Talk:Guide to playing as a dervish

Earth Prayers section

The Earth Prayers section was totally blank, so I added a couple quick lines to fill it out. I like Earth Prayers, and checking the skill list this description looks about right.

130 derv

how do u play a 130 derv?64.8.190.50 20:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

try this link http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:D/Mo_130hp_Dervish. -84.68.39.237 14:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Adding organization to these guides

After comparing all of the great ideas in the sections in these Profession guides, I've tried to bring together a single format for all of them to use. The information has not been changed, but in some cases it has been reorganized so that readers will know what to expect across all guides.

Because of this, many guides will have incomplete sections. I believe this is worth it to have the great sections cover all of the guides and have more complete organization.

I’m adding this explanation to all of the guides’ Talk pages so everyone can see it regardless of which guide they see first.--Declan 20:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Overview

How about adding the in-game description? Bolstered by the blessings of the gods, these holy warriors reap the benefits of multiple Enhancements. With a sharpened scythe, the Dervish can unleash a whirlwind of destruction. -84.68.39.237

I don't see any need for that. That description can already be found on the Dervish page, where, as lore, it is more appropriate, in my opinion. It would do nothing to enhance the intent of this article, which is to show a basic layout of how to play a Dervish. -- Xazziri 00:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Secondary Professions

The section about secondary professions is, put bluntly, useless. it just says what professions you can have as a secondary which, surprise surprise, is all of them. It could at least mention the benefits/weaknesses of each profession. Araziel 21:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

But if someone is in the process of doing it then my sincerest apologies :) Araziel 21:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

We need a paragraph on "Best secondary professions" The == Secondary Professions == paragraph is not helpful --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.226.110.141 (talk).

Which profession would that be? -- Gordon Ecker 02:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

For how this is supposed to look like, see Guide to playing as a monk. However, as with all things on a wiki, if noone does add it, it doesn't get added. --Xeeron 11:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I thought it was singular. Anyway, I think that every secondary option should get a mention, if a given secondary is generally a bad idea, we should explain why it's generally a bad idea instead of ignoring it. -- Gordon Ecker 01:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This guide is still a stub keep in mind. — ク Eloc 貢 03:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary! I found the section about secondary professions to be rather helpful (though not too much) it gave me the general idea what to aim for. (I'm working on a D/Mo) Natso 20:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The choice of secondary profession is very subjective, so listing a best is difficult because it's based on play style preferences of each user. I personally run very few non dervish skills (other than the occasional pve only, non profession specific skills) so my secondary is only chosen for specific situations that require it. I agree that listing the possible benefits/weaknesses of each secondary is what is needed so that each player can make up their own mind what will work best for them. -- Wyn 20:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I added a "recommended" next to professions that (imho) benefit dervs best. Seriously, running D/P is stupid unless you HAVE to cuz no one else has enough place on their skill bar for SoC in HA. Ele secondary is still ambiguous, since Conjure really is nice (except in Pve where you have AoHM anyways), but I'm still not sure I'd run a it for a few more DPS when I could be bull striking 3 people at once (btw I'd like to see a screen of that if anyone ever managed it). Please feel free to remove those notes if you think it is best left up to the player, but seriously, some professions have more to offer than others for dervs, and I think it's important to point that out to new players. Ky kekeke 02:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm lost on how to become a Dervish Assassin when in the game choosing your secondary you can't yet I seen someone as one.

You need to have factions and you just need to talk to a profession changer. Thomasuwoo 01:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Dervish healers?

I'm pretty sure they can't compete with monks, and if that is the case, I believe it should be clearly stated in the healers section. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 20:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding speed, they only have "Imbue Health", and most of the time the average heal per skill is 120 which is at WoH level and below HB. They have less strong AoE healing spells but these are by far more energy-efficient. All in all, dervish healers might not be as strong as monks ("can't compete") but do have superior energy management ("beat monks") and better survivability ("do compete"). Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 20:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

They also have a pretty good surprise factor... unlike other dervs healer dervs will avoid combat and kite... because they arnt monks they can go for a while undetected by the opposing team until people catch on where the enemy is getting their heals... MrPaladin talk 16:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I can plug in 1-3 healing skills on my dervish with some efficiency, but it's very situational. I generally only do so in some forms of PvP, often times FA with the turtles and architects.-- anguard 16:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Life Sheath

Guardian

Aura of Stability

Spirit Bond

Holy Veil

Meditation

Imbue Health

Pious Haste

Mysticism 12+1+1, Prot Prayers 12. They make BA prot builds (made that up on the fly), better than a monk bar IMO.~>Sins WDB 20:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

wth is the point of ever having 14 mysticism? Run a major, tbh. Raine - talk 19:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Major hurts imbue and I refuse to run majors or higher in any part of the game except for farming builds. ~>Sins WDB 03:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

