User talk:Lilondra/Gamebalance/Elementalist/Archive

First stuff

@ the fire changes. Ranged deep wound?!?! b.r // talk 12:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Tbh, we don't really need to give fire magic any utility, unless we do an attribute wide rebalance to knock down the damage on all the fire-magic skills first. --Riddle 13:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

You know I'm going to reduce +- all caster damage with 25 % if they have no other use then just damage ? Lilondra *gale* 17:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Deep Wound can currently only be done by physical characters i think it should stay that way. Fox007 15:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Same for Cripple Fox007 15:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Lightning Surge make it a elite gale with some damage.

Mind Burn that's just awsome.

Star Burst see Above.

Invoke Lightning see above. Fox007 15:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Tbh I wont follow you're advise here simply because the Idea is spike support without Loads of damage.Lsurge is FUCKING AWESOME right now.If you want an elite gale with damage take mind shock.Star burst might need a change now and yh the New mind burn would be 1 of my favorites :p Lilondra *gale* 16:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

meh

1. your aoe change solves nothing, read my review 2. gief me your msn since i had to make a new 1 and i dont remember urs... - Wuhy 11:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC) cailliau_ian@hotmail.com and how ? Lilondra *poke* 12:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

i think your icy prism would be a little too strong InfestedHydralisk 18:49, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Better now ? buffed version of the current Icy Prism Lilondra *poke* 19:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

yep InfestedHydralisk 19:20, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thx for your help :) Lilondra *poke* 19:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

i like the idea for fire magic, though im thinking that a hit could cause burning already would cause condition stacks (as in burning keeps covering) InfestedHydralisk 19:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Mmmm.Perhaps make the renew less frequent but longer ? Lilondra *poke* 19:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I think I fix'd it =) Lilondra *poke* 20:03, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Also Any other things I need to fix ? Lilondra *poke* 20:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

nice fix, looks fine now InfestedHydralisk 21:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thx again =) Lilondra *poke* 21:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Morphy's magic opinion

Let's see...

• Obsidian Flame: Yes. I don't know what your intention is here.
• Ward Against Melee: I can see this becoming a problem yet again. Even on 1 character, a 16/20 upkeepability is pretty powerful for a skill such as this one.
• Grasping Earth: I assume this is a nerf? Are you trying to kick it out of the game? Weaken it? I can't tell.
• Stone Striker: Looks rather passive, stronger than Conjures because you can still use vampiric. Also targets allies. I think this is a bad idea.
• Crystal Wave and his copy: No opinion.
• Ash Blast: Giving Earth Magic easy acces to Blind is taking away something that differentiates Air Magic from it. It's never a good idea to remove attribute restrictions because giving one attribute too much makes it too powerful. Therefore, bad idea.
• Ebon Hawk: Unnecessary, Anet has already buffed it.
• Sliver Armor: Why? That 5 recharge less won't bring it into use at all.
• Stoning: This is a skill I wouldn't nerf since it isn't that powerful to begin with.
• Magnetic Aura: Interesting. However, if you really want it to be Magnetic I'd let the attacks redirect to you. Otherwise it's too powerful.
• Gust: Why would you ever use this over your Gale which has only a quarter of the recharge? Lack of Exhaustion doesn't make up for that difference at all. I would rather use the current version than this shit.
• Invoke Lightning: Looks like a great Airspike skill to me.
• Windborne Speed: Lol, they already did that :P
• Shell Shock: Barely noticing a difference here.
• Gale: Obviously overpowered. 3 second knockdown on a 5 recharge. That is a dumb idea.
• Lightning Surge: Again, wouldn't use it. It's worse than Gale on midliners and worse than Shock on frontliners. Elite skills are supposed to be powerful.
• Chain Lightning: Why do you want Airspike back anyway? This damage buff just pushes it over the top.
• Lightning Strike: You give them a follow-up as well?
• Lightning Javelin: I'd rather Blind my opponent. Awkward.
• Master of Magic: Hmm, looks rather boring. Can't you make a more fun function?
• Second Wind: Still an awkward skill.

