Feedback talk:User/Armond/Warrior PvP

This is interesting, I wonder when it will be finished Talamare 08:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I can copy edit your shit for you. I've got nothing better to do with my time. Well, actually, I do, but I have a nicotine addiction, overactive bladder, lazy eye, and ADHD. I can keep my focus for about 15 seconds before needing to find something more entertaining to do. —Jette 08:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

That'd be pretty of you.

Talamare, this article should be done later today or tonight. I'm anticipating 3-5 days for each of the other articles, depending on things like homework and Fire Emblem 10.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 17:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Itd be pretty funny if they have a "Month of Armond" where they implement all your changes for a month XD Talamare 17:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

That would be win so much, but I'll be damned if I let them do it without extensive testing. I'm actually fairly nervous that I have and will miss things. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 17:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

RL is taking a bit longer than expected. This should definitely be done by tomorrow night, but I'm shooting for a bunch earlier. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 17:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I think ANet said that they won't change the armour penalty on healsig because it would change a whole bunch of other skills; something like too much effort for too little reward. I like this though. King Neoterikos 04:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Gash's conditional interrupt feels really unreliable. However I think the text you wrote afterwards leads me to believe it's supposed to inflict Weakness if contact is successful. The unconditional deep wound is a much needed addition. Diarm's 1/2 activation should probably be removed, the ability to compress damage into a smaller time frame has been an issue in the past and there is no reason for the skill to retain that speed. I'm not sure why I'd ever take Executioner's Strike over Keen Chop; more damage and always lands a critical for the same adrenaline cost. Crippling Slash needs more compared to Hamstring. The bleed effect isn't too important with Gash being unconditional unless there was some skill synergy that I missed. The spammy nature of a 3 adrenaline Cripple means getting it covered isn't a major concern which is pretty much the only advantage Crippling Slash has over Hamstring. Racthoh 05:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I made my edits, and put some comments in a nice red. I can remove them, if you like. —Jette 05:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, Racthoh. I had indeed considered giving Gash a conditional weakness instead of a conditional interrupt and forgot to re-type the description paragraph appropriately. However, I made the line with the idea of swords basically always being able to put bleeding on something (3A sever, seeking change, 4A cripslash), so I'm not super worried about the interrupt effect. Disarm had a similar problem - I intended for it to be an interrupt, which it's not anymore.

Hamstring... I'm not entirely sure why I made it 3A, that seems silly. Maybe, in a sleep-stricken stupor, I made it 3E and then changed it to adrenaline later? Anyway, it's up to five now, but you're right about cripslash being a little lacking. I'm hesitant to give it +domages, but maybe it needs it. For now, though, I've added conditional knockdown.

Keen vs Executioner's is a fail on my part, thanks for pointing that out.

Jette, copyediting != adding opinions. Also, thanks for the ec.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 05:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Not that i know but... shouldn't DBS have a lower base duration, or higher recharge? You placed it on strenght to "avoid abuse", but 8 recharge and 5 seconds duration with 0 str is still too maintainable for its effect.--Fighterdoken 05:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. I went on autopilot and threw a five in without thinking. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 06:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

And you're going to do this with each class eh? Oh boy... anyway, with Burst of Aggression you made the comment about it being a good IAS for Warrior secondaries but it remains it Strength. Should it be in Tactics or just sit at 6 seconds when on a secondary? The now added knockdown to Crippling Slash is hard to judge, but it looks clear of any abuse with the other changes. I just can't shake the feeling that some kind of adrenaline abuse with one, maybe two of those guys could be an issue. Racthoh 09:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I decided to leave BoA under strength for those few lolable warrior builds that rely entirely upon energy. Now that War's Endurance isn't zomglol energy gain, it shouldn't be a huge issue.

I do agree about the whole "lots of changes = where's the abuse" thing, but theoretically we'd get a few weeks' playtesting before any of this was implemented, which makes me feel a bit better.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 13:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Isnt a 4adren KD a bit much? conditional or not Talamare 14:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

It could well be. This is one of those I'm waffling over. :/ -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 14:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Give us some skill bars with your new skills, as examples. I like most changes, Swordmanship looks rather interesting. Erasculio 16:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Is Magehunter Strike supposed to be energy or adren? --JonTheMon 16:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the KD on Crippling Slash should be okay since it's the Cripple covering the bleeding. A quick look over the skills shows Body Blow as the only means of covering the Cripple as a sword warrior, but the Cracked Armor conditional there could go either way. Racthoh 20:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Sample Bars

Might be a bit much to ask but on your sample bars can you add what the skills do afterward, for example your first bar