15 hits the 5e return breakpoint. --67.240.83.137 03:34, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Innate +25hp counters the drawback from running a major. Free LS/Guardian on yourself is pretty hot tbh. That build needs more Shield of Force imo Ky kekeke 15:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Infinite 33% kite > a block + weakness. The extra 1 energy isn't necessary you already have infinite when enchanting yourself with 4 pips of regen.~>Sins WDB 02:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Alternatively, you could be losing 0 energy when you cast a spell on yourself and keeping your full 4 pips of regen. That's like adding Aura of Restoration (the energy gain clause, anyway) to your mysticism, hardly a trivial matter. :/ Raine - talk 18:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You really need the Major Mysticism for a Derv Healer. Keeping 15 for the 5e kickback is VERY important and you can more that recover the health loss and max your Imbue out with Vital Boon.--IninefingersI 20:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

What bar do you run as a healer? I heard you were really good at it. =P Raine - talk 20:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to post a skill bar on here, but you can see it HERE or a VIDEO HERE. Its a lot different than most derv healers. It works for some, not so well for others. Its primarily a power healing tanker.--IninefingersI 21:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

This guide is so bad.

And we direct newer players here? :/ Raine - talk 19:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Ups, I cringed when i read the PvP section. "Staying alive"?, "Avatar of Dwayna"? lol, I'll volunteer to fix it a bit (if you trust me that is) Ky kekeke 18:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Just try to keep it in a neutral POV when editting. --JonTheMon 18:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Dervishes don't pressure. I mean... they can't pressure. Let me find a quote for you...

k.

"Since dervs came out, they have spiked and only spiked. From teleporting mels dervs to grenth dervs with five attack skills, dervs have always been used to 321remove a character from the game. The buff to wounding strike made that replace mels (since most shitters were too terrible to manage energy with a 25e elite, even though it made you simply invincible), but guess what people did with wounding? 321 wounding mystic, 321 wounding eremites."

Dervishes have never ever ever ever been used in pressure builds except for condi overload (Apply Poison Incendiary Arrows Fevered Dreams Wounding Strike Fragility lameshitway) and EoE (Apply Poison Wounding Strike) - in general play, dervishes are, and have always been, the lolmeleespike class. Raine - talk 19:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine, almost every guide is pretty bad. Mini Me 19:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

But dervs are my pet class, so this is the only one I've looked at. =P Raine - talk 19:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to undo/add to what i wrote, I didn't check the history so I thought it was outdated. But tbh, covered AoE DW spamming is mucho pressure if you ask me, especially in HA. From a PvE perspective, spiking is irrelevant so it didn't make much sense to mention it until the pvp section. Ky kekeke 19:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

tbh, these guides should be split up into PvE roles and PvP roles - many classes (everything extepr paras, tbh) have entirely different roles in each. I don't know if it would be better to split the entire thing into two pages, or to have it broken down (on one page) into "Common", "PvE", and "PvP". Raine - talk 19:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it would be infinitely better to have these guides split. I have a lot more PvE experience, so if it ever happens I'll leave to PvP guide to you haha. Ky kekeke 19:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I already wrote it, tbh. Raine - talk 19:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Eh, why not link that in this guide then, and I write the rest with a pve point of view then? Or you could just add a link with "a more in-depth guide can be found here" at the end of the pvp section. Doubt anyone will mind the language. Ky kekeke 20:09, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You can't link to userspace from mainspace. Raine - talk 20:15, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, I wrote that before Reaper's was updated. Raine - talk 20:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Why would these have to be on different pages? Isn't it enough to have it under Common(?), PvE and PvP titles on a same page? - J.P.Talk 20:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Raine your guide is bad too. DrogoBoffin 20:31, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no? Ky kekeke 20:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

"(on one page)" Raine - talk 20:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

k. Raine - talk 20:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Same page, one page, whatever. - J.P.Talk 20:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The point was, I already said it'd be fine if they were split up on one page. Raine - talk 20:47, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

/slap When do i learn to read? And memorize it XD - J.P.Talk 20:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, cleaned up a bit, still a work in progress, but at least it's an improvement. I'm thinking 3 main sections: 1 sort of introduction/general info, maybe a recommended equipment section, then PvE section and PvP section with subsections covering each line. I'll finish up the PvE section in a bit. Any objections/suggestions? Ky kekeke 21:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Raine - talk 21:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok then I'm gonna delete the "playstyle" section since it's really not needed (there's only 1 play style on a derv and that's hitting things with your scythe, rest is gimmick unless your name is Ninefingers,) EDIT: forgot about running, I'll make a note of it in the PvE section Ky kekeke 21:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

question about D/R

is it usefull to have a pet with ya as a dervish? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Frozen Ice Prince (talk).