I shall continue this later. Dark Morphon 15:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

All these changes were before the update ? Wich completely destroys your air spike argument imo.Also you would never use gust because you don't grasp the concept of cheer manliness and a ranged knockdown on command with no exhaustion.Its ranged shock with no exhaustion.I don't know if Gale is OP that way I do know that if it isn't its borderline but right now I find it to be rather UP.Also Obsidian flame = 1sec cast spike assist.Don't have time to comment on the rest atm Lilondra *poke* 16:20, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

You buffed Chain Lightning's damage which is indeed a buff to Air Spike. Still, update or not, pure damage skills such as these are dumb. New version of Gust: Still pretty damn awkward, especially in comparison to non-elites. Obsidian Flame: A 1 second activation spike skill is never a good idea, armor ignoring is just too much. This skill is fine on 2 seconds. Concerning wards, I think they are pretty lame in most cases. They just need some more spirit because right now, they're rather boring. I'll continue my other opinions below. Dark Morphon 12:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Believe it or not but you still need pure damage skills to have a viable game.WaM was a skill I loved having around despite being a warrior it only posed a serious threat when nightfall was around ? Also a) Those spells have 2 second airspike and b) Some cause exhaustion. Lilondra *poke* 17:15, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

what if wards could go like: only 1 ward (of the same type) can be up at a time. just like spirits, if the same one is being put up, the older ward just goes away and the new one gets up InfestedHydralisk 18:40, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Yh I still want the reduced duration good Idea though but how do you put it into the description or you just don't ? and I add it to my misc changes ? Lilondra *poke* 19:24, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Infested what is your opinion on my gale/gust changes ? I kinda want gale back into the active game.Still thinking of how to nerf skills like Bsurge though Lilondra *poke* 19:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

you could add something like: Only 1 Ward Name can be active at a time. imo casters shouldnt be able to get a 3 sec KD at first, especially being ranged aswell (thatswhy gale got nerfed in the first place). you could try a conditonal 3 sec KD though but i'd put that at gust. i dont think gale should really be changed. for gust you could try if target foe was moving/attacking/casting (or w/e) it is knocked down for 3 sec. 15r InfestedHydralisk 20:30, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

So Moving Would just be a coward-ish spell ? Lilondra *poke* 07:18, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

currently i cant really think of some change to gust, im just saying i dont like easy-to-get 3 sec KD on casters InfestedHydralisk 15:08, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

• Mind Freeze: This skill is perfectly fine as is. I don't see how nerfing it (however slightly) is a good idea.

> Its not a nerf at all imo Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

You remove damage and make the snare scale, how is that not a nerf? Don't say less exhaustion cause Elementalists are perfectly able to deal witht that. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Shatterstone: Comparing this to Ice Spikes, this is very poor especially considering the elite status.

> Cast time ? Might give it another buff though.Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Better comparison: Shard Storm. Shatterstone looks rather feeble compared to that. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Ice Prison: Uhm, what? That's overpowered.

> Cast time + hex removal Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Ice Prison is a great skill for runners because usually the one you snare doesn't have the resources to remove it. Decreasing the recharge to this level is a very bad idea. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Ice Spikes: Sure, why not.
• Ice Spear: Very awkward.

> Explain Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Ice Spikes: A number buff isn't a bad idea for this skill.

Ice Spear: 20% movement reducal? That's simply put extremely weak. Skills that are cheap and put together a few weak effects are generally very passive and should be avoided because it's extremely aesthetically unpleasing and usually broken on top of that. Might I also add that this skill is in a niche that has already been filled? You should never ever put two skills in the same niche unless they are used differently entirely otherwise the superior skill will always be used while the inferior one will never be, resulting in at least one broken skill. There, two reasons why this skill is awkward. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Mirror of Ice: Uhm, Armor of Mist? I wouldn't use my elite on that.

> I might and its better then having + damage in this game anyway Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

True, but I'd try to make as much fun and original functions as possible. An elite Armor of Mist is simply boring. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Steam: Making this unconditional is the last thing we're waiting for. Bad idea.

