ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/Palm Strike

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Drasu's Issue

"Firstly, the fact that Palm Strike is a "skill" instead of an "attack skill" means that as you cast it, your target is able to use whatever the cast time is on palm strike to kite from you."

Enemies have 0.5 to 1.75 seconds to kite whenever you attack them with a regular attack skill, how is this any different? -- Gordon Ecker 03:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The aftercast on palm strike affects movement afterwards as well, versus there being none on an attack skill. Thus, in the end your enemy is able to gain about 1.5 seconds of distance on you before you can chase after them with PS. Try it yourself with the master of Survival at the Isle of the Nameless- you'll see what I mean. I should have clarified that earlier. 76.10.152.39 03:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not Gordon, try it with an attack skill, your character continually follows the kiter and doesn't stop, you character even moves during the attack animation if necessary. With a skill, your character stops to cast, and cannot move until the aftercast is over. Incidentally this is another reason why touchers fail so much, simple kiting reduces the damage a lot further than it would a melee character, because whenever they "touch" you, they stop for 3/4 sec, and are still stationary for the aftercast. --Lytel 03:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, it's been a while since I've played a melee character, and I was under the impression that attacking characters always stand still because ranged attackers stand still while attacking and melee attackers will not move while attacking a moving target if the target is moving around them rather than away from them (this can be observed on Isle of the Nameless against the Master of Enchantment and Master of Healing). -- Gordon Ecker 04:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks that damage should stay the same? Perhaps a 3 second cripple, or one just long enough to cover the aftercast? That way, they'd be in range, but could kite the rest of the combo unless you do something to stop it. --Kalas Silvern 08:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

That would be bad, b/c they would just use Trampling Ox immediately afterwards and you have a KD to start a great chain. ~~ frvwfr2 (talk · contributions) 22:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant a cripple long enough to keep them in range during the aftercast. I never meant to have it used with trampling, sorry if it seemed that way. Maybe a non-cripple snare to keep them in range for the duration of the aftercast? That's what I was aiming for. --Kalas Silvern 04:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Post 12/11/2008 Discussion

Looks like another 25e 90 second recharge is in order. --Ulterion 13:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Or take away the cripple so that it forces the assassin to use less viable attack skills and is a sitting duck if his less-viable attack chain fails anyway. Make assassins suck again, pls kthnxbai.

Better yet, change it to cost 25e, recharge 90 seconds and if the next attack skill fails, assassin takes 999 damage and all ressurection attempts fail. It'd be more balanced that way. --Ulterion

palm strike

is fucking retarded. do something. --Cursed Angel 15:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, as a monk, you've got a LOT of time to cast guardian / dismiss before the actual dagger attack hits, which renders the chain pretty useless. Imho. — Why 16:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

You don't do HB much, do you? It is totally stacked ATM. In the AT today, 6 out of the 7 people that I faced were A/W with this ridiculously overpowered elite. I did horribly in this AT, not suprisinglyJonas 22:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know there were still people doing HB at all... seriously, skill balance updates shouldn't be based on HB, which is nothing but a total mess and not even remotely compareable to any other GW PvP format..--Makku 08:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The point is not that it is completely overpowered in RA, TA, and HB. It's too buffed right now. Do you realize that a 4 Sec offhand + hella long crip = hell for monks? Trampling Ox + Palm strike = damage. Monks die because of this shitty elite. I think we should make it like 6 Second Rech, 10 En, Dagger Attack, and a 4 second cripple. That way, the crip is not permanent and you can't reapply it so fast. Also, the extra 5 en needed will make sins spike less :O24.16.114.88 15:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

lrn2stancesm8.--128.211.248.24 17:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

ermm.. there are a lot of elite skills (and even non-elite ones) that make monks die... wanna nerf Eviscerate, Magehunter's, Magebane, Power Block, Wail of Doom, Shock, Bull's Strike, Gale, [insert list of random skills here] and everything else that could possibly kill a monk? That list is gonna get pretty long.. maybe just tweak Divine Favor instead and give monks a damage reduction of 10 points per rank in DF to make their life easier? Well, maybe just learn how to use Dismiss/Mending Touch and bring some gayass blocking stances + Shield Bash...--Makku 17:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