Not really, no. — Raine Valen 15:44, 20 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Thursday, February 17, 2011

I don't know if someone is already started but the guide needs an almost complete re-write since the update on Thursday.

I'd also add a notice to the top of the page but I don't know the correct one.

--Abbess Katherine 20:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Examples of Teardown Combinations

First Combination

• Avatar of Balthazar
• Balthazar's Rage
• Twin Moon Sweep

Activate Avatar of Balthazar and run into battle. Use Balthazar's Rage as you run in to get an initial wave of Burning. Once you have enough adrenaline for Twin Moon Sweep, use it to strip off the enchantment, hit your foes twice, and set them all on fire again. As a bonus, when you remove Balthazar's Rage, with Twin Moon Sweep you'll gain back over half the adrenaline needed for your next Twin Moon Sweep.

Second Combination

• Aura Slicer
• Heart of Holy Flame
• Pious Fury
• Reap Impurities

Use Aura Slicer to inflict Cracked Armor and Bleeding to your target and follow up the damage with an initial hit from Heart of Holy Flame. Get a few hits in on your foe with holy damage on their lowered armor, then strip it off with Pious Fury. When you strip off Heart of Holy Flame, your foes will be set on fire. For even more damage, wait until it almost runs out before using Reap Impurities.

Third Combination

• Lyssa's Haste
• Mystic Twister
• Irresistible Sweep

Run into a group of foes and use Lyssa's Haste to interrupt them all. Activate Mystic Twister while enchanted with Lyssa's Haste to deal a large amount of damage to all nearby foes. Then use Irresistible Sweep for strong guaranteed damage and another interrupt!

--Falconeye 09:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

PvP

Since its empty, I'd just like to leave a few comments before heading to bed. Overwhelmingly, PvP Dervishes favor Avatar of Grenth with Grenth's Aura and Corrupting Aura, for the life stealing and Disease, and the Ebon Dust Aura sword Dervish, for its strong spike capacity and ability to lineback essentially without trying. With less frequency, I've seen Avatar of Lyssa builds using mass enchantments with rapid tearing down to quickly steal energy, Avatar of Balthazar builds for quick iterations of powerful teardown, scythe attacks, Pious Renewal builds taking advantage of the instant-recharge of PR to fuel teardown skill indefinitely, and Wounding Strike builds with Chilling Victory and Harrier's Grasp for a strong, fast-recharging spike capacity, albeit with a few energy qualms.

Across the board, the skills which I identify as vital to the good Dervish are Heart of Fury, Wearying Strike (unless replaced by Wounding), Aura of Thorns, Lyssa's Haste and/or Rending Aura, Crippling Sweep/Victory, and either Harrier's Haste or Fleeting Stability for sustainable/near-sustainable IMS which can be used simultaneously with Heart of Fury. All Dervish build, almost without exception, rely on rapid application and teardown of the new Flash Enchantments to spike targets, condition stack, and generally abuse the instant cast time of Flash Enchantments in tandem with the Avatars and teardown attacks. -- Oiseau | 06:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Role of the Dervish

Hi all, new here. Noticed the Avatars/Party support section was completely empty, I was going to add some information on the basics of Avatars, and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions or concerns before I did. Thank you. --Canisrufus 20:32, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Go for it! This page needs alot of TLC and unfortunately I'm no dervish expert; for those who are, they seem to have other interests besides updating this page. ^_^ --Falconeye 19:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Expanding on Stubs and empty sections

I'm trying to improve this article by expanding sections with little or no content in an attempt to improve this article. Please feel free to edit and improve any of the new additions. Reviews and editing are still needed all over the article. My goal is to improve the article to the point of removing the stub tags from all the sections making this a whole and complete article.

Thanks also to manifold for his/her excellent clean up, editing and consolidation of the article as well as Falconeye and others who have lent a helping hand.

Writters still needed for the following

• PvP
• Dervishes in Campaigns & Expansions
• Dervish Heroes

Brevity

It's nice that this guide is being fleshed out and actually getting some attention (when was the last time anyone cared about a profession guide?), but I fear that it's maybe getting to be too much of a good thing. Compared to all the other profession guides, this one is significantly longer...remember that these guides are designed for new and inexperienced players, so they don't have to be exhaustive. At the same time I'll admit that Dervish has become one of the more complicated classes to explain, due to their major overhaul, so I dunno. It's hard to strike a good balance between covering the material adequately and maintaining reader interest/comprehension. 76.78.119.104 18:31, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Longer isn't bad per se, but it's true that the article has become overly dense. Exhaustive in this case means it exhausts the reader, which isn't the best thing for an article that's supposed to be geared towards newbies.

That said, I think the current direction makes sense for the moment. I'd like to see the current set of editors finish their work fleshing out the full set of details. Then, and only then, it will be useful to review and rewrite the article. I think there will be enough material to suggest splitting the article into the newbie version and a related Advanced guide (or whatever we choose to call it).