> It also is alot less powerfull,Newsflass It already was unconditional Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I really dislike this way of linking people, can you please stop using it? Thanks. This skill isn't unconditional atm because Glyph of Immolation means you are practically using 2 skill slots for a Blind. That's an important downside. Your version of this skill has 3 seconds less blind (which doesn't matter on a spike) and 5 more energy cost (which Elementalists can easily deal with). I personally don't see how this isn't a rather big buff. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Icy Prism: *cough* D-shot *cough*

==> *cough cough* bad Argument *cough cough* Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

What I was saying is if you want to disrupt Resurrection Signet Dshot is better at it and better beyond that function and since you usually run a Ranger anyway you're better off spending your skills on snares than using an extremely niche skill such as Icy Prism. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Double Dragon: Uhm, why?

=> No Idea,needs another revamp Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

• Mind Burn: I'd rather use Immolate for this purpose. The energy denial thing makes no sense, btw. Too weak of an effect to have any impact whatsoever.

=> Because Immolate drains energy Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. 5 energy is massive. That's totally worth it spending your elite on. Get real please. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Star Burst: Immolate projectile with AoE burning. Wouldn't use that.

=> Moar pressure + energy cost ? Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Ugh. Since Immolate has 5 recharge, people won't spam it as much anymore. Blows up the energy problem, which wasn't much of an issue anyway. The AoE burning is not something you spend your elite on especially since Fire Magic is perfectly capable of spreading burrning without it anyway. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Searing Flames: This skill faces two problems: 1) the Burning alone isn't enough to spend your elite skill on, 2) counterproductive with other Fire Magic skills which already inflict the condition.

=> Massive AoE Burning wich you can spam might be worth it,Like I said a) going to buff it slightly b) better then current version Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Better as in less mindless? No. Better as in not overpowered? Yes. However, that "not overpowered"-ness has been replaced by an "underpowered" tag. I'd say that's still pretty bad.

• Meteor: Interesting. Pushing it somewhat more into utility.
• Flare: Nerfing Flare must be the most ridiculous change on this page. Allow me to explain. You get Flare plus 10 damage on 5 recharge. That's a lot less DPS than it does now. Also, that energy gain is way too minimal to try getting. Simply not worth it.

=> Stop acting like a idiot.Flare is bad and has always been bad because it had low damage and spamming it is useless.Having 0recharge is only good when it has a broken effect.In this case the recharge is not a nerf since I expect you're going to use other spells inbetween Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me? Don't call names. Your Flare is still bad (and worse) because it's totally outclassed by Immolate in every single way when used as a single blow every 5 seconds (which it is). The energy gain is worthless, people can manage using Immolate on recharge anyway. I see no reason at all why anyone would want to use this skill. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Immolate: Fair enough nerf. This skill is too spammable.
• Liquid Flame: Yeah, needed a nerf.
• The Heats and Fire Storm: Just because they are somewhat weaker now does not mean they are any less stupid. That's what you need to fix.

Then I need to remove the fact that they are AoE,AoE is part of the game I don't think I should change that Lilondra *poke* 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

No, you have to think up a way that forces people to think about using it. Punish bad use. Dark Morphon 09:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Overall, meh changes, but then again, Elementalists are hard to balance. Dark Morphon 13:20, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll also tell you how I think these changes (when not taking in consideration other profession changes) would affect the (meta)game: Earth Magic will mostly be used the same way as it is now (as in, you didn't kick out Grasping Earth, however I foresee the return of Ward Against Melee and (in Enchantment metas) the usage of Stone Striker. Stone Striker will be used instead of Conjures, making it possible to also use a Vampiric mod and Ward Against Melee is just a skill that looks like it is very useful (=overpowered) again. I personally don't think people will run the other skills you buffed. Moving on. Gust and Lightning Surge are unlikely to be used since other skills (Mind Shock in particular) simply do the job better even considering the 3 second KD. Actually, you made Lsurge KD 2 seconds, I don't think that will ever be used at all. Since you increased the effectiveness of Air Magic damage skills, I expect to see more Air Spikey bars again. Blinding Surge, with its added high damage, will still be a staple skill. Your change to Ether Prism will likely kick ele runners out of the meta and Ritualists will probably do that job again. You haven't really changed much to Water Magic except for Mirror of Ice and the removal of FC's effect on it. I expect Icy Shackles to take its place. Fire Magic finally, I think people will still take the two heats because they still can pretty much cover the entire map in fire, they just don't stack anymore. The usage of Mind Blast is something somewhat harder because it still provides the user with plenty of energy. Still, Immolate cant be spammed as much anymore which is of course a good change. Double Dragon may be used as a run skill or something like that, again I can't tell for sure. Searing Flames will never be used, neither will Star Burst. I think the elite of choice for Fire Magic elementalists will become Savannah Heat instead of one of the other Heats or Mind Blast for general energy purposes. That is all. Dark Morphon 13:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Earth Magic