This skill is not that overpowered. Sure it's alot of damage with a 4 second recharge, but isn't that SB bait? Also, kiting this is easy, and sheild bash will own the chain. I've been a very concered assasin player after the updates, and i think this update was needed, along with the wasteful's collasp one. If this was made an attack skill, it would only be a buff. If the damage was reduced to around 59, monking would be even harder. The damage is perfect where it is, you need enough enchantment removal and anti-blocking in your team to make this spike work against a decent monk. If your constantly losing to this in hb, run the woh shield bash hero, and micro shield bash. The only problem with this skill is it may be abused on flaggers in gvg, which i have not seen since other skills work better at the moment, so it is fine.--The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.57.95.54 (talk).

If this was made an attack skill, it would only be a buff.

Whoops. Forgot about that part. Fixed my suggestion so it only does a specific amount of damage--dshot style! I tried proposing something similar to cripshot, unblockable but still susceptible to some forms of melee hate. --Riddle 02:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above, this skill is too powerful. Today I entered alliance battles, 1/2 of every enemy team I encountered were assassins, 1 assassin completely overpowered 1 monk, any armor used during the matches meant absolutely nothing. The fast cast + 4 second recharge over dominates any condition removal skill on any class.Soulblade Enforcer

So I entered Alliance Battles one of these days and half the enemy team were elementalists! They nuked our shrines in a matter of seconds (even with my imba overpowered Palm Strike build I'm nowhere near that killing speed!!!)!! I didn't know Fire Magic was THAT powerful, please do something about this!!! </whine>--Makku 08:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

(Reset Indent) Glad to see you understand the situation, both this and Fire Magic need heavy nerfs. (I understand the above was sarcasm, but it was true, tbh) Mr.Hobo 03:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Ezekial, the only thing with your update is that being an attack skill it would actually better (see the discussion on kiting above) except against blind, blurred vision and hexes like empathy. OK, overall it would probably be slightly worse (which is good) but in some situations it would actually be stronger and we don't really need that. P.S. You could just make it an off-hand attack with no requirements rather than a melee attack which counts as an off-hand. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.230.217 (talk).

Is it better in some situations because of the chance to crit? --Riddle 20:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

It's better in some situations because when using attack skills your character will follow your target even within the attack animation. When using touch skills, your character will remain standing for the duration of the skill + aftercast (your target will be able to bring some distance between him and you while you are casting Palm Strike - giving you're backline a lot more time to catch a spike, that wouldn't be possible if it was an attack skill). Furthermore, turning it into an attack skill will remove aftercast, allowing quicker chains. --Makku 00:02, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Pl0x nerf. I really think that anyone should be able to see what's wrong with this. It's... just way too powerful... unblockable, armor-ignoring damage and cripple every 4 seconds; plus, it's an off-hand attack, allowing you to jump right into a chain with trampling ox and whatnot... increase recharge to 8 seconds, make it an attack skill, and lower the damage a bit please, because this is destroying RA, TA, AB, and HB. When I'm an assassin, I love the skill, but as any other profession, it makes it impossible to counter.-- Gah 18:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gah, the chain is spammed over a very short duration, making it unstoppable. Dagger mastery maxed out with runes makes plam strike 90 armor ignoring damage, spammable in 4 seconds alongside fast cast. And yes, see it as whining or what not, but that's my opinion with...ahem.."proper reasoning" and non-directed personal attacks. Soulblade Enforcer

palm strike pretty good buff but

great buff, bout gosh dang time sins could kill again with a safer chain with room for utility skills. really sucks when your whole bar is attacks or offense easy ruined by an interupt or block and you can not retreat to recover. im sure a nerf will come from over usage and lack of diversity vice complaints about being killed by it...cause, um thats why sins were created to kill single targets, not just "hurt" them. hopefully a reasonable balance like an 8 sec rechrge, slight decrease in cripple(like 8 secs) to make it comparable to gg sin but give the sin room for class choice(secondary) and utility skills and slowing down the ripple rate, without completely killing the skill. i dont know what will happen, im just making a statement about my opinion 192.156.33.34 05:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