Writing concise and targeted articles is a lot more difficult than it seems. It's always much easier to put everything down first...and separate the interesting from the essential. And I'm loathe to interrupt the current contributors because they are adding a lot of worthwhile material. Ask any successful author or filmmaker: they'll tell you a lot of good stuff ends up on the cutting room floor. In this case, though, I hope that we'll be able to preserve it in some form, though perhaps not in this particular article. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

We might be at that point already. None of the current group of editors really plays PvP much and I think the Dervish Heroes and teh Campaigns & Expansions sections are likely to be a long term project as our group plays through them again. I don't think either project would be hurt by tirming down, editing and splitting out the current article. No one new seems to be jumping in to complete those sections so if people are willing to start editing guide I think it would be okay to start on that now. 209.116.90.194 14:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I've removed some weird notes that seemed to imply that every single derv uses a specific set of runes (clarity, etc), and that everyone with a scythe uses Grenth's Grasp. IMO, this article should tell people how to play dervishes, not how to be a specific dervish build. There was, for example, a note in the Spear section that mentioned that spears should always have an icy mod to work with Grenth's Grasp. While this might work sometimes, I don't think it's important enough to warrant special attention. 69.249.223.63 03:05, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Grammar and Pinesol

I've attempted to clean the grammar up a bit (honestly, is it really THAT difficult to differentiate between "then" and "than"? Grr!). I've also rephrased some sentences that I thought were a little wonky. 69.249.223.63 02:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I've run through again, removing mainly improper "thens", and getting rid of a few over-specific pieces. I think some pieces of advice were a little too specific, telling the user how to use the author's favorite build and not how to play a dervish. Finally, I corrected a few misspellings ("interrupts" seems to be a common one)69.249.223.63 22:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Builds

While I'm aware the examples of teardowns are useful, do we really need so many? This isn't gwpvx, and I feel that section is getting a little too much "bring this skillset = win!", instead of "here's how dervs work". 69.249.223.63 20:03, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Clean Up

Attributes, Heroes and Secondary Professions done, Role of the Dervish will be next but i'll continue it tomorrow. Feel free to adjust or correct a few things if needed. Equipments and Campaign and Expansions left to clean. Besides some final adjustments the rest has been done. Da Mystic Reaper 16:43, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Imo the attribute section is still too long, and could benefit from the removal of the elite descriptions (or perhaps the creation of a "notable elites" section...) (strategies will want trimming too).

The campaign section can be summed up in three lines with:

• Prophecies - Use holy damage in kryta - offers pretty much nothing
• Factions - Use banishing strike on spirits. Get Aura of Holy Might - offers little else.
• Nightfall + Eotn offer the most to the dervish.

+None of the other professions have this section at all. -Chieftain Alex 16:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

If it is not found on the other profession guides then we can simply remove the campaign section. The attributes can be thinned out yes, the mentioning of elite skills can be removed. Strategies need to be clear to understand, i tried to reduce the needless info as much as possible but for them to be clear you still end up with quite alot of words. You need have have good skill examples and be clear about of how it works and what be used around them. I added the 6 most popular and well known dervish build and tried to explain them with as few words as possible, as well as the important skills and what to avoid sections. Altough i do not believe it is a sin for the Strategies and Tactics section to be longer than the others. If you want to learn and play the dervish effectively you got to have a clear understanding of how they work and more imporantly, what works and what not and why it works or why not. Da Mystic Reaper 18:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Tear down and feeders section "effects to wield and allows it to adept and be effective in almost any situation" adept should be adapt right? Honestly me and spelling and grammar never works out well in most cases, but adept seems wrong there maybe. Am i even in the right section or should this have gone with gramma and her pine scented cleaners? Whatever the case is me + mainspace = bad idea. Durp da durp 02:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

As i mentioned already on the Hero Behavior talk page, i am quite bad with grammar so if you see any typo that i left behind when i rewrote the article feel free to correct them, or if you see anything else that needs to be adjusted/corrected. Da Mystic Reaper 14:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Guide to playing as a dervish#Dervish Heroes

Check Revision as of 13:08, 15 September 2011 by Special:Contributions/99.110.117.246 which was posted after the last known dervish update.