Why do you think it needs a drastic change? 145.94.74.23 08:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I think because Earth Magic is pretty passive. Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Damage wise, Earth can totally compete with Fire. It is pretty potent as a damage dealing attribute. It just happens to have some defensive skills as well. 145.94.74.23 22:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

What is this balance page ? How I would change guildwars.Nothing else :).This means I'll pretty much change everything.I want elementalists to requires positioning and help in spikes trough utility Lilondra *Poke* 15:29, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

update

31/01/09 added green numbers Lilondra *Poke* 14:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Opinion

I think you are making some non-elegant changes here, Star Burst for example is really something that is out of it's league as you are making it. To be honest I think we should try to preserve what a class can do, maybe add some changes to it but definitely not give it weird things that don't make sense. Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps You"re right I already got a idea for Star burst Lilondra *Poke* 15:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, RtL is fucking broken if they make it like that. Infinite mobility for Elementalists? Nty. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Exept you're teleporting into their lines and putting a huge neon sign onto the map Lilondra *Poke* 15:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Might change those skills though check out the necro one ive invested far more time in that one recently Lilondra *Poke* 15:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

When ganking no1 cares about being in frontlines since there aren't any. Dark Morphon(contribs) 17:56, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

mmm True Will weaken it a bit :) Lilondra *Poke* 19:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

:/

:\ -Auron 14:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

thx for the helpfull feedback (pls explain why the :/ Lilondra *Poke* 14:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Every single skill entry makes me :/ -Auron 16:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

because ... Lilondra *Poke* 16:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

A brief comment from an anonymous person: skill that damages allies = griefing. --203.206.119.62 17:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Thats a problem with the user really :/ but yh might have to change Lilondra *Poke* 17:59, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Blinding Surge... o m g, ok no damage but thats stupidly easy blind, 1/4 cast... nearby range 5 energy zzzzz, also most of the fire magic updates are pretty bad, leave the skills that are balanced (like Savannah and Rodgorts) and tbh making it effect allies is really dumb too... 90.208.74.136 19:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

savvannah balanced ? I agree with Bsurge though Lilondra *Poke* 08:35, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

new review

Air Magic

• Blinding Surge why this above the current one besides a few number changes.

=> absolutely none will remove Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Invoke Lightning Remove the Cripple and the knockdown, add some damage.

=> that is other functionality but since this is my worst balance point taken Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Windborne Speed keep the recharge or else this will become to spammable.

=> damn you point taken Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Shell Shock Upper the damage a bit.

=> yh Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Lightning Surge Add damage and exhaustion making it a elite Gale

=> The Idea is to indirectly spike assist by knocking down the prot monk ;) or to use as a snare on frozen isle :x Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Water Magic

• Mind Freeze this will impossible because the current game mechanics don't allow it

=> I dont care.Its awesome Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Shatterstone give it a other effect so it does not recharge your skills or those of your opponent. Maybe make it like the axe line they are all the same with a few different conditions. in other words. Give all elites a snare condition + something else. harder snare if enchanted foe. dmg + snare stuff like that.

=> Point taken Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Fire Magic

• Double Dragon no, something usefull + negative effect on allies is always bad.

=> PT Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Mind Burn non AoE Searing Flames with a heavier drawback.

=> I like this functionality Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Star Burst Upper the damage to 75 / 90 or something 60 is pretty low for fire magic.

=> The Idea is to *reduce* pew pew power Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Searing Flames just burning (though it being strong pressure this spammable) but won't be good because all spike ability of the fire magic is getting removed by all these skill changes.

=> Wich is the Idea.Less damage more utility GO Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Meteor FC Fire nukers are becomming real.