what most people seem to miss is that Palm Strike currently is so overused NOT because it's horribly overpowered, but because it's like the only useful sin elite out there. If you take a look at the more successful pre-buff sin builds, most of them weren't using sin elites at all (the most popular builds probably beeing centered around "Coward!", Backbreaker and "You're All Alone!", which are all warrior elites, with a few Grenth's Grasp sins and SoJ assa-casters running around). Ofc Palm Strike is a pretty strong skill now, but elite skills are supposed to be powerful, that's the damn reason they are called ELITE skills. The new Palm Strike is exacly what sins needed to maybe see a comeback in top-notch GvG, because it offers the opportunity to actually do something useful while your skills are recharging. A Warrior frenzying in the enemy midline is a freakin DPS-machine, even without using attack skills at all. Daggers on auto-attack deal like zero damage, so sins need to make up for their lack of armor and auto-attack damage with fast recharging, versatile skills that may be used while their attack skills are recharging. That's exactly what Palm Strike is good for, and imo it's perfectly balanced (considering it has a 3/4 activation time + aftercast it's nowhere near the spiking potential of a BB sin). A Warrior on auto-attack and a sin spamming Palm Strike on recharge will probably be pretty equal DPS-wise. Ya, the sin will also spam cripple that way, but has to deal with her tiny armor to achieve that (if an enemy warrior wreaks havoc on your team you throw all kinds of melee hate on him and hope to shut him down that way. If a sin is getting on your nerves you call her out and spike her down-- problem solved.)--Makku 00:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I hardly see 90 armor ignoring, crippling, off-hand attack + 4 sec recharge as being balanced to a tank on auto-attack? The tank's armor means nothing and attacks at a slower rate due to adrenaline. Soulblade Enforcer

I don't wanna get offending or anything, but you should learn the basics of Guild Wars PvP before trying to balance skills (or complaining about certain skills and screaming for a nerf). First of all, Palm Strike is linked to Critical Strikes, not Dagger Mastery. That's why it's actually 75 armor ignoring damage, not 90 (everyone runs crits 12+1 to catch the 3e per critical hit breakpoint, anything above that is just a waste of precious max health). Even if it was linked to Dagger Mastery, it would still hit for only 80 damage (12+1+1), because you really don't want to sacrifice 75 max health on a 70 AL char to get a lousy +2 points of damage on your dagger attack skills. That brings us to the next point: The tank's armor means nothing. Armor is like the MOST important thing in GW for melee classes. All your wtfdomage won't do you any good if you die while engaging a target, right? Melee characters have to suck up a LOT of damage because usually they will operate within attack range of the whole opposing team. That's the reason why Warriors are still the #1 melee class: They have the fattest armor amongst all melee classes making them the most durable melees possible. If armor wasn't important everyone would run Dervishes for crazy AoE damage, three-swing instagib spikes and maintaining a covered Deep Wound on the entire enemy team, but that's a different story. Now all that blabla doesn't really say anythin about Palm Strike, but for a good reason: When balancing skills, you gotta take a look at the whole picture. Looking at a specific skill and going like "oh wow, 4 sec recharge 75dmg cripple is to much" isn't really the best idea. Examine what other builds are capable of, and compare that to Palm Strike. Believe it or not, but an Axe Warrior frenzy wailing on a 60 AL target will easily outdamage a 75 dmg 4 sec recharge skill any given day. And that's without using attack skills.. once adrenaline is charged things will get really ugly. If that isn't enough take a look at Warrior's Endurance. Put that on a Axe and spam Power Attack + Protector's Strike and you'll easily hit in the 100's (per hit) if you manage to smash a kiting foe in the back. On 3 second recharge btw. So to sum things up: A Warrior on auto-attack does at least as much DPS as a sin running around spamming Palm Strike while her attack skills are recharging. The sin will spam cripple that way (which puts more pressure on the enemy team), but has a much lower armor and will thus drain significantly more of your monks blue bars to stay alive (which puts more pressure on your own team). When attack skills are recharged/adrenaline charged both are a serious threat: the sin has the potential to solo-spike an unprotted target, but is easily countered by blocking/interrupts and what not, while the warrior is much more flexible since a single interrupt or block won't screw up his entire attack chain. How is that not balanced? And how is that now proper reasoning?--Makku 01:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