I just did by first test and my hero didn't use Test of Faith, but did use Vow of Piety renewing it. The IP does not provide any back-ups for such statements: "do not use efficiently". Yoshida Keiji(talk) 10:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Equipment Clean Up

What part of the section is a "no no" for details? When I rewrote the article after the clean up I made sure to keep the info as minimal as possible while keeping it clear for new players to understand. If it's about the upgrades explaining what they do I added the info to make clear what the upgrade does so new players will better understand the combined effects of the upgraded weapon. Experienced players will know what the names of the upgrades mean and what they do and can visualize the combined effects but I doubts new players can. If that is the reason for the clean up tag then the clean up tag will be removed since it is useful info for new players and uses the same amount of detail as the teardown and feeder skill lists, which have not been tagged for a clean up on detail. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 15:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I was hoping to add my suggestions to the article first, so I won't have to write things twice. But:

1) I dislike how runes and insignias are being spoon-fed. I would like to suggest insignias but leave it to each player where to put what. (Like you did with the scythe section)

2) There's more than just Blessed. Admittedly, this is the best in most situations, but one could think about elaborating about alternatives.

3) The part is written purely from a scythe wielder's perspective. There are also dagger spammers and even caster dervs.

4) I absolutely disagree with putting a very expensive rune of of Minor Scythe Mastery or of Minor Mysticism into the helmet (new player -> low on money). People might want to experiment w/ builds and going for 3 or 4 hats can be expensive.

5) "Since you need to invest in both Scythe Mastery and Mysticism it is most advised to have a hood of either of these 2 attributes and upgrade them with a rune of the same attribute. The second rune is best equipped on the chest." Why? I see no reason for this explicit suggestion.

6) There are some (minor) grammatical errors there. Scythe has a MAX damage of 9-41. Minor stuff.

7) I dislike how an ideal 4 weapon set is given: Think non-scythe users. Think experimenting with build. Think spoon-feeding =/= good (in my book). Keep this, but as "some suggestions / ideas for scythes" or some such.

8) Some builds use major or superior runes.

That's from the top of my head and quickly glancing over the section. Might be more. Steve1 (talk) 15:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I just looked at the 2 articles you mentione (feeder, teardown) - what's the problem with those?

I only noticed this article because an anon was copyin from it for the Ele guide. Are there otehr guides out there to check out? ;-D Steve1 (talk) 15:41, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

After going trough all of your 8 points I can say that some points are fair but most of them have little to no benefit for new players but are points for more experienced players. Let me explain it to you first why I went with a spoon fed style. First and foremost the guide is aimed towards new players who will have a limited amount of skills and of course money and build knowledge. In this guide I mentioned several types of builds for both PvE and PvP and the insignias and runes have been selected based on those builds and are not build independent. The reason it is heavily aimed towards the scythe is because it is the primary weapon of the dervish and the weapon you start with and the example builds are all scythe builds (excluding tanking and running). The Strategies and Tactics section ends with a sentence that promotes build creativity and build diversity and encourages new players to be creative with their builds so the article as a whole is not purely devoted to the scythe. However build diversity, especially when using secondary profession skills is something for the more experienced players, that include getting the right equipment and skills and is not something new players will be able to do for a reason you mentioned yourself: a lack of money and materials. Being able to make more diverse builds with your secondary professions also requires a greater amount of knowledge of the available skills of multiple professions which requires a player to have experience and is not something new players are likely to be able to do. When the new players become experienced players and have more recourses they can buy new skills of their secondary profession and start experimenting with their builds and equipment. When I rewrote this guide build creativity is something I greatly considered adding because I am a big fan of original builds and messing around with them but because of the reasons I mentioned here I decided to keep it limited, since in the end it will be of little help to new players.

After that wall of text let's talk about the choice of runes and insignias. The reason I went for the Blessed insignia and not the Windwalker insignia is because a dervish will at most times have at least 1 or 2 enchantments on him/her. More often 1 when using a teardown build so their is no difference in armor rating both runes give. Since Blessed requires only 1 enchantment for +10 armor and Windwalker 2 for +10 armor I decided to go for Blessed. About the placement of the runes and anon user has already adjusted that but has not (yet) updated the text about it. Anyways, the reason why scythe/mysticism in on the hood is because starter builds will always require an investment into these 2 builds, heck any basic dervish build requires these 2 attributes to function. That anon user has placed to second scythe/mysticism rune of the shoes and the vigor rune of the chest which is a change I support. For the earth/wind prayers being on the hand is because it is a cheap armor piece and you will be swapping them quite often. The selection of these armor upgrades has also been based on the skills a new player receives and the build he/she can make with them without having them all unlocked, I looked it all up to be sure of the most ideal setup for a new player.