Triple Chop

Body Blow

Keen Chop

Bull's Strike

Shock

Frenzy

Rush

Resurrection Signet

• Triple Chop: 8 Adrenaline1 Activation time3 Recharge time Elite Skill. Attack target foe three times for -60...44...40% damage. Inflicts Bleeding, Weakness, and Deep Wound (5...17...20 seconds). Cannot critically hit.
• Body Blow: 6 Adrenaline1 Activation time Melee Attack. Deals +10...22...25 damage. Inflicts Cracked Armor if target foe has more than 75% health. Removes a shout, chant, or echo if target foe has less than 75% health.
• Keen Chop: 8Adrenaline Axe Attack. Deals +5...13...15 damage. Always results in a critical hit.

Talamare 03:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

zomg. Yes, I can do that, but not right now (probably not tonight). Though if anyone else wants to pick this up (hint hint) it'd be greatly appreciated. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 03:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

How about:

Using mouse overs isn't the prettiest solution, but it works (and yay, sample bars!). Erasculio 03:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Eras, amazing solution that would work really well Talamare 04:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

A Sample Skill bars for you -

Backbreaker

Flurry

Pulverizing Smash

Mighty Blow

Hammer Bash

Enraging Charge

Bull's Strike

Resurrection Signet

• with the extremely cheap backbreaker cost, no one will use dev hammer/earthshaker/magehunter smash anymore... not to mention flurry gives you a free +30~ damage on your chain, and ends itself without needing a cancel like flail

Triple Chop

Body Blow

Agonizing Chop

Shock

Flurry

Conjure Lightning

Bull's Strike

Resurrection Signet

• Taking advantage of triple chops 3 hits to stack conjure lightning and flurry +damage for easy spike

Flourish

Savage Slash

Gash

Knee Cutter

Distracting Strike

Hamstring

Tiger Stance

Resurrection Signet

• Remember, Spamming rupts none stop makes you pro... Tiger stance gives bleed for gash to rupt, flourish recharges savage and dstrike repeatedly and constantly, not to mention provides crap load of adren... just alternate between getting adren from knee cutter and flourish and you will be able to spam all your rupts (gash/savage/dstrike) none stop Talamare 04:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Remember, ag chop doesn't exist (it's not on the list). That slot would probably be Keen/Executioner's. Also, notice that Flurry has a 15 second recharge - meaning you'd be doing little pressure between your chains on the first bar.

I must be doing something wrong if Backbreaker is automatically superior to the other hammer elites. I may end up making more hammer attacks trigger something off weakness to encourage dev hammer a little more (dev hammer + crushing blow > other elite + pulv smash for straight damage, imo).

Not that you had any reason to know this (I was about to add it to my main feedback page, you were too quick), but I'm seriously considering nixing conjures entirely. The only things they've been useful for, historically, are swords with SaMS (which shouldn't need the extra damage output anymore), Dervish Wounding Strike bullshit, and Assassins attempting to get out as many dual strikes as possible. But zomg, triple conjure damage on a spike would be hot.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 04:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

i thought you were still working on the atks, since you only listed like half of the current attacks to the list... a limited amount of choices makes things limited~...... backbreaker is auto better then the rest since its a 4kd for 1 more adren and has some +dmg... 13:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC) weird, i did sign it, oh well 14:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC) Talamare 14:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I kind of hope you are trolling with "Got KD?" Misery 13:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I was bored of thinking up bars/descriptions. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 13:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, you do realise that you can't qknock after the first KD with that bar unless you pre-flail -> Bull's or autoattack instead of using Pulverizing and that having Hammer Bash and Heavy Blow on the same bar is pretty stupid? I seem to remember you raging at me for pages and pages simply because I thought Prot Strike was good over Rush on a hammer bar. Misery 14:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I remember absolutely none of this. I've never run rush on a hammer, iirc. Also, the sample bars get less serious the further down you scroll. I'll fix it later. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 14:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh wait, that was probably Rapta. You were both ragey PvX admins so I probably confused you. Misery 14:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

i always thought you had to be a good player to be able to make intelligent, well thought out changes. this changed my mind.

nah, just kidding bro. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:92.27.181.22 (talk).

Some of your ideas are amazing, and some....well...