The rest of the sin's skills being weak is not an excuse for having an awfully epically overpowered skill such as this one tbh. Dark Morphon(contribs) 10:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I totally disagree with Makku. You've mentioned such as SoJ sin , or YAA sin or what else. Why sins always use sec.prof elite? It's not because their elite underpowered. Because too many stupid overpowered combo doesnt require sin elite. Dancing daggers>Entangle asp>Signet of Toxic Impact is the best example, this 15 en combo made 200dmg+KD+posion. There's no any elite needed, so they choose SoJ for bonus KD, it becomes the ONLY TRIPLE KNOCKDOWN build in GW. Sins dont use their own elite because some regular skills works like elite. So what they should do is nerf those gimmicky elite-like normal skills. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:61.65.70.49 (talk).

awfully epically overpwered? the whole spike takes 8 seconds to recharge(at least) comparable to grenth grasp sin. its touched ranged, has aftercast. shield bash, balanced stance + condition removal can counter this(meaning the dual attack following it) cant assassins have some ongoing damage output in between spikes? sins get dmg over defense, living up to the glass canon description, warrs can rape you on auto attack alone, and even if they only brought sever arty and gash they can be devastating. the suprise shadow step is still 30 secs soeven if thy get the jump on one, did yo actually let them live to get off another spike? if they cant shadwostep, why didn't you call for the spike of an approaching(potentially lethel) sin? a ranger can pin down, crip ect..and poison auto attack, with maybe savage and d shot as his only attacks depeneding on elite, eand still win. some kinda of blocking when you see it coming. return(for monks usually) i dont know it may just be me thinking, but a skill rebalance could also mean a bar rebalance, other classes may have to change some skills to adapt to new skills from all other classes. 192.156.33.34 02:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Stop being a retarded troll. Try monking against it and you'll see.Oni 13:04, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Palm strike needs the cripple removed, then it will be balanced. prokiller88 15:14, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Balanced Stance followed by /laugh imo. Asuka 15:50, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

But before that the necro hexes you with MoI and laugh changes to /cry. Izzy ftw.Oni 14:52, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

And after that your monk removes MoI, or better yet, pre-veiled. /cry once again turns to /laugh. 66.75.136.251 22:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The point is that the cripple from this can lead to dual KD chains (i.e. PS -> Trampling -> Falling -> Horns) or at least OP dual dual chains (did that make sense?) with Trampling Ox which weren't possibly before. That makes the whole chain a lot stronger, as well as making this skill stronger itself. The armour-ignoring damage, fast recharge, ability to get right into a dual attack and the cripple make this pretty powerful, but even so it wouldn't be so bad if you couldn't follow right up with a reliable KD (before you could use Horns but it dealt less damage and was unreliable 'cos of the conditional). It needs to lose the cripple or be re-balanced to take it (read: nerfed).

P.S. To say "take Balanced Stance" is completely the wrong mentality; just because there is a counter doesn't mean something is balanced (only if there are many, widespread counters). If everyone was forced to take counters to every specific build on every bar we'ld all be in a right mess and it hardly encourages diversity of monk builds, does it? If you don't take something anti-KD, it should make things harder should you run into KDs, but it shouldn't equal instant death. That's NOT balanced. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.26.53.153 (talk).

Problem with touch skills in general

I have noticed throughout my years that it seems touch skills are a miss. I am rather confused on how you can blind a target, and they miss a large majority of the time, yet they can still use a touch skill and find you. So basically you are only blind if you have weapons? Seems a bit odd to me. I would think blind would mean you could not find a target if they were in front of you, so how can you touch them? I just feel something is amiss, when blind causes attack skills to me, attacks to miss, but not a touching attack skill. I suggest you put maybe an 80% chance to fail on touch skills that target other foe, if the user is blinded. I just cannot see how someone can be blinded and miss with all of their attacks, but they can still reach out and touch some body.

