigor Mortis. It means your TEAM can't be blocked. The old Avatar of Grenth stripped the enchantment meaning the TEAM could not be blocked. I think the point of the Avatar is somewhat made more narrow like Fox's Promise and Warrior's Cunning. Keep in midn this will likely be up around 60/120 or roughly half the time. --Life Infusion «T» 03:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Party-wide unblockability doesn't scream "overpowered" to you? -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 07:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Indeed overpowered. <sarcasm>Isn't it great to have your aegis negates the effect of Ward Against Melee?</sarcasm>Lightblade 08:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
In fairness, if you're under the affects of both, your block rate is frustratingly high enough that I encourage random unblockability. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 08:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
hm this skill is not good enough, it is still lacking something 87.189.214.144 10:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It should add +1...8...10 damage for each enchantment to your attacks. Max 20.--Lou-SaydusHow dare you put that damned dirty thing on me! 18:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Slightly sad that Mo/D farmers are gone in any of the good farming areas (except perhaps hydras), but good update. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 21:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Degen will actually effect E/Ds and such now. -- Arkhar 03:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
not that much though. +9 regen is still good.--Life Infusion «T» 03:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Would rather have seen it become either interruptable or have recharge pushed so removing it actually means something. --Epinephrine 14:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
See, I said a week and it would get 3/4. Prokiller88 22:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
After I said that 1/2 was just nonsense. -- Arkhar 03:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
And it's now one of the abused skill. Derv can spike faster than assassin now. Lightblade 07:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Paragon

  • Mending Refrain Mending Refrain: decreased Energy cost to 5; decreased Health regeneration to 2..3.
Nice. It provides less regeneration at 13+ Motivation, but it's more practical for single Paragons. -- Gordon Ecker 08:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Oooh. --Life Infusion «T» 03:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Finally, a (much needed) buff to Motivation. I salute you Izzy. On behalf of my Paragon. Nicky Silverstar 07:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
If your a para in PvE, don't run this elite, there's a WAY better option. Run this. Its more overpowered than Ursan. — Teh Uber Pwnzer 07:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This is actually a very slight nerf (1 less healing) if you have 16 Motivation. -- Gordon Ecker 08:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
If it were up to me, I'd kick those PvE skills out of the game. They basically made the whole Motivation obsolete...Nicky Silverstar 13:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

then dont PvE.... PvP ftw? 24.141.45.72 00:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ritualist

This is actually better than LoD in it's current state since it heals around 1.5x LoD and is in Restoration Magic (which is better than Healing Prayers save for Dwayna's Kiss, Cure Hex, Word of Healing). --Life Infusion «T» 03:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Still to bad if you consider that monks have 2 party heals on primary attribute and another low recast one on healing prayers while ritus are left with this alone. But i agree that LoD in its current form is to weak. You are better of getting song of restoration on your monk now. Beetlejuice 13:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I say if it is better then keep it better we might even see a main rit healer(doubt it) 76.26.189.65 16:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
That is not true, with Divine Favor added, Light of Deliverance heals for more than Song of Restoration, recharges faster and it doesn't need an additional attribute. So for monks, it really is better. Nicky Silverstar 17:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Added: Light of Deliverance heals for 66 at 14 Healing Prayers vs Song of Restoration's 81 at 12 Motivation. So you need just 5 Divine Favor (16 extra health) for it to be better than Song of Restoration at pure healing. Nicky Silverstar 17:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Devine only targets self...

LoD is garbage... SoR > LoD.. u need to PvP more Imo 24.141.45.72 00:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

General Comments

That Power Leak nerf is weird, the 1 energy necro skills are weird, the extra self-healing on non-monks is cool i guess less reliance on monks and other healers now. 216.218.214.2 21:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I loved this one. Next op, I wanna see some ele skills with 1e cost. Namely, flare.
<sarcasm>Why buff Flare even more? It's imba enough already. </sarcasm> Dragnmn talk cont 16:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree, very nice update. I would've nerfed Power Leak to around 10 @14dom and left Shadow Refuge alone, but what do I know? :) Great thinking with the 1e skills, good to see gw1 is stil important enough to you to introduce interesting new mechanics. 134.130.4.46 21:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Um, wtf. shadow refuge is back to 4 seconds?Prokiller88 23:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Weird is good. You cannot solve new problems with old methods. I think that Izzy may be on to something here. Nicky Silverstar 00:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

suckup. 24.141.45.72 00:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, i like the updates here. --66.45.173.98 17:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
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