Some of your ideas are too complicated. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if a lot of this (including some of the more complicated stuff) were introduced into the game. However, I sincerely doubt that Anet would even consider some of these ideas. The best example is Berserker's Stance. It's just too much. You're a smart guy and you always have great ideas, and because of those two things, I'd love to see some of your ideas implemented in the game.....so, what I'm suggesting is that you find simpler solutions to problem skills or I don't see them happening. (Btw, I love your idea for Decapitate). Karate Jesus 16:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

There are too many changes on this page to hardly figure out how this would "balance" GW. Too many changes to skills that currently see no play and too many changes that drastically change how warrior skills were previously balanced. If these were for a new game, maybe they would be reasonable...VERY maybe. But lets consider this is for a four year old game, and that these changes are made toward probably the best balanced class in GW. Warriors have seen very few significant changes over all of GW (Zergway, WE, Primal, IWAY were some of the few OP bars), but still remain well balanced with probably the largest pool of viable skills in the game. I hate to see all this effort go to waste, but I can pretty much guarantee that none of these changes will even be considered for this game. From a quick glance, you are trying to nerf warrior damage (which I think is a mistake anyway), and the entire shock axe bar is nerfed by what, 8 damage? Nerf to the already never used Dragon Slash and buff to Crip Slash? wut? Changing one of the very few good skills changes in the past years in Whirling Axe to a confusing ias? Ok, but these changes aren't going to happen. Staples 16:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I kinda prefer having a non-elite viable stance removal option for all three weapons. On that note, I think it would be nice if Wild Blow had a conditional loss of adrenaline only if a stance was removed. Racthoh 19:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to point out that it says right at the top not to take these suggestions in a vacuum. Berserker's Stance does seem a little wacky though, I'll admit. —Jette 20:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, given that the other 9 will probably have to be equally as crazy does not look good. Also, I figured the vacuum part was about taking every skill change on this page, or none of them (the obvious choice). Another look, and Warrior's Endurance makes almost zero sense. Knee Cutter is a "good skill", Backbreaker is 8 adrenaline, and Earthshaker gets nerfed. Skills removing weapon spells and shouts. Not only are some of these hard counters, which don't lead to balance or diversity, but these things suggest HUGE changes to the game mechanics, which I'm pretty sure have not been thoroughly thought out. Staples 20:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you read his main feedback page yet? --JonTheMon 20:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and I actually agree with almost all of the bullet points listed on Feedback:User/Armond for ways to balance the game. Most of them I have discussed to some extent with my bros (who also played GW) and guildies. However, I am not sure that these changes accomplish his goal. I also don't think the changes need to be this drastic or crazy to achieve the end goal. Staples 21:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I fully admit that I expect absolutely none of my suggestions to actually make it into the live version of the game (especially as there'd be several hundred skills looking a lot like smiter's boon). I will also say that I've been considering removing the paragon hate from Body Blow in favor of some other form of utility, but I'm not sure what (or if it even needs it). Furthermore, the entire shock axe bar is nerfed by considerably more than 8 damage - please see Feedback:User/Armond/General mechanics changes, suggestion one.

I also freely admit that on occasion I think of a mechanic that is needed and add it in just because I can. This leads to things like Quivering Blade and, on a similar-but-not-quite-the-same case, the ripostes. I tend to cut these when they're overdone - fewer sword skills have weakness, for example, and Charging Strike's "removes a weapon skill" didn't make it past a couple previews - but the result can almost seem (at least from my perspective) like I'm saying "hey, look at me, I'm showing off that I'm not afraid to make major mechanics changes". I think a large part of the reason I do this is because, short Lindsey or someone poking me on MSN, I'm almost positive none of these changes will make it in-game, thus making coding time a nonissue.

@Racthoh: Initially that sounds like a good idea, but I wonder if extra stance removal is necessary (and there's already Power Attack). IMO, target swapping is the best anti-stance skill you'll run across. (The problems begin when no amount of target swapping will do you any good - not to say GW is there currently.)

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 02:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Target swapping rewards skillful playing because unless you know what you're doing/don't suck, you lose a good bit of pressure when you do it. —Jette 03:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

@Armond - Are you implying that Lindsey regularly pokes you for skill changes? Back to the article - one change I would really like to see in GW but have not thought about too much is adding another way for Sword wars to give deep wound. It would help break them away from the typical sever-gash combo, which should give them more options. I like your Quiv blade changes in some ways because of that. The thing I am currently worried about that is that it could open a whole slew of unexplored sword options that could possibly be scary. More thought on that is required but currently am not too worried. I also very much agree with keeping the useful skill count low; probably don't need to 25/90 most though because they generally do that for themselves. -- Staples - talk 14:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no, I was saying that I hoped that ANet would, y'know, try to talk to the community before they enacted changes this huge. As part of the community and the writer of these changes, psychology tells me that if the community were contacted, I would probably be on that list. Also, the main reason I say to kill off useless skills is so we don't have to worry about SoGM-type bugs or "creative use of game mechanics" that no one thought of. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 15:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