I think even a touch skill should trigger prot skills or weapon spells. For example Shadow weapon. Then it will become a defence against this really over the top elite.

Seriously what do you want more? You can hit with blind on, armor ignoring damage AND cause a condition with NO draw back. Demonic Cobra

Touch skills should simply count as melee attacks. It's that simple. --Jette 20:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

...Or have a lot more Counters than just Diverting and CTT --ilr 08:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Ulterion's issue:

Congratulations! I'm really happy to find you making good suggestions. Keep up this good work. Boro 13:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

His suggestions are terrible, hopefully you were joking.Pika Fan 13:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually his previous suggestion was quite feasible. He changed it (he doesn't know what balance<notserious> censored word I can't mention on linsey's talk page </notserious> means) Boro 19:45, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Completely New Idea

Maybe if we switched Palm Strike to something that did 5...60 damage, and cripple if target foe is NOT enchanted or hexed. This would make it a lot weaker in HB (Rigor Mortis, Barbs, etc), RA (Mesmers, Necs, Monks [which usually have enchants], Eles [Attunes], Dervishes [Mysticism + Ench = Profit], and TA, [Monks have enchants and frontliners with SoH = cool]. If we made the cripple very conditional, it would discourage the use of random sins running around without knowing what they are doing. And maybe this could be a PvE/PvP split because no one really cares about OP and Imba skills in PvE [SY, Imbagons, CoP, RoJ, etc]. Hope this idea works/sparks new ideas. 98.203.197.239 05:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

PS-The Cripple duration stays the same and it remains a touch skill. Maybe even a change to 10 en.98.203.197.239 05:06, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Kinda funny how alot of people around here always say "if we did that"/"maybe we should"/etc.. You guys seem to not get how ANet interaction works. Apart from some theorycrafting, whining and raging WE don't do anything here. Of course we can write down whatever comes to our minds in ANet interaction, but that doesn't mean GW has become some kind of open community mod project where everyone might change skills to make his favorite build more effective or nerf builds that are annoying him/her. Skill balance changes are still Izzy's job, and about 99,9% of our suggestions will be ignored anyways (which is good, because -hands down- most of them are a big pile of shit).--Makku 08:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Go back to bed, you troll. --Jette 09:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

GWW:NPA. Makku's point is legitimate, if off-topic. --71.229.253.172 03:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

WAY TO GO

palm strike @13 now hits under spirit bond. making a chain slightly easier to get off... gfg --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.149.24.114 (talk).

I see. So, you're saying that it's a good idea to start an attack chain on someone who already has spirit bond on them. An interesting viewpoint... --Jette 20:55, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Alot of people (in fact, all smart people) use palm strike mid-chain to fuel their third dual attack instead of a second falling attack, it's like palm strike→trampling→falling→twisting/horns→palm strike→twisting/death blossom/nine tail strike/whatever. So before the 'nerf' that 75dmg on the second palm strike triggered spirit bond, now it's a guaranteed 58dmg. That's what happens when ANet listens to casual players: the skill was fine before; now it's spirit bond proof and the reduced crippling duration barely touched it in decent PvP, cause an uncovered cripple is one of the conditions that gets removed asap anyways and stacking the PS sin typical conditions (crip, poison, bleed, dw) just screams for lolrc'dlol. Situations where the pre-'nerf' cripple lasted it's full duration or led to a kill based on the long cripple duration are really, really rare, so thx ANet for making my favorite sin elite laugh at sb without any drawback ;)--Makku 13:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If your skills hit under spirit bond, you are wasting time worrying about something that doesn't affect you.Pika Fan 13:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Revelation's Issue