=> This change has already been made.Idea is to kinda make all primary attributes that prof only Lilondra *panda* 11:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll do the rest later Fox007 22:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Review

• Blinding Surge-More utility and less damage. Good.
• Invoke Lightning-is worse than your Lightning Surge.

=> point taken,My ele balance is by far the worst rly feel free to help me out :) Lilondra *panda* 07:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Windborne Speed-Now it actually will see some meaningful use. Perhaps decrease energy to 5 as well

=> I want to keep it on eles only ;).Indirect buff to ether prodigy Lilondra *panda* 07:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Shell Shock-Would devalue Enervating Charge. Decrease recharge form current functionality by 2 seconds but that's all.

=> mmm Lilondra *panda* 07:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Lightning Surge-No attribute skills are bad for the game. I can see warriors using this with a stonefist insignia. Get 4 stonefist warriors using this and good luck with game balance. This will result in people using it as a free knockdown linked to no attribute. Add "50% failure with Air Magic 7 or less".

=> good idea Lilondra *panda* 07:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Mind Freeze-Not bad
• Shatterstone-That functionality is useless and could cause the same problems as Wail of Doom.

• Double Dragon-Just because one Fire elite is broken does not mean that the attribute should be nerfed into the trash.

=> Lol more utility and pressure less spike skills in fire magic is the Idea Lilondra *panda* 07:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Mind Burn-Does not need exhaustion. Exhaustion is for regulating the power of non-elite knockdowns and shutdown skills. You do not balance pure damage by adding exhaustion.
• Star Burst-Finally an intelligent change to the fire elites. I'd actually use this.
• Searing Flames-Good riddance to a skill that's been begging for a nerf for 3 years.
• Meteor-If you removed the exhaustion, recharge needs to be 30 seconds.

Shell Shock and Double Dragon

Shell Shock will be confusing to people IMO because of the name DD damaging allies is funny but think of all the griefers who would be using it to annoy others! QQ --Super Igor flame my shove sin bar! 09:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Changed both anyway :) Lilondra *panda* 14:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Damage exorcism

It seems you are trying to take away any damage that Elementalists have, or you seem to do so on the updates you do. That's not really necessary. Damage on an Elementalist isn't per definition bad, it just has to be lower than that of frontliners. Dark Morphon 11:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC) I know Lilondra *panda* 17:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Double Dragon

I don't think an enchantment version of Sprint + Conjure is a good idea, especially if it can stack with the latter. Dark Morphon 11:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

It cant physical damage is required Lilondra *panda* 17:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Heh

Seems the return of Airspike is imminent with your changes! Xhata 12:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

2 second cast air spike yes.Lilondra *panda* 15:12, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

yoo

I tweaked a bit here and there(lol mindfreeze) and corrected some grammar errors... also i dont think it should fail under 5 estorage, to limit mesmers, its a much simpler and more efficient way to make FC only affect mesmer skills overall... - Wuhy 86.101.134.142 22:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Only thing I kept is my mindfreeze where I increased recharge instead of reducing duration.And TBH I will limit all primary attributes like this said never rly have made a page for it.But I already talked to DM about it.Lilondra *panda* 04:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

sup

lightning surge' energy cost is way too low for its unconditional KD. shatterstone's energy cost is too low aswell and i'd keep meteor's recharge at 30 though. gale is fine at 10, the point that it got a 10e cost was because wars were able to KD foes for 3 sec at range InfestedHydralisk 21:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually because everyone was able to do that.I still run galelock on my warrior only £I need a focus now :x (wich means 9 air yes).Also will change Lilondra *panda* 05:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Flare

is imba. But I agree with pretty much everything else on this balance page. Mediggo 12:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Got any Idea to keep the functionality but mod a bit ? The most important thing is the idea not the numbers Lilondra *panda* 14:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Spell. Projectile: deals 20...56...65 fire damage and inflicts burning condition (3...5...5 seconds) if target foe is hexed with Elemental hex. lol Earthen Shackles.

Maybe leave Flare as it is atm, but add slight fire damage to foes adjacent to target? Mediggo 07:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Good Idea for pve but I like this version perhaps change damage a bit though Lilondra *panda* 08:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)