ES

Earth Shaker scaling = no. seems dumb imho. DarkMugen 18:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Blowing up 8+ people in HA because if you don't stand on the cap point you automatically lose the map seems dumb imho. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 02:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

That has atleast just as much to do with the objectives of HA being meh or badly designed atleast and not just erf shakur ? Lilondra *poke* 05:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty hax in PvE too. ES + Crude Swing + FGJ = lolololol look at all the monsters. You can't help but feel bad for them, until you remember that they get this skill and then all empathy dissipates. —Jette 07:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Its only maintainable in PvE and only if you are going solo. I dont see a problem to be honest. DarkMugen 11:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Decapitate

10 ½ 10 Same Function. maybe add bleeding in there. DarkMugen 12:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Weapon spells, shouts, chants + echoes.

They can't be removed. just stop plz. they're already pretty weak as they are. DarkMugen 13:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hahahahaha. wut's pvp? Karate Jesus 15:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Player versus player. duh. DarkMugen 15:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It does look a bit weird to see some warrior skills being able to remove weapon spells and shouts/chants, but that's the kind of thing that can't be seen in a vacuum. If nothing in the game could remove those effects with the exception of the few warrior skills described here, then it would be a bit like Build Wars (either bring those very specific counters, or have no way to deal with those skills). I'm rather sure, however, that Armond plans to give more than one profession skills that have useful effects and also remove weapon spells/shouts/chants.

For the records, I don't think an effect has to be removable to be balanced (preparations say "hi"), but the current weapon spells are very imbalanced (either they're overpowered or they're useless). Erasculio 15:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Shouts/weapons/echos are "easily interruptable" (an obvious emote: see Apply Poison) or long duration (again, see Apply Poison/Aggressive Refrain)), have casting times, and long recharges, whereas shouts can't be d-shot (no casting time), or have lol recharges. They aren't weak in the least, lol. Moo Kitty 15:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Soon as I come up with a better effect for Body Blow's above below 75% thing, I'll put that in. (I might just end up removing it and being done with it. :/) Meanwhile, shouts/chants/echos need a counter and this is one place it can go. I'll make it a bit more clear.

And Erasculio has it right - other professions will have ways of removing these four uncounterable mechanics (or at least three; shouts may just be nuked down to pre-Nightfall levels, where warriors used them for minor buffs and not much else). Specifically, weapon spell removal will probably be handled by those currently handling enchantment removal (and qblade split warriors, lol).

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 16:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Elites are supposed to be lol-ovrpwrd. duh. DarkMugen 20:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh! Oh! Me! Pick ME!. NuVII 17:20, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Conditions

← moved to Feedback talk:User/Armond/General mechanics changes

Healing Signet

I rly don't know if healing signet needs a buff.I think it will be fine

• If you nerf OP IMS's.The maps never rly got bigger yet the IMS'es got alot stronger.My point : If it takes 2/3'd of the time to get back to your base ganks are less effective.
• Nerf damage.Nerf damage.Nerf Damage.If selfheal actually succeeds in doing what it should do (be selfsubstaining) this will be fine to use on a split warrior.

Overall Intresting changes but I fear you would bring another wave of powercreep upon Guildwars. Lilondra *poke* 14:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Also I think you underestimate cracked armor.Perhaps this is the right question : Do you want hammer warrior's to be squishy's on spikes ? Lilondra *poke* 05:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Moved it down for comment (since I put my comment in the wrong place) and just to say that you try to fix lots of skills that don't see use because their niche is useless in a powercreeped env tbh most of your changes are imba.(read them through now) Lilondra *poke* 15:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Linkage to other classes

You should link to your other classes, or have a nav box or something. I look forward to reading and following this. StatMan 00:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

There's a breadcrumb at the top of the page back to my main feedback portal, which will have links to the other classes once they're ready. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 15:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• Small doggy starts eating breadcrumbs* DarkMugen 21:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Magehunter Strike

So would it remove all sources of blocking or the most recently applied?--Underwood 22:02, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

ogod. Just one. I assume it'd be easier to code that way anyway, as block chances are multiplicative. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 22:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

More specifically I was thinking of it removing the effect that did the actual blocking, not the most recent one. Which, I guess, would make covered block effects harder to remove and would somewhat randomize which effect was removed, but it's better than "lol, all ur block r belong to us". -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 22:45, 24 September 2009 (UTC)