Hello, I'd just like to point out (although it's likely you are aware) that the META of PvP at the moment has been completely messed up by the changes to this skill, all assassins seem to be running palm strike, even after the skill change on the 8th (which made little to no difference whatsoever to it's effectiveness or use) - please realise that it's not the damage or the cripple that makes this overpowered, it's the fact that it's an offhand attack that has no pre-requisites that has a 4 second recharge, the fact that it does armour ignoring damage AND adds a condition, just makes this even more powerful. I say lengthen the recharge to 15 seconds, and change the cripple to a knockdown (which is what I would imagine an "iron palm" to do, damage & KD.) Revelation talk 08:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Concise Diagnostic of what's wrong here

• Relatively high damage (still) for a lead attack, damage right under SB trigger adds to the problem (after last change).
• Leads into a choice of up to 3 (usually) dual attacks. Twisting Fangs to spike down low targets, Trampling to KD, Death Blossom or Blades of Steel for pressure. Or all three as one incredibly punishing chain with two or three PS hits, right up there with pre-nerf BB sin minus all the downsides of the BB bar.
• Leading into Trampling or Horns, it reduces the effectiveness of WoW and Guardian for anti-kd to 25% since one hit triggers kd and PS cannot be blocked.

This skill is still way over the top for spiking and pressuring with energy attacks. I really do want to see a viable sin build for HA and GvG and am glad Izzy tried to do it, but this is clearly not the way.Oxycanta 02:50, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Even someone mentally handicapped could figure out the problem

The problem is not the recharge. Moebius Strike has 2 second recharge(well, it can be blocked or miss but the recharge is half of Palm Strike's) and doesn't cause problems. Why? because it doesn't cause a guaranteed knockdown after 1/2...1/2...1/2 seconds (Attribute: Test your own game Anet).

The problem is the crippled condition that can't be blocked, dodged, or avoided except perhaps by dshotting it. It's almost guaranteed to be followed by Trampling Ox for knockdowns every 8 seconds. Condition removal doesn't work well against it unless you use Life Sheath or time the condition removal carefully. Simple solution to a simple problem-change the crippled condition to weakness. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:72.71.232.219 (talk).

Hi, take out the cripple, and it's still a 5e guaranteed, instant off-hand (which leads into a dual) on a 4 sec recharge. Meaning, without the cripple, people will still fit 2 or 3 dual attacks so they can just start the chain over with PS. --Riddle 20:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Shard's issue

Obviously by this suggestion you want it to go the way of the dinosaurs. A one-second cast time is just lazy and takes no skill to interrupt and the 20 second recharge time is crap because the damage over a 20 second interval is junk and the cripple would be removed withins miliseconds of it's cast. /notsigned. It'd become crap all over again. Are we trying to take a step foward, then ten steps back? --Ulterion 03:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed.

5 ¾ 6 would be better, increase damage to 10...70...85, remove the crippled condition so that people can't just blindly use trampling ox.

Even with 3/4 sec cast, this skill would still be useless w/o cripple. 3/4 sec cast + 3/4 aftercast = idiotic. Essentially making it too slow for any decent spike, AND essentially letting target to run away. Why do you think nobody ever used it (despite numerous buffs) before cripple was added in - too much to lose and too little gain for an elite.

No cripple, no trampling ox, no palm strike usage (ever). Bad idea. --Ulterion 16:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Just make it 12 seconds recharge... Boro 19:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion would not kill it. A never-misses offhand every 20 seconds w/ cripple + 80 damage is actually really good. ~Shard 08:57, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

This would be still a decent elite without stupid cripple, ok? A touch Off-hand. Those PS sin just refuse to knockdown with other skillful way.And some lazy skill balancer ignore this, made this 8 skillfulless KD everywhere.--140.128.67.248 03:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

What about changing it from off hand skill and making it a lead attack? then it's just like Black Mantis Thrust or Leaping Mantis Sting only it does more dmg and u can skip the conditional for the cripple to give it benefits of being elite. --adrin 04:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

If change to Lead. Then a 0.5 +11...47...56 followed. No matter how much we discuss here, Anet doesnt care.--紅茶喵._. 05:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)