This big wall of text should cover all of the points you made. Let me know if their are some points you disagree about or find unclear. And about the grammatical errors, be bold. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 17:56, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Before the Dervish update, Windwalker was king: more stacked enchantments made for a strong dervish. Now I'd argue that Fosakened is superior, as it allows for maintaining minimum +10 armor raitng and pulls double duty in anti-enchantment areas. --Falconeye (talk) 22:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Maybe for PvP but Forsaken conflicts with the armor buff effect of Mysticism in PvE. Any dervish in PvE should at least have 1 maintainable enchantment for the needed armor increase, the effect was added for a pretty good reason. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd also argue that Blessed is best most of the time in PvE. BUT: It makes most sense to give a little discussion (pros cons) of the 2 derv-only insignias and belssed and survivor. Something like: Usually armor > health. And often blessed > windwalker, because windwalker needs 3 ench to outperform blessed which is difficult due to the tear-down mechanic; but could be viable with the right team-build. VoS derv, orders necro, Aegis in backline ... whatever. Steve1 (talk) 10:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

A few very quick points:

It's not about being bold, it's about time. :(

As mentioned in my first wall of text, I think Blessed is the best choice most of the time. Since this is a guide, I'd still at least discuss the Derv-only alternatives plus Survivor. (Player could try a VoS derv with an order necro hero and a backline that keeps up Aegis almost 24/7. So even after the intro of tear-downs it's not unthinkable).

Reg. runes:

I still don't get that argument for sticking "of Minor Scythe Mastery or of Minor Mysticism" in your hood. I'd say your arguments give reasons NOT to do it:

Since both runes are "always" being used - put them into armor pieces which will NOT be swapped. And the head piece is the one piece I swap the most for all of my chars.

Newplayer has limited money but wants to experiment. So in the course of their experiments they buy a hood for each derv attribute. And then they should spend more than 20 platinum (mysticism and scythe mastery are both expensive) in order to outfit themself? Put cheap runes into the head slot instead! Makes much more sense!

Also, since this is for both PvP and PvE: As you mentioned, PvP melee classes tend to equip the -20% blind and cripple runes, which PvEler most likely won't. Therefore you'd need 2 equipment recommendations now. So instead I'd just give a rundown of the most interesting options and let everyone decide for themselves where to put what and what to bring.

Runes of vigor are expensive: Reccomend to equip the "best" affordable rune, including the hint that PvE Dervs get a free minor vigor from a quest (if it's not there yet).

Steve1 (talk) 10:46, 30 May 2015 (UTC) out ;)

I understand your point of experimenting with builds but don't forget, this is a guide of how you learn to play as a dervish and how to experiment as a dervish. I already mentioned it earlier that experimenting is for the more experienced players.

The reason why minor mysticism and minor scythe mastery runes are on the hood is simple, a dervish rarely needs to swap hoods. A warrior will need multiple headgears for the 3 different weapon types, an elementalist will need different headgear for the elemental attributes like the other caster professions. A dervish rarely swaps a hood because the focus lies on the scythe and teardown combo which requires at least scythe mastery and mysticism. Even without a teardown heavy build a dervish will always need a good investment into these 2 attributes regardless of the type of build. Earth prayers and wind prayers are the attributes that are most swapped for the feeders and utility skills and don't need as much investment as scythe mastery and mysticism, the reason why those 2 runes are on the cheap vambraces. Any beginning and experienced basic dervish build will always have the attribute points focused around scythe mastery and mysticism and will still have enough points left to experiment with earth prayers and wind prayers skills to see what works and what not. Experimenting with a different attribute investment is something for the experienced players, it is not something you teach new players (not experienced players who start a new dervish). More diverse builds and it's documentation is something that belongs on PvX and not in a "how to play" starter guide. I believe Falconeye made a good decision to add a PvX link in the Strategies and Tactics section.

About the insignias, I can expand the article a bit to include the options and the pros/cons of Blessed, Windwalker and Survivor insignias and add the last 2 as viable options. The Rune of Clarity is also mentioned in this article as a popular rune used by martial classes but not necessary for the dervish because the dervish has very effective condition removal skills. The Vigor rune will also be adjusted from superior to most affordable. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 12:26, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Just for the sake of conversation, I'll tell you why I believe windwalker is the best insignia for a derv (pve pov): When is it that you need the most armor? When you're taking damage. And when you're taking damage, you're more likely to get a bunch of enchantments applied on you by your backline (and yourself). I.e. while Blessed may give an easily maintainable +10 ar, windwalker gives you the most when you actually need it. Jeree95 (talk) 22:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I'm fine with your arguments reg. not swapping the hood. (Well, kinda)

And obviously, if you need to swap any armour, it should not be the (material) expensive body and leg armours. But you seem to have a very strong preference for the gloves. 1) Shoes are always 100% identical in costs. Is there a reason for your preference? 2) Hoods generally seem to cost the same as well. I do remember that in some cases headgear costs differ. So why your preference for the gloves?

Notice how 4 folks posted here and we got three different opinions reg. insignias? ;-P

I also disagree w/ your assessment that experimenting w/ builds is something for experienced players. I think that experimenting is one of the strongest and most fun parts of GW. My absolute very first char (W/R) experimented a lot with different builds. Going so far as wielding a bow (Hey, that was 2005!) or trying out a pet warrior build (2005!!!).

One (hopefully) last thing: I (personally - and I might be 100% wrong) get the impression that you kinda consider this page as "your" page. It isn't. Anyone can edit it. Anyone has the same right to do so.

Cheers, Steve1 (talk) 10:38, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I fully understand your point of experimenting with builds and trying out a large variety of combinations with your secondary profession since I also enjoy doing the same thing. But the thing is as a profession starter guide it is meant to teach new players how the dervish works with dervish skills. Quoting myself from the reaction I gave to Falconeye below in Compromise section: "What does a dervish do, how do dervish skills work, what identifies the play style of a dervish." Playing a dervish with a pet and a bow or daggers can be viable and fun builds they are not part of the type of builds that fall under the core play style of the dervish which this guide is meant to teach. Therein lies the reason to my claim that experimenting is something for experienced players, what my intention was when I rewrote this article is to teach new players the basics of the dervish and how you play a dervish as a dervish. Not to teach a dervish how to play as an assassin or a dervish playing a ranger but a dervish playing as a dervish. When new players have learned these basics and understand how to play a dervish as a dervish they can try out different variations. Using your secondary professions skills and experimenting with them is fun but it teaches you nothing of how to play as a dervish. When you look at the ranger guide and the assassin guide, they are filled with PvX build examples and info that is popular in meta gameplay but completely useless to starting players and teach nothing about how to learn those professions. That is something I removed from this guide and want to avoid adding to keep the page true to it's purpose.

When you said that you are getting the impression that I concider this page as my page, let's say you are about 85% wrong and 15% correct. Since I put a lot of effort into redesigning the profession guide I do have a feeling of "connection" to it but at all times I do not let my personal feelings influence any discussions or additions to the page because I know I'm not flawless and can make mistakes or oversights. Don't forget, thanks to the discussions we are having the armor section has been improved (even with multiple opinions). When there is a change that I consider that is unneeded and does not belong on the page I will always talk it out in the discussion page first and see if there is a valid argument for the change.

About my preference for the vambraces over the shoes, well that is something personal that did snuck into the page. The main reason I prefer swapping vambraces over shoes are the EotN non-profession specific hand armor such as Chaos Gloves, Destroyer Gauntlets and Glacial Gauntlets. The reason is mostly cosmetic but also has a practical reason to it. These different skins allow me to quickly see what type of rune I have equipped when I want to change my build and are easy to select in the inventory without looking at the stats they have like you have to when you have 3 vambraces of the same skin. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 14:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

As if you couldn't get multiple headgears of different skins. So yeah, that's all personal habit imo. Any of the three cheaper armor pieces can be used in the same way (I myself switch the headpiece and use the same gloves and shoes most of the time) Jeree95 (talk) 19:46, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Compromise

Any additional or complexed information regarding the 100s' of build/loadout combinations might be better served on Martial weapon. This article should maintain "a beginner's guide: how to be an awesome primary dervish for dummies" attitude; and would make it intimidating and unwieldy for newbies if we overload them with "too much information". It should remain clear, clean and concise. --Falconeye (talk) 22:26, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

True to that. One more important point is that it is a "dervish" guide and is about how you play as a dervish. What does a dervish do, how do dervish skills work, what identifies the play style of a dervish. A dervish uses a scythe and fuels his attacks with enchantment. A dervish using Zealous Vow with Jagged Strike, Fox Fangs and Death Blossom is a dervish mimicking an assassin, it is a viable and fun build but it's not the type of build that you identify the dervish with. As with any profession guide the builds and equipment should should be those that identify the play style of their respective profession, that can include secondary profession skills. And even those builds should be limited to simple basic builds that allow new players to properly learn the profession's play style and not complex PvX type builds. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

In relation to the Caster weapons/Martial weapons, and the <profession> guides, should we use transclusion? And if so, which would be the "home" page regarding equipment loadouts? --Falconeye (talk) 20:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That depends on what type of info you want to put on the Weapons guide page. If it's for starters only you should use the guides as "home" since the weapons guide will be nothing more than a collection of info from the profession guides. If you want to expand the info of the weapons guide beyond starter and include weapon sets for experienced builds then the weapons guide should the "home" since it will offer extended information regarding the professions. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 15:22, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Of each relevant page, how likely are they in repeating the same information? The martial weapons are very focused, while the caster weapons come off as 'cookie cutters' (i.e. Rit would be "use a general-purpose staff/bow...; Ele use "high energy set"). Either way, its more efficient than copy-pasting every other page with 'main article/see here/more info'. --Falconeye (talk) 08:37, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Starter pack builds

Now, what is up with the builds Falconeye. Since you copied them from my sandbox 6 "Starter Build Dervish" let me tell you the reason why I made them. The first Istan build was made to see what skills and build diversity is available to a starting dervish using a teardown based build. It is basically a "core" build with the focus on pressure that allows flexibility trough it's optional skills, the list of optional skills is also an important part to it. The list allows me to see what type of builds a starter dervish can make and also what armor upgrades are most ideal for a starter dervish.

I had the intention of adding this build to the guide but decided not to because you also need to be consistant with the content of the profession guides and when I made the "Starter Builds Elementalist" I realized just how much info you will end up adding to a page when the builds are added to the core professions. Not to mention that every player will have his or her own ideal and you will have a big chance of conflicting opinions about the builds and people adding his or her own builds. Having a base build to work around with is not a bad thing but discovering your own builds is an important part of GW and helps build creativity of new players. Unlike an ideal set op equipment I don't believe that spoon feeding builds for regions will be beneficial to new players since you have a chance it will hinder build creativity.

Another problem that will arise with the core professions is that these build are focused purely on skills from a single campaign. When new players have completed the starting area and reach a port town you don't know if they will travel to a different campaign or EotN and get new skills not available to the campaign their character originates from. Simply said, it takes too many "idealistic" scenarios that it is unrealistic for the region builds beyond the port towns. It may work for the dervish in Kourna since Kourna has the avatar elites which focus heavily on the teardown mechanic and offers good skills that support pressure based tear down builds but not all professions have the same quality of skills or receive the same amount of elite skills per region. Comparing the dervish elite skills to the paragon elite skills you receive in Kourna. The dervish get Avatar of Balthazar, Avatar of Dwayna, Avatar of Grenth, Avatar of Lyssa, Avatar of Melandru, Grenth's Grasp, Vow of Strength and Reaper's Sweep, Pious Renewal in the Consulate Docks mission and even Vow of Silence can be captured early in the Sulferous Wastes. The paragon gets Crippling Anthem, Defensive Anthem, Cruel Spear and Cautery Signet, 10 elite skills for the dervish against 4 for the paragon in the same region. in Kourna the dervish has much better build options than the paragon even though they are from the same campaign and it is something you see with the other professions as well. Per region some professions receive much better skills and build options than other professions and will make it very difficult to keep the build content of the profession guides consistant.

In the end all of that just makes it a no-go to put such a thing in a profession guide. If you still want to document builds for the new players I advice you to make a separate page for it that shows builds per region before the port towns for all of the professions and add a link in the profession guide to the starter build page. You could also merge it with the starter equipment since builds and equipment are mutual. But it should be limited to starters only to prevent the page from becoming a PvX page. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 13:22, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I strongly second not adding entire builds to the wiki, unless the article needs to depict a core of various builds (as seen at dagger spammer). A guide to playing a profession is never going to depict a core of various builds (unless said profession is extraordinarily imbalanced).

That doesn't mean full builds have no place on this wiki whatsoever; think of prevalent meta builds such as beast master, Imbagon, and bomber. - Infinite - talk 14:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Why does the dervish get so much love? --Falconeye (talk) 08:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Builds 2.0

I'm against posting builds on the guide, mentioning the skills which type of build/playstyle requires should be enough. There are very few optimal versions of builds which makes them very subjective to changes regarding which area you go it and for learning a profession it's best to let players experiment themselves than giving them a template of a build with the idea that it's the build they should play depending on the playstyle they choose. Also, those big skillbars it just looks ugly on the page. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 11:15, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

The entire article is extremely long-winded and could be a lot shorter. Removing all builds is a key aspect of that goal. In "guides to playing" we should reserve skill "bars" to depictions of gameplay mechanics, in the case of Dervishes how teardowns function and the synergy between enchantments and teardowns. - Infinite - talk 11:39, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I added that section during the clean-up with the purpose of explaining how you can play as a dervish and with which types of builds you can use to fulfil the basic roles in a team (pressure, spike, nuke, tank), and which skills are used for those builds as a guideline to making an effective dervish build for both PvE and PvP. The Important skills and What to avoid sections are made to compliment that to avoid a new dervish player into falling beginners pitfalls when it comes to making a dervish build for the first time. Explaining each build/role properly isn't done in a few words so it ended up being a large section. Since the section above explain the teardown/feeder mechanic and follows it up with the enchantments used for the mechanic I decided to make the Strategies and Tactics section build/skills first and role second. Looking back at it it would have been best if I reversed that order instead and focused on the roles first and then the and build/skills those roles require, would be more sensible as well. Maybe if done that way, the article can be made shorter. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 12:24, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Glad I'm not the only one. Steve1 (talk) 20:22, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Iv'e rewritten the Strategies and Tactics section into a Build and Team Roles section where it now focuses more on the team roles you can plays as and which skills are used for it instead of focusing on builds based around certain skills. I'd like to have some feedback on it please if it's good or not and what needs to be improved. Da Mystic Reaper (talk) 16:56, 1 September 2018 (